I read the entire last crafting thread, and am interested in seeing where this thread leads, but I am genuinely curious…what Arpg are you referring to where crafting ALWAYS works? Most of us come from PoE, that sure as hell isnt the case there. Same goes With D3.
Perhaps I’m overstating “always” works. Let me say it this way - in PoE, there are types of crafting that always work, and if you’re going for something high-end, you know that there’s a chance of something not working out, but that’s not every craft. Also, short of Vaal orbs, most crafting doesn’t brick an item. Not basic crafting, at least.
Here, just doing something to give yourself a usable item risks ruining the item. Imagine in PoE you were bench crafting a +resistance affix on to a piece of gear and it not only didn’t work, but you also brick the item.
In Diablo 3, if you’re talking about the enchantress, eventually you’ll get what you want and it doesn’t brick your item - just makes it more expensive. If you’re talking about crafting at the blacksmith, there’s no chance of failure, just of less item quality. And if you have enough materials, you’re getting exactly what you want no problem.
So yeah, GG gear must be challenging to get, but I think where this needs to go is to determine what the power level is of a typical gear set and balance how frustrating it can be just to get something to T10-12 just to tide you over until you find those fantastic drops.
Now let’s also imagine you find that fantastic piece and it breaks on your first craft. Not because the system isn’t working, but because it had a little instability and you hit the bad number on the RNG.
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Fair enough, thank you for the clarification.
And I agree with you, we have to force ourselves to unlearn years of Arpg habits to make the most of LE. My eyes dont even see white/blue items by default in the genre anymore, in LE that is a mistake. Im glad Im not a dev, my 37iq has no idea how to appease all sides with this one.
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I’m glad I could clarify it. I’m definitely not talking about high-end endgame pieces, I’m talking about the equivalent of trying to get resistance capped after A10 Kitava, right? Imagine that you couldn’t do it because you couldn’t find many pieces to get you there, and when you did, you were breaking them.
The problem with the crafting system here isn’t that it doesn’t work as presented, it’s an issue of feel. I really think this is a vital point to address as it could hurt some player interest when the game goes wide release.
I should also throw out there that the crafting system (other than the critical upgrades) is largely the same as it’s been in spite of the addition of the rare class-specific affixes, which are an additional limitation on power level.
Crafting in this game delighted me from the first time I saw it and it still delights me. It is the first game of this type I played where absolutely 100% crafting upgrades as you go through campaign are your main source of upgrades. I can’t remember an item that dropped perfect for me.
it works so nicely with the loot filter. While levelling each character I’d have a filter that would highlight gear with the sorts of affixes I wanted and after I collected 3 or 4 bases I would roll them all and see if one got lucky.
I did this for all my characters and all my characters got nice gear and upgrades as I went along. I also cleared all the empowered monos on each of them. Exalted gear isn’t needed at all.
You hit a bad number on the RNG? I don’t understand what this means in maths.
If your craft has a 10% chance to fail and you craft 3 items, there is a 0.9^3=0.729=72.9% that all three will craft. Which is the bad number? I really don’t understand.
The system isn’t bad. I’ve played for over a year. If I hated the system, I’d quit. But there is a problem with how it feels to a lot of players. I agree that exalted gear is not required. I don’t think I implied otherwise, so I have to feel like you’re missing the point on the above. The issue is one of psychology. How do you make a system that is more punishing than many other similar ones in the genre still feel enjoyable and fair?
I think that one possible solution is to change the way that players have agency over the result - that is to say, more variety of glyphs.
Which is the bad number? I really don’t understand.
Using your math, the inverse - the 27.1% time that it does fail and the item that you finally got and were excited to put into your endgame set is now bricked.
Look, exalted items are given their own color scheme. They stand out. But of course, most of them are chaff. But that one time that this special item drops and you’re ready to take it to the next level… and you hit that rare time when your item fractures on the first craft attempt and is now useless.
The issue with crafting is that when you have 80+% showing it feels like it ought to be successful - whether that’s accurate or not. So when it is successful in that instance, you miss that dopamine rush of a success because it’s expected, and when it is not the failure is particularly noticeable and feels worse than it would if you failed on a 50% attempt. That’s the challenge that EHG has to address here.
The above scenario is logical in terms of how the system works but it can feel more punishing than intended. If people want to play a game for the purpose of self-flagellation, we have Souls-likes out there 
Plus, again, the class-specific affixes are pretty key now with the current prefix/suffix system and their rarity helps to control power level as well. It feels like a second look at the crafting system is warranted if these rare affixes are to remain.
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its too easy to get good gear in this game
You can get ‘80%’ gear in all slots real easy but chasing after an exalted item with the exact stats on the exact base probably wont happen and you can get good gear by level 60…so you end up going 30 levels without a meaningful upgrade and this is end game as well
no the challenge is what I wrote above, you can get very good gear easily but getting to that uber item probably wont ever happen - I dont get any form of rush from crafting, usually I just wind up saying ‘oh fuck sake’ when things break at 90% reguarly - crafting isnt fun at all imo, even PoE’s has elements of being more interesting but still soul destroying
Ive found plenty of exalted items ive rune of removal’d the affix away because the ONLY way that item was going to be an upgrade is if I have every affix I want AND its stronger
Take a polearm with max implicit crit and Melee crit and Physical damage as Prefixes, if my crit chance is 100% with this weapon, the ONLY upgrade will be T6-7 Physical damage and almost nothing else will be worth looking at it because I will still need the crit to hit cap, exalted crit doesnt give anything
Also another thing weapons are in their own category getting T6/7 added flat damage imo is much stronger than getting 30-50% increased damage when you have 600%
Crafting is easier than PoE but if the game doesnt even drop a base you want you wont progress any further and hunting for bases
Oh good, another crafting thread.
