But there is a level limit to affixes. Most shards can’t drop at level 1.
Nothing in nightmare was hard. Normal was hard because your build wasn’t online most of the time until you reached act3. Hell was hard because of all the immunities. Nightmare was a walk in the park with any build. I think you’re misremembering it.
This is a very flawed premise. There is a whole spectrum between being inept and being a master at what you do.
You can be not inept and yet not create masterpieces. You’re competent and you create decent or good games.
For every Half-Life there are hundreds of games you don’t even know the titles of because they were just decent and only a handful of people played it and/or enjoyed it.
And for every Half-life there are dozens of Titanfall 2, which are good games but far from masterpieces.
Sure it does. You don’t need to have a linear scale. You can definitely have T1 0-50, T2 50-150, T3 150-200, etc. As long as it fits the required progression, you can do whatever the hell you want.
So you don’t need to add new tiers nor do you need to have affixes with different tiers from others. Trying to do so is just applying band-aids and using the least effort solution.
Only if they’re exclusive.
Exalted gear competing with legendary gear and with sets (crafted or pure) is mutually exclusive. And even then, there isn’t a superior one, as we can see from multiple builds that use all of them.
If they’re not exclusive, you simply use them in parallel. They’re cumulative. So they compete, but each in their own space.
That was a bug/exploit and it has been fixed. So treating that like the norm for the mechanic is disingenuous.
I don’t know how that relates to what I said.
99% of the games that have affix tiers use “Tier go up”. PoE using “Tier go down” is the exception, not the norm.
“Tier go up” is what players are used to and what they expect.
Shards, yes.
Are they allowed to exist on items though?
Then it was Hell, mis-matched the difficulties.
I break up the large picture into the details generally, and there you can see the differences.
Much like GGG is inept in properly categorizing learnings from league mechanics for the future (don’t give people limited league-related space. Don’t enforce people to stash dozens of items for future use of the league mechanic. Don’t make the core outcome a highly variable drop like Talismans or later the Kalandra instant Mirror in that league) so does EHG. Their inept part is to provide content which is working fluidly with pre-established systems, instead de-validating some or piecemeal-patchworks that are great at first sight but really bad in detail.
Each company has such parts existing, and the higher the complexity the more likely it comes out.
Yes! Which is my whole point though.
Nowadays just ‘decent’ doesn’t cut it. Not with a high-investment game like LE. How much do workers cost? How much do taxes remove? And how much will be leftover? There’s a friggin reason why the gaming industry is bigger then the adult industry but nonetheless has the vast majority of studios shutting down. If your 5 year project only gives you 15k profit after everything then well… how will you eat the next 5 years while doing the next project?
For the customer that’s all not visible.
You’ve got it still backwards.
What’s less effort? A ‘through the bank’ generic Tier system?
Or one hand-tailored?
I mean… the answer’s kinda simple. One needs high effort to set up… the other needs massive effort to keep simply going. The hand-tailored one is the setup one btw.
If they’re exclusive… they can’t compete. Because they’re exclusive.
If it’s not exclusive it competes related to perceived value. Simple as that.
You still get them semi-regularly. Not broken amounts… but once you have a single one you don’t lack the options to get more.
That shouldn’t exist for Uniques plainly spoken.
Which is a completely false perception from your side.
In E-Sports ‘Tier 1’ is the top-tier for example. Hence solely from that perspective (which is a highly visible one, competition always is) that means it’s also considered ‘a norm’.
Same with units in games, commonly the best units are ‘Tier 1’ depicted, many lists focus on that aspect.
What you fail to take into consideration is that there’s 2 distinct states of ‘tiering’ existing at the same time.
For something getting better usually the lowest numbers represents the best outcome. Hence why for fixed amount of outcomes pre-determined the tiering applies in a backwards manner, hence counting from the high to the low number.
For something progression-wise usually tiers are used in a forward manner to depict the numerical progress, especially since it allows easy introduction of new content without shifting perception. Something which in a system that’s rigid doesn’t bode well usually (Like Affix tiers). Here hence we get for example PoE maps since we already have it as examples present generally: Tier 1 to Tier 17.
Both are widely accepted and a ‘norm’.
The reason for the backwards tiering in Affixes is to allow the distinct implementation of different tiers per Affix to allow non-universal scaling methods… and hence provide a clear-cut goal. A error PoE 2 made where this has been removed with their forward tiering of Affixes, something which GGG needs to reverse to PoE 1 methodology as it’s detrimental. They forgot the basics of the basics when it comes to tiering systems there.
For the shard or existence on the item though?
