but they aren’t they literally have said that the mtx will not be as overpriced as POE. one coin equals you will be able to buy things with 1 dollar. this game dos not have a publisher and most studios do so I really don’t see and issue with is. if you don’t like the system don’t use it I will be more that happy to support a team I know is capable and deserves my money. it is not like anyone is forcing you and it is not predatory like poe. predatory is making you buy stash tabs and QOL. also as stated by devs as well you will not have to buy mtx to make your character look cool the 3d models whan the game is finished will look just as cool as mtx.
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Thats a weird example your using there… Last time i checked indie games are not getting whole new seasons like Path of Exile does. Path of exile is meant to play forever Chris said.
You can only achieve that if money keeps getting in right…
This is the reason why indie games are not getting a 3 month super big update chock full of new content. So i heavily disagree with you on this one.
Also, indie games are payed games. You pay them you play it and they will update it and in time they might make DLC if enough people bought it. This can take years sometimes…
You see the difference?
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This is so absurd argument I don’t understand It can be used to these days especially in multiplayer scenarios.
Money can be flowing without spamming ton of “it’s just cosmetics” MTX BS. I have no problem with money flowing towards devs. So I guess I understand the difference pretty clearly, but maybe next time don’t paint situation in black and white colors only and just because they want have seasons at some point, does not mean they have to do what PoE is doing.
GGG are an indie company, or at least they were until they were bought by Tencent, though given that Tencent don’t seem to be providing the usual publisher support, i think it’s still reasonable to say that they are independent of a publisher. They just aren’t a small indie.
Tencent is actually doing quite a lot in case of PoE, they completely put eastern market under their umbrella, they are working on separate client, which is actually better than what we have, they provide support for mobile app (and I am sure it was their idea in a first place) and GGG is definitely not indie anymore. There is TONS of cash flowing from Tencent side. Yes, Tencent is not typical publisher, GGG still have western market under their control but they can’t pretend they can do anything they want anymore. Tencent can close them at any point they want.
Are you sure about that? 'Cause I’ve read through GGG’s statutory accounts, granted their most recent ones are dated March 19, but we should get their March 20 ones soon.
And lose most of their investment, when GGG are raking in a metric ****ton of cash.
They are majority shareholder, just because GGG will go down, does not mean PoE will go down too. They can restructure company and continue with PoE as they want it. This does not scream “independent” to me 
Eastern market will be always more profitable, especially with PoE’s style of MTX, but PoE in east is still very young so we will have to wait and see for more concrete numbers, but don’t be surprised if years to come eastern PoE’s market will outgrew western market. This is world we are living in.(sadly)
They are the majority shareholder, but that doesn’t mean they can do whatever they want. The amount of control they actually have would depend on what was agreed in the sale which we’re unlikely to find out. I wouldn’t be surprised if Tencent had a decent amount of control over how the eastern version worked (given they have a cash shop) but not the league content & minimal control over the western version (which would align with Chris saying that GGG are “independant” of Tencent).
But as you say, only time will tell.
Iam sorry to say it but you clearly dont understand how free to play games make there money. It is because of Cosmetics and convenient items…
Or they do it by adding seasons beside the cosmetics. Fortnite is one of the biggest who showed its possible. So tell me what you want but that is just wrong what you said.
How could money be flowing in POE without the cosmetics, without the supporter packs without the convenient items? Please tell me lol.
By the way GGG is way past being a indie company. Even before tencent took over the team has being growing really fast. You can read the posts of the POE devolepment team.
Sorry to say it buddy. Anyways. This discussion turned into 1 about POE while my point just was to add 1 cosmetic gear to the existing supporter pack (without any changes in the price) so more people might buy it. Because sir… every game company needs money to keep the game rolling.
Box price, expansions, seasons passes, vanity items… “LOL” bro… seriously… Are we really still applying free to play economy on paid product? I have hard times to understand, what you are not getting there. “But it would not be eno…” - it would. Just make good game and it definitely would.
Failed Wolcen has enough money to be running for few years at least without single paid content.
In majority shareholder control,(especially with big majority as 80%) they can vote out GGG about anything. Of course they gave them freedom with content and season, why they would break something, what is working. Also whole monetization model is just perfect for eastern market, so they wont protest of course, but imagine GGG would love to move onto another game, remove some predatory monetization or something like that - Tencent could and probably would stop them
“Indie” is not about size of the company.
