New Season is horrible

So its different because you can keep the jars forever?

Betrayal has two options, execute and imprison.

That build up to a safe house map.

I dont see the connection.

My line of thinking is “Strong single enemy that is built on parts of your choosing” That sounds exactly like metamorph to me.

At the end of the day, to me it just sounds like all these players are again, bored of LE. the season didnt reinvent the wheel so no matter what they did they would be bored.

They cant have 1.2 level of end game shift every single patch, if thats what they expect id rather they just quit now so the game can actually plan and deliver around its core audience vs trying to cater to people who wont stick anyways.

Absolutely!

Because both provide a significant difference in player agency.
One feels like ‘it leads you along’ while the other feels as if you’ve got full control.

That’s not to be underestimated!

3 options, execute, imprison and free. Albeit it’s also more complex as the available possible results depends on the number of people still ‘alive’ from the attack, then their connection to each other as well as if they’re in the same safehouse-group.

This allows specific outcomes to be targeted to a degree, for example you can absolutely guarantee +1 level to someone when you got more then 2 people still alive, killing them will with a 100% guarantee raise their level.
Besides that you get specific options depending on if they’re friends or rivals, backstabbing ones or exchanging connections from people to enforce different outcomes.

Not really a lot in the LE system with primordials available… all you do is ‘get this part more’ basically. Which is fairly boring you gotta agree in comparison… the complexity simply isn’t there.

Fine system nonetheless as a basis.

Which in our situation the result is manyfold possible which allows a quite vast array of strategies. From target farming specific safehouses, to swift safehouse rotations to boss-access farming and so on. Whatever you need… and the setup for the specific layout is taking quite a long time if you’re far away from it.

Longevity is definitely there.

Yes, true! But it’s also really really reductionist as it’s solely focusing on the enemy and not on the mechanical result, which is more important for the player unless the enemy has some really interesting mechanics which lead to unique outcomes.

Which core audience?

EHG is a 100+ people sized company which provides a product that currently looses over 10% of the active playercount to the day before… that’s kinda harsh I gotta say.

Yes, PoE 2 has also - once again - screwed up majorly… so we cannot compare it even properly (also not yet since it’s not past the weekend and playercount dipping properly). You cannot compare 2 screw-up products and say ‘But they do as bad!’ It’s like comparing if the Rana Plaza or the Eitai Bridge (google em if you don’t know em) were better handled… it doesn’t matter since both were horrendously mismanaged.

You always compare it against a working product where people come back and which doesn’t have any atrociously severe issues.

EHG cannot support itself if Cycles keep on going like 1.3. It doesn’t matter if it’s the Cycle mechanic or the core product… it needs to become solid, as a released product.
And sorry to say… since it’s a released product the expectation (reaosnably so) is to provide a solid core product together with at least a decent Cycle mechanic.

This just isnt true really, games survive with 20k players showing up to updates. Aslong as cost is relative.

I dont know what ehg does spending wise, thats the real question.

Plenty of old mmos continue to be updated on a regular cadence to a 10k playerbase. So all that really matters is income vs spending.

So if the 10k players are spending, and they are not blowing through cash its fine.

I mean… you just ignored basically all economic aspects at once, it’s even baffling to see that.

What’s the difference in monetization methodology? What’s the difference in server setup? How many active workers are working on those respective products?

Just for a start.

Provide exact examples for the specific MMO and I’ll gladly point out their expected costs and differences in server structure needed to even support their game, hence the differently sized needs for hardware and bandwith.

Obviously old MMOs are able to support themselves on a vastly lower playerbase, though they also don’t have 100 workers dedicated to that specific product which has barely any monetization available (the MTX shop is laughably small) without any merch or anything else on the side supporting them. The LE franchise is miniscule.

If you compare it to server structures then also there’s a vast difference. For example GW 2 supports 200 people per area, which is the limit of their specific server setup. That’s a full machine commonly, a decent amount of players with the relevant updates happening.

LE is a ARPG though, it has direct input which needs to work in milliseconds and precisely. You cannot use a predicitive method without severe downsides as most MMOs do and then simply sync with the client’s input afterwards should it divert too much. Both need to be up to date, which reduces the available capacity substantially. We’re talking about likely 10-20 people per server rathern then 100+. Hence significant higher upkeep costs.

