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Player getting stunned - what does this add to the game?

The issue that is presented here really is not about glass-cannon/squishy builds.

Quite the contrary, even when you did invest into a lot of defense, stun is still something that affects you and makes it feels bad, because there is not a lot of things you can do to counter that mechanic.

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Yeah you are right but on the other hand I think it needs to stop somewhere. Right now I get the feeling that over the time people managed to be able to counter everything somehow after it was a topic on the forums.

The stun formular needs an overhaul and the bumbers need a tweak and players as well as enemys need to be stunned every now and then. Just play PoE without stun immunity it’s the same thing but I think in LE it just needs some number crunching to find a sweet spot.

Yeah, if you’re going to get stunned that frequently, you likely don’t have enough hp/ward to survive in the content you’re doing (given how stun works). LE isn’t like PoE where the objective is to go as hard glass cannon as you possible can to kill everything before it has a chance to spawn & kill you.

Stuns should be less frequent and maybe give players access to immunity for duration whether that be naturally through the mechanic or gear.

I agree stuns are far too frequent and it’s only gotten worse with defense changes. It’s not the mechanic itself that feels bad, but the frequency of which it happens.

there is immunity for a duration, 1s . it’s in the game guide, and i think it’s safe to assume that window was put in there so you would not get stun locked.

1s is definitely enough time to use a move skill and GTFO of dodge.

unless of course your move skill needs a target, LOL, in which case it will only take you to the boss.

Extend the duration, then :slight_smile: or as I said allow players to access a modifier that affects this.

Just here to add my support for Lone and wait for my snarky Llama comment.

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Ive played for over 1k hours and over 300+ Corruption and never notice being stunned in this game.

Compare to PoE where you actually get stunlocked to death in the first area in the game - stun isnt an issue at all in this game.

Try Arena

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I don’t know about the stun mechanics in other games. This is related to my personal experience in LE. It’s a topic many high level players talk about for months now (as already stated by some if those players above).

From my personal experience a VK with 3k health gets stunned regularly on 200 corruption.

He gets stunned very regularly from Arena waves around 200.

I’ve played a Sorcerer and Rogue on similar levels recently and they are almost stunned everytime they get hit.

It’s not always a death. But its very noticable when movement stops or skills don’t go off.

Maybe it isn’t an issue compared to other games that are even worse in this regard. For me it is an issue. For others, too, as the responses show.

I’m not sure what the answer was on the dev stream, but I have read through most of this thread, and I still think that player stuns are an important aspect of gameplay. However it definitely feels like stun avoidance is in a bad spot and that results in a sense of frustration as there’s no effective way of countering these stuns through your build.

The original goal with stun avoidance was to create a stat specifically aimed at mitigating stun beyond just acquiring more health and mitigation. The intention behind it being additive with health was to make it particularly useful for characters with worse defenses to help prevent them being stunned too often. At the moment it’s just very underpowered. This may be a numbers thing, especially as there has been a general increase in the maximum health of most characters. However even before this occurred it never really felt compelling as a stat, and I doubt the low defense characters for whom it was designed ever really considered it as a priority over more damage or just shoring up their defenses through actual health and mitigation. I think this means that we should reconsider the roll of stun avoidance.

An important point touched on in this thread is that it’s a problem if too much of the danger of high tier content arises from unavoidable small hits that you can normally shrug off, rather than more telegraphed heavy attacks that were designed around being avoidable. With infinite scaling it will happen eventually for players who can just keep avoiding these telegraphed attacks ad infinitum, but it’s definitely happening too early at the moment. Therefore it seems likely that instead of catering to the use case of a player low on defenses, a stun protection stat should cater towards players pushing difficult content that are too frequently being stunned by small hits.

This might not be changed for 0.8.4, as we’re getting rather close to that and there are a lot of system changes in there already that we need to make sure hit the mark, but it’s something we’ll keep an eye on.

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While this is true atm, why does it have to be?

Why does stun have to be there in the super endgame? Why not allow players that invesnt into endgame be able to immune it with high tier items. We will still die due to the scaling itself if we make a mistake, without the terrible feeling of dying to RNG.

There are already builds that have 100% uptime stun immunity, anythig that uses teleport for example. This builds die too, they just feel better and more fair to pkay.

The fact that some builds have FREE stun avoidance and some will never be able to get it, forces a meta component that makes everything else worst and less desirable to play.

The mechanic is already in the game, why not make it something players can work towards? Why not turn thi into something a player can aspire at? As a player, I like goals!