I mean… not dropping as a shard is a given, since shards are itemized. Rolls on items aren’t though.
Then you missed mine on the second part which you didn’t quote. For every half-life, there are dozens of Titanfall 2. It wasn’t a bad game. Players enjoyed it. It had moderate success. It’s still rated as a pretty good game.
It’s far from a masterpiece, though.
It’s not “You’re inept and your game sucks” or “You’re not inept and thus your game is a masterpiece”.
Obviously the first one. Because the hand-tailored one will also require multiple tweaks over time as you add new content.
So you have a higher effort of implementation combined with a similar level of maintenance.
If you have a 5 tiers affix and you feel the need to add a 6th, why is that?
Is it because you need a power increase at endgame? You can simply tweak numbers.
Is it because their current progression is mismatched and you need to adjust values? You can simply tweak numbers as well.
The truth is that if your affix can’t be tweaked properly with just changing the scales for each tier, then it probably wasn’t properly thought out in the first place and adding a new tier is simply adding a bandaid to patch it up.
It’s actually the opposite. It’s because they’re exclusive that they compete. Because you have to choose one over the other, so you choose the best one. So they’re competing for best in slot and you can only use one.
The norm is simply:
-Is the best result “Number go down”?. In that case, the norm is T1 is the best.
-Is the best result “Number go up”? In that case, the norm is that T1 is the worst.
I know what the reason is. I’m just saying PoE is the outlier among games that use tiered affixes. Thus, it’s not what players expect when they start playing the game.
Much like LE is an outlier in how they handle resistances. It’s not what players expect when they start playing the game.
I’m pretty sure it’s the same thing for the affix to show up on a drop. I never see the rarer affixes drop until I’m way further into the campaign. And I’ve done the campaign dozens of times.
Which is true, but nonetheless the people working on Titanfall 2 were inept on some design and those on Half-Life 1 weren’t for the time. Valve followed everything other games presented and which was taken as a ‘good thing’ and made that into a complete game. Others had a piece here… a piece there… but Valce made a whole.
ARPGs have the same situation nowadays. Every ARPG has ‘a piece here, a piece there’ but not a single one presents a ‘great whole’ experience for their target-audience. PoE 1 has severe information relay issues which doesn’t fit to the ‘high mediocre to top-end playerbase’, D4 has implemented chase uniques which are utter bollocks for the ‘low end to low mediocre playerbase’, Torchlight makes you pay for progress and their UI is crap and breaks regularly. And LE is all over the place.
The only games which did properly execute with their playerbase in mind are Grim Dawn and Chronicon. Chronicon is a 20-30 hour game and was wildly successful for what it was Easy itemization, easy gameplay, easy progression, easy crafting, play upwards as long as you want beyond finishing on top (The good endless scaling mechanic, after everything else is handled). Grim Dawn is a masterpiece in design and does exactly capture the ‘mid-tier audience’ engagement perfectly. No overly intricate crafting systems. No massive difficulty mess-ups… and a long-term collection engagement which nonetheless is over after a while. With the combination of a mid-complexity passive tree, a mid-complexity auxiliary system (the Constellations), mid complexity itemization (matchup up proper pieces with components and augments together) and so on. Nothing was extremely shallow… nothing was extremely complex.
The other games simply can’t compete there. The only reason PoE 1 is so successful is because it has a bazillion mechanics which keep you engaged despite the design shortcomings. And it was made at a time when no competition was on the market, able to establish itself before it died since players went over to ‘greener pastures’.
PoE 2 is successful but only because of franchise power, staying power is not sure yet, their 1 year release goal is simply bollocks and the were inept in handling that accordingly.
D4 was inept to provide the QoL of D3, their own game, and hence got bashed left and right.
Once more, a good game can have inept aspects… and a bad game can have masterpiece design bits.
Unless you look at the thing as a single whole… which is nonsensical as it’s extremely reductionist.
If you think the generic one won’t then I don’t know what to say.
It’s a difference in initial investment of resources versus upkeep.
The hand-tailored is easier to adjust, the generic is easier to initially design.
As mentioned:
Finding out the scaling of 5 Tiers is unfeasable for that specific Affix related to progression. One needs low amounts at the beginning, relatively high compared to others in the middle and low again on the end-spectrum of content for some reason (combination between multipliers, combination between individual skills and modifiers, maybe damage conversions interacting with it for examples).