If you go with very old MMOs like Wurm Online or Everquest 1 then you’ll easily see that those setups can support 200+ people easily on a simply home PC properly… a industrial server can likely support 2000+ even. That’s magnitudes of difference.

You’ll also hardly see a vast amount of official servers for FPS games because their bandwith needs are significantly higher then MMOs commonly are, which ramps the costs up. We’re talking 50-100 people per machine commonly, the hard limits for games like Battlefield usually.

And EHG does spending wise roughly 50k per month for their salaries (that’s lowballing it) with roughly another 50-75k for servers. Pre-tax even. That means they need to sustain a influx of at least 100k per month and I’m probably off by quite a bit still as I’m really lowballing everything there.

That’s if we only take the supporter packs (the most bought commodity of ARPGs as poeple are used to it) as income would mean a mandated sales-count of 3350 supporter packs sold per month. Which obviously is not realistic, MTX are also sold, some whales are there and so on. But for the sake to even it out (as a miniscule percentile of players spent beyond shelf-price anyway) I’ll put it in a fixed percentile of players actively playing the game that need to buy over the course of a Cycle (3 months).

We got roughly 50k peak during the weekend, a 50k peak means that we’ll have around 250-400k individuals playing. Obviously that drops substantially over those 3 months, but sales also happen in the first 2 weeks mostly, which has to be taken into account.
Hence just for arguments sake we’ll heavily inflate the number of monthly individuals playing to 150k for every single month.

That means from those 150k players we need to sell 3350 packs per month. The common amount of players actually paying into a shelf-price product is between 1-3% as much as I know (likely changed over time, got really old data there from studies over a decade ago).

That alone means we have between 1,5k and 4,5k potential payers. Which is barely drawing even.

If we take the reality that number is roughly 100k at best. The vast majority pays the pack for 10 and not the pack for 30. MTX payments in-game are generally a rare thing as well. It’s questionable if EHG is even drawing a net positive with 50k peak for a Cycle.

Now next up take into consideration that EHG hasn’t sold to Krafton solely for shits and giggles. There is a reason behind that, and that reason always boils down to money.
Be it money for expansion (which is miniscule visible only after the acquisition) or to sustain themselves (which is likely given the premature release which artificially created hype and hence monetary influx).
This points towards EHG hurting for money, seriously hurting for it. The ARPG live-service genre is a cutthroat environment, one of the harshest live-service environments existing, MMO’s are child’s play comparatively.

So the chance that they can sustain themselves in 50k peak as we see with 1.3 (which is by the way dropping, we haven’t seen a single increase since 1.0, only falling overall if the timeframe is taken into consideration) is very low.

Yes, you can hope and think it’s ‘fine’ for them, I do as well, and it would be great if it were! But the chance for that to be the reality is so so soooo low that it’s not worthwhile even to take as a chance.
Sadly so.

EHG is bleeding money, their product is literally dieing currently and they got a limited timeframe to fix it. That timeframe has since 1.0 become more and more narrow and the actions directly relate to the stress. EHG does create panic-releases since a while now, their pre-release quality wasn’t the best but their post-release quality is beyond atrocious already. They fumbled and they’re still on the ground after hitting it hard sometime between the last 3-4 years.

Yeah well my main concerns are 1. they have 100 employees.

That seems like overkill, the quality/experience does not match what seems to be 100 people.

Stardew valley is made by a singular person, and while update way less frequently, the quality of the product is quite good.

So I feel like they need to better use their 100 people.

And number 2, yeah selling to another company points to issues in funding that no one can deny.

But everything else is to much speculation on my or anyone elses part. I dont know enough specifics.

Like PoE1 has supposedly been working with a skeleton crew for years, but many of the updates were still good. So does one really need tons of money/people to keep the game running?

And I have 0 idea on the relation between arpgs and mmos in terms of competitiveness or server requirements. Other then that even modern mmos can sustain themselves on what people will call a “dead game”

And last, I have 0 idea on the spending habits of majority of users, the mtx in game is actually quite decent, i was surprised at how far the mtx has come to being actually decent. And I see lots of people in game with mtx, so I assume people are buying.