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Thanks for your response @Trasochi

There could be several ways to improve the player experience regarding stuns.

  • Adjust the formular so stun chance against players doesn’t escalate too quickly/early
  • buff the impact of stun avoidance in the formular, making it meaningfull to invest into this stat
  • increase the threshold that prevents hits from being able to stun the player
  • add sources of stun avoidance like
    • hybrid stats (+200 stun avoidance and 20% increased stun avoidance)
    • add flat or % increased stun avoidance to already existing affixes or add it as implicit stats on gear
    • add passives like "10% increased stun avoidance per 5 points of intelligence (for mages in this example)
  • add sources of stun immunity like
    • X seconds stun immunity after using skill X
    • X seconds stun immunity after using a potion (could be idols or belt affix)
  • add a blessing for flat reduced stun chance

I, too, would like to see the opportunity to build towards stun immunity. Not only for very few specific builds, but for every mastery. This adds the sense of character progression. And I’d prefer sources to add this on top of player power and not so much as a tradeoff for other defenses. We have that infinite scaling endgame so I don’t see that much of an issue doing this in regard to power creep.

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Hello.
I would like to draw your attention not only to Stun, but in general to some of the “secondary” means of defense, such as anti-crits, dodges, anti-stuns.

Maybe it would be worth thinking about a system that would unite them and allow for more universal defense?

For example, in some of my games I came across a system of dodges, which do not act “hit-miss”, but a system of gradations.
According to the principle “normal attacks turn into unsuccessful ones, and unsuccessful attacks turn into misses.”
For example. We have a low chance of dodging, we were hit, a normal hit turns into a critical or stun. It becomes clear to us why we received a crit, stun, or any other effect.

At that time, if we dodge an attack, it turns into a failed attack that cannot crush or stun.
This will make Dodge a more stable and important defense (for all characters), while avoiding “unnecessary characteristics”.

I would argue that ‘visually indicated / telepraphed cc’ should remain in the game. It shakes the “gameplay loop” by forcing players to react to a visual cue. When you see the glowing green/grey circles of the enemies who attack you, for instance, you know to avoid this. CC could exist in this capacity.

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I would like to add another aspect of a more casual player: stun avoidance is not really intuitive.

The percentages of Dodge, block, resistances are all really intuitive. If I get 1000 more health, I can easily comprehend how that helps. If I get 1000 more stun avoidance I have no clue what that actually does for me. Maybe now I have a slightly better understanding, because I stumbled over this thread and the EHP for formula.

But I have never invested a single point in stun avoidance, because i never comprehended what the value of my investment would be.

My suggestion would be to have stun avoidance as a percentage as a second layer, so that xx% that would normally stun me will be avoided. This makes it comparable with other defensive mechanisms.

To build upon the ideas of the community, it could work in a way that not a random percentage is avoided, but the “weakest” stuns, so that strong televised attacks might still stun you. Yes, I see the flaw in logic here.

If the cap for stun avoidance is at 75/90/100% is a design choice I don’t want to make.

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That goal is already accomplished by those abilities just doing damage. A loss of character control on top of it is nothing more than a more frustrating way for the character to take additional damage.

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I’m late to this party, but I agree with you. I think telegraphed boss hits should either stun OR do massive damage. Not both.

As for stun in general, it’s useless against bosses but can be effective against crowds. But against players - we only control 1 character at a time. If you could stun entire levels of enemies and bosses, that would be broken. So why is it acceptable to stun all of the characters we control? It is merely a compounding punishment for making a mistake.

Loss of control of your character is never fun. You cannot do anything about it. At least when getting 1-shot you don’t have to sit there and watch your character die to attacks you could easily avoid if you were not incapacitated. It’s like disabling keyboard/mouse/controller input for a few seconds. That’s not a great way to balance games, it just pisses off the players. If you are still alive, you should always have options at your disposal that you can actively engage to at least attempt survival.

This is my point exactly. If you want the big glowy circle to kill me when I stand in it, just make it kill me. Don’t make me mash buttons trying to get an ability off in a possible fraction of a second between when CC ends and I finally die.

I kinda like the idea of the opposite - make those big, telegraphed boss abilities all stun + some other effect like armor shred, marked for death, resistance shred, a DoT of some sort (and some damage too but not one-shot level damage). Remove stun from non-boss monsters, replace it with “bonus damage to stunned players”. Now, you need to avoid those boss AoEs or else get a nasty debuff, damage, and your butt kicked by the surrounding trash mobs.