So… your 10 - 25 - 45 - 75 -115 fire damage scaling hence can’t be taken over to… let’s say void as an example. EHG finds out since for example the void skills are primarily related to low-range to mid-range skills unlike fire that the value of the base skills combined with a high amount of melee-based enemies close to the campaign middle (mid level tiers roughly hence) doesn’t uphold well in progression feeling. You one-shot enemies in a cluster as they come close before they can dish out damage as you deal AoE a lot unlike… let’s say fire skills which have been designed as mostly single-target or DoT based variants.
So what now? Make it 10 - 20 - 35 - 80 -115 instead? Since end-game they work? Kinda sucks, doesn’t it? Now you need a 6th Tier suddenly. Instead of being able to get the usual ‘75’ at that stage you’re only allowed to get… 50. 75 is for later, can’t be acquired. But 45 was too high, now it’s… 35. You now have a 10 - 25 - 35 - 50 - 75 -115 scaling before ‘drop only’ applies even. Relevant levels applying, crafting also applying. Level requirement based on power related to either the item or your personal level (which is supposed to align with content run after all).
Hence you don’t feel like a wet noodle beforehand since stuff’s simply reduced. You don’t also feel OP beforehand since stuff didn’t get pushed backwards to reduce solely the scaling during that stage… but you also stay relevant in power-scale during the follow-up since you can and will access the respective tiers at that stage to uphold you progressing properly with the difficulty.
And you wanna say EHGs system was well thought out from the beginning?
With their balancing? With their itemization issues? With their progression pacing issues?
I mean… yeah… in a alternative reality maybe, and if everything was congruent and fitting from start to end, but that’s not the case. The issue is that in the current state a complete rework of either the scaling of power needs to happen or a complete rework of mob-based power and content power does.
I dunno which is easier, but it’s overdue since years now.
Ah, that’s how you mean that. Yeah.
That I agree with. I took the exclusive from the acquisition side, you took it from the provision side.
Ok, then the list of ‘big’ looter ARPG’s:
LE - Forward Tiering, universal tier count.
PoE 1 - Backwards Tiering, non-universal tier count.
PoE 2 - Forward Tiering, non-universl tier count… dogshit feeling.
D3 - Tierless.
D4 - Tierless.
Victor Fran - Tierless.
Titan Quest - Hidden (doesn’t use numbers, only Affix names)
Wolcen - Hidden (but Forward) Tiers. Also higher levels made you actively weaker, dogshit design
Torchlight - Tierless.
Tochlight 2 - Tierless.
Torchlight Infinite - Backwards Tiering - non-universal tier count.
Chronicon - Untiered.
Grim Dawn - Untiered.
So, the ones which use Forward tiering are either universal tiers (Last Epoch) or they hide the tiers. The others are Wolcen - which we don’t even need to talk about this disaster of a game, great campaign but unfinished, shoddily finished afterwards and end-game was a shit-show beyond end, not to speak of core progression scaling - and PoE 2, which fucked it up because nobody got a clue where the end is supposed to be now. T5? T7? T12? Who knows!
The ones using visible backwards tiering are PoE 1 and Torchligh Infinite. By the way also the best received games of the genre besides LE… with PoE 1 being the actual game which introduced the backwards tiering system as much as I know, unless you have another game doing that before then… or even showing any tiering at all.
Outside of the visible ones usually tiering systems were used solely by the playerbase to wrangle in the non-descriptive mess, which went relative to either power-scaling (top-tier stuff was T1) or when having multiple ones following each other via the progression-scaling (starting with T1 ending with Tn).
I mean, that’s why I said “also”. Both will require adjustments over time. Arguably, both will need the same upkeep, since you usually want to change either system when introducing new mechanics, so…
Why would it suck? I see no problem in that.
I think it’s much simpler to create the same number of tiers for the same number of thresholds. You’re checking for level 20/40/60/80/100 or whatever, so you balance the tier of each affix with that in mind. Each tier has a place in the progression that is clear cut and similar to all the others.
Having different tiers for each affix means that one affix is checking 20/40/60/80/100, another is checking 35/70/100, another is checking 10/20/30/40/…/90/100. That is much messier to balance.
The second bit with ‘the same upkeep’ is different though.
Create something which has a boatload of potentially adjustable values attached to it, then go along and change a few things directly related to it along the way (shrines, Nemesis, Lizards) and test out which would need more effort to upkeep.
I’ve worked with such a system already, albeit in production. I worked to program the microcontrollers for a modular production line and had this exact issue. The initial effort invested for the non-linear and non-fixed one is causing less effort overall since not every bit influences the new situation in the same measure. Makes finetuning easier and actually quicker when it’s not that rigid.
So… you see no problem with a 100% - 75% - 130% - x% scaling? I mean… that’s a prime way to get a scaling mechanic to behave all wonky and awful and feel like crap.