I still stand by my opinion that if this season is the straw that breaks the camels back, then no one was sticking around anyways, so it basically wasnt real to begin with.

Exactly, that’s the biggest issue there, absolutely so.

EHG failed to create a efficient content pipeline where everyone knows exactly what to do, when to do and how things change without interfering seriously with other departments when changes do happen… and they absolutely do happen if one wants or not.

No, that’s the point after all.

You can run it on a skeleton crew.
You can expand seriously when you don’t run it on a skeleton crew.

But EHG sadly didn’t solidify their position first but went the perfect way of failure… which is expanding before having their foundation handled, likely at the fear or misplaced thoughts of it being mandatory.

Yeah, that’s because the server structures are relatively simplistic.
You won’t be able to run ‘Star Citizen’ at home… that’s why that game guzzles up hundreds of millions in funds like nothing else.
But you can absolutely run your own private WoW server and easily have 50 people playing on it without it causing any issues.

It’s all a scaling issue. The more precise movement needs to be the higher the needs for the hardware. Having server and client synchronize all mobs and all inputs in nearly real-time with security measures on top of that is a large task.
Hence as mentioned:
FPS is atrocious to handle, that’s why Star Citizen costs so much to sustain.
ARPGs are following after, not quite as precise and taxing… but still very heavy requirements.
More classic ones like Eve Online, Wurm Online, Everquest, Ultima Online and so on have a very high leeway, hence low amounts of bandwith used which relates to vastly fewer data… and hence less data needed to be handled by the server.

Less data is less costs, directly.
Stronger servers are needed for high quantities of data and the bandwith costs are also increasing with it.
Higher costs means more physical machines interacting.
More physical machines interacting means more upkeep for support personal too.

It scales heavily.

Yes, they are buying. Remember though that the threshold for someone to buy further into a game after a shelf-price is entirely different from a F2P game.

F2P has managed to build up a expectation of ‘Pay a bit so we can improve a bit’ as a baseline.
Shelf-price titles have still the expectation of ‘Buy it and use it without any extra forever’.

To a large degree, EHG will have to downsize very likely. They overextended like many many other companies.

A massive amount of players are inflated numbers from spillover happening. This means they won’t reliably come back again unless the game offers substantial improvements as the disaprity between their main game and LE will always be a make-or-break situation.

Sure, some ‘stick’… but the spillovers don’t pay, they use their funds to pay their main game, not the backup one.

No he really didn’t. He stated twice the important bits:

Sorry, three times.

Now, I know I’m only an accountant & not an economist, but in my experience, companies with higher income than expenses do tend to survive (assuming all orher things are equal & nothing comes along to fuck them over).

Yes & all that boils down to income v expenses, no need to get into the details on this.

And all of that paragraph boils rown to “LE’s probably more expensive to run than an old time MMO”, but it in no way disagrees with his statement.

Doesn’t change the broad economics that income>outgoing=good and income<outgoing=bad.

You know this so I don’t know why you’re trying to argue that his statement is wrong.

That’s not really an issue. If they’re running at a loss they’ll get a credit from the local tax authority (US).

Unless they have a conversion ratio on the higher end, probably yes.

That’ll be because the skeleton crew doing it are highly experienced. EHG weren’t when they started this & I’m not sure if they are now either.

I think the differences between EHG & GGG (including early-stage & current) would make for an interesting project.

2 Likes

Every build will use primordials. If you have no useful uniques for it (and there are several general purpose ones that should fit most builds), a single T8 affix will always be an improvement over a T7. Even a T8 health will be a big improvement.
Most builds will run at least 1 exalted item, so there’s no real reason not to run a primordial in any build.

The only real difference between them is that you keep “leftovers” in metamorph to run later. When you reach the end of the map, you have a few choices for each gear slot from what dropped and you run them. Same as rift beasts, except they’re delivered over a longer period of time.

So the only difference between both is PoE lets you keep the “path not taken” bits to run a new one later and LE spawns a few random ones on their own (if you take the woven tree node for it).