Is there a TLDR on how the OP thinks it can be improved?
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Couldn’t disagree more.
Crafting decent/mediocre items is incredible easy in LE… too easy IMO.
You can get any build going with T10-T15 Items and play empowered already.
Getting “higher than average” item is indeed relatively hard and requires you too loot and craft enough items, because alot will fracture.
Nope, he just reiterated how the system works and what psychological effect it has one players.
No suggestions as far as I can tell.
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Fair enough, though you do need to acknowledge that the sound of an item fracturing is but a pale echo of your soul when the item fractures…
Apparently reading is hard.
- Look for ways to increase player agency over a craft. For example, we could have a broader variety of glyphs.
- The crafting system is largely unchanged since the addition of rarer class-specific affixes, which act as a limit on power level. It’s worth re-examining the function of the system now that those are in-game.
- Since LE does a lot of things that are different from genre convention with crafting/items, include more education in-game to temper expectations.
The condescension in replies is really disappointing because usually this is a fairly positive place.
I don’t think there’s enough appreciation for how the “feel” of something can ruin an experience even if the system itself is completely fair. I think EHG is fighting the wrong fight on this front. Mike seems intent on proving the system is fair and I believe him. But whether or not it’s fair isn’t the real issue, it’s in how players will respond to the system. This conversation always goes about the fairness/accuracy, but I think we need to look at the point raised recently elsewhere -
If everyone–devs and players alike–are aware that this system is likely to poke more at people’s negativity biases while offering very little of the opposite, that sort of puts the writing on the wall in all caps. We probably need a different/better system that feels good to use. I realize this leaves a lot of room for subjectivity, but it’s probably better that whatever system it is doesn’t ask people to disregard basic human psychology.
If this issue surrounding the primary means of gearing a character isn’t addressed in some meaningful form I fear it will impact the success of the game when it hits wide release.
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I recall a developer (probably Mike) saying how he was working on adding more glyphs, specifically some rare ones with stronger effects.
It was probably ingame, not sure if it has been brought up on the forum.
They’ve said that on the stream as well as on discord.
And I think that’s a good start. That doesn’t mean that the quoted block in my prior post is less an issue. It remains to be seen.
Absolutely, we need to (wait &) see what glyphs/runes/etc the devs implement & what impact that has on crafting.
I did laugh when read this, but there’s definitely the other part of me that’s like, “Yep, as long as we pretend this is okay, it’s going to keep happening.”
I do think the other thread has taken a somewhat more productive turn, though.
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I agree, but no matter what you provide as crafting (or itemisation in general), there will always be someone who doesn’t like it & makes a thread about it. Someone complaining about something doesn’t mean that you have to change/scrap/etc whatever it is they are complaining about. This is the internet.
And no (putative denizen of t’internet), I’m not saying that what we have is perfect.
I’m disappointed that you see this thread as a complaint. I’ve been playing well over a year, so while I recognize that it’s not perfect, I’m certainly used to it and I gear the way I gear. There are times that gearing is frustrating in ways that differ from other ARPGs but it is what it is.
I’m thinking about, and this thread is a response to, all of the discussion that does come up about this, which seems geared towards convincing the complainer that it is, in fact, fair and transparent in how it operates. I think that it is fair and transparent. But the problem is that it feels bad and that will hurt the game without significant attention. I plan to do a great deal of evangelizing for LE when multiplayer hits and I want this to be successful. This is the ARPG that clicks with me. I want it to work. I don’t think that constant tellings from the devs and others that “it’s fair, it’s working, I tested it” addresses the larger concern. Something doesn’t have to be broken to provide a negative experience. And this is a pretty important facet to get right since crafting is the primary source of your gear in this game.
This is true, but there’s a huge difference between a system that just has some people saying, “I don’t like it” and one that specifically (even if unintentionally) targets players’ negativity biases.
I don’t “like” PoE’s crafting at all, but it’s not because it doesn’t work or isn’t interesting to interact with–it’s because currency that should be a basic aspect of how it works was made into an expensive/rare drop (exalted orbs in particular), which forces you to either not engage with it or engage with exploitative trade practices and/or “flipping” to be able to afford to do anything. There’s a lot more to that system in that game, but I’m just using this example to make the point.
LE’s crafting doesn’t do much to excite people, but does plenty to disappoint them. The other thread has gone down the “How can we make it better?” path, but I’m still open to the, “Should it be replaced?” idea. I’m not entirely sure which is better for the game in the long run, because improving the current system still is likely to keep this issue in it unless it finds a way to make it exciting to engage with.
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