It depends, what if GGG had assigned the IP to, say, Chris personally prior to the sale (or as a condition of the sale)? Tencent could vote out the board of directors & install their own people to gain direct control, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that cause the **** to hit the fan & a lot of the staff to leave then Tencent would be trying to develop the next league without most of the important people. They could recover from it, but it’d take time & if Tencent did that, I’d imagine they’d have a player revolt (in the west at least) on their hands as well.
you said about my point on how POE is making money that money could flow differently… so i replied nope.
Again i dont get how you make a big point out of adding a cosmetic to a existing supporter pack so the game might benefit from it. But iam done repeating myself.
I agree that Last Epoch doesnt NEED to do it since it is a paid product but that wasnt my point. I just hope the game is getting out there since the lack of competition of great new games in the genre.
Your right about Indie is not being about size but i think that at that point they were not Indie anymore already but that is just guessing. Just like it is guessing you saying Wolcen has enough money to be running for a few years.
Yes they did really while in the start but when people saw (me included) how unfinished it was beside the potential the game has in some aspects they refunded the game so i wonder how long they could keep the game flowing. You might be right you might not be right we just dont know
Maybe, maybe not, who knows. I was just pointing out they are not independent anymore. And while I am not sure who exactly owns PoE IP here, I would bet Tencent would not invest so heavily into it without getting control over PoE. You wont become 80% majority shareholder just for “investing into company and hopefully earn some bucks back” … 80% is company acquisition by definition.
I know and I said you are wrong.
I don’t think it’s really big point. In worst case scenario, LE will be just another game I will skip because of monetization, but I would prefer not so that’s why I am bringing my side of argument here. Look, supporter packs exists, they are fine as they are and unless they will say us they are not selling enough, I don’t see a point to add armor cosmetics.
You are bringing the point here that they have to sell armor cosmetics, because they wont earn enough money otherwise… which I would expect to hear from EA exec, not community member of some indie game.
If you like paid armor cosmetics, feel free to say it, but don’t try to rationalize it by made up necessity.
You should really read the posts again.
I brought up the cosmetic points up being needed for POE as a free to play game. Which you brought up wasnt needed… but oke… haha just read your own post.
The discussion about that wasnt about LE. LE. is a payed product as i said a few times before… i never said it IS needed in LE so i dont get it but this discussion is useless. You seem to stubborn. You can disagree on things ofcourse but POE not needing cosmetics etc to get money so they can pay the devs and getting leagues out is just facts. So i dont care if you disagree to be honest.
If you dont believe me do your own research… i guess 
anyways this discussion is closed. The discussion should be about LE. were going to off topic.
Well, this akward…lol 
I am just rereading whole conversation and we both were indeed talking about different things.
Anyway, for this one part, I know PoE needs MTX never argued otherwise, but I would argue they really don’t need these expansive armor visuals. There is still tons of things they are monetizing. And they are really pushing it to extreme - just think about it, they grew from garage company with 6 team members to over 60 people in nice new office building without Tencent. Do you really believe they “need” so much microtransactions and cosmetics?
I thought they grew much larger than that without any “assistance” from Tencent. Also, given that Tencent bought the shares from the original shareholders, all of that cash would have gone to the shareholders (Chris, etc), not GGG unless there’s been an investment in GGG from Tencent that’s not on their stat accounts (which there wasn’t in the FY1819 ones).
To be fair, I don’t know exact number, I just remember, when they were moving to new building, they had over 60 people. It’s very possible they got much more after this period of time.
For where the money went, I am pretty sure shareholders put big part back into company - at least according Chris, he was putting money into company from own pocket for years - whatever this means for them
Anyway, as meesterg said, we are really deep in offtopic territory and honestly, I thought that my two days debate here was about LE and potential monetization of LE, but clearly it was not so :D… I am sorry for pushing thread into this direction.
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No problem, if @Kiss_Me_Quick is allowed to go off on one about psychology, I’m allowed to do the same about accounting.
I’m not surprised that Chris and others were putting money into the company back in the day (early on in a company’s life, it’s all about having enough cash to pay your bills on time-ish), but all I can say is that there’s no disclosures of it in the FY1819 accounts (which I would have expected) so it’s possible that it was all paid back (which would be reasonable given the amount of cash GGG has - Kiwi Dollars 85.7m!) & IMO, unlikely that the cash from Tencent was put back in (GGG don’t need the cash) since that would either be as a loan to the company (which doesn’t need the cash) or as an investment which would make a mockery of Tencent buying the shares from the original shareholders if those people are then going to go & buy more shares from GGG. Just doesn’t make sense.