The point is solely that at times adding a extra measurement point which is not similar to all others can cause absolute miracles in outcome.
As for the different checks… no… you’re thinking as if all are ‘the same’ from the get-go, then obviously more points would be a bigger mess. I agree there, 100%. The issue with Affix values is that each Affix has a distinct positioning in a game… and not each of them commonly affects the outcomes in the same manner. Differenct scaling, different introduction and different pace of progression of each makes for a more smooth experience for the player. And the percepted effort you’re speaking about is surprisingly low.
Why I’m saying this is very important. It allows a multi-pronged approach to the design rather then a ‘one fits all’ one. The ‘one fits all’ is obviously easier to handle… as you need to only keep track of a single thing… but it feels… inadequate, same-ish. Which for a player is a net-negative. You got 500 skills and all 500 feel like the other… and the distinct differences cause them to ‘break out of the system’ as it’s a rigid one.
All skills in Last Epoch purely scale off of base damage, there is no nothing in the direction of a ‘damage effectiveness’ value included that makes any sense. EHG has not even remotely looked at their affixes and their damage effectiveness yet it seems.
That’s why usually you design such systems with ‘checkmarks’ of some kind.
Going off on a example tangent here
As an example related to Meteor (950% effectiveness) and Fireball (125% Effectiveness) on the Mage (since those stuck in my head with several people making comments about Meteor builds):
If we look At Fireball the outermost points focus on either DoT Profilferation, AoE through multi-hit (Flame Burst), Defensive measures, extra projectiles, Crit and Stun.
Meteor focuses on either crit, more hits through mroe projectiles, Secondary hits (Shrapnel) and a little AoE or upkeep.
So the core aspects for damaging enemies are vastly different there, but they all scale from the core aspect of base damage. Obviously a meteor which does multiple impacts and has crit is vastly stronger then one which focuses on upkeep, defense and secondary hits instead.
The same goes for conversion of Meteor, 80% MORE damage + crit? Just ridiculous after all.
So people basically always go into damage conversion to gain at least 97% more damage, which is the base crit amount already for 6 points. Then they go onto multicasts (Twin Meteors) for 5 points + 3 extra for a total of 5 potential hits. That means Base damage * 5 * 1,97 already, for mana 188% mana cost. Meaning 188% mana for 985% damage. Which means each mana point provides 524% damage compared to the baseline already. (14 points investment).
The last 6 points then are obvious if we solely go for damage. 8% base crit and 90% crit multi. Meaning 13% crit chance for 290% damage. Which is a general 37,7% DPS boost total (I intentionally ignore World Ender… you always take World ender and only 3 points in Extinction, you’ll only play a mana stacker with meteor, easier math, less situational and skill-based). Bringing it to 721% damage per point of mana.
We’re talking about a skill offering 190 base damage here. Without mana reduction nodes hence 103 Mana per cast. Means 1,84 Damage/Mana base and with the improvements 13,26 Damage/Mana base.
That’s how you decide on viability… and from here… you scale! Where it becomes utter nonsense right away when comparing it to a main baseline skill like Fireball.
Vilatria’s is meant for Meteor. Let’s go minimum roll. 60 Flat and 200% Lightning.
60 Flat is not 60 flat, it’s 60 x 9,5 = 570 Damage.
200% also is not 200% (if I got that right) since it’s now 200 x 9,5 = 1900%
That alone makes your Meteorite suddenly deal 760 Damage with a modifier of 19 x 7,21 = 137.
A total of 104k Damage without investment. Mind you that’s roughly 252 Damage/Mana.
Now with Fireball? 25 damage base. 3 mana base. Baseline hence 8,33 Damage/Mana.
The usual route to go is also Lightning conversion because of Liath’s Hence 8 Points towards that. 35% more. 3% crit. 35% crit multi.
We’re checking it for solo-viability though, not trigger one. So the follow-up is different (Usually Fire Spray right away).
4 Points 20% cast speed.
3 Points Mana Sphere 9% more, -3 Mana. (Potentially free skill for now).
4 Points Lightning Shred 100%
1 Point Homing… done!
Total: Endless mana supply, ok.
44% more. 3% crit. 35% crit multi. 20% cast speed. Potentially with max-res enemies (basically non-existent) 700% damage. (25% base, -75% minimum, hence down to it 6 times extra.)
Hence the end-values are: 25 x 1.44 = 31,68
With 8% crit and 235% crit multi = 18,8% damage. So… 31,68 x 1,188 = 37,63584
With 20% speed = 37,63584 x 1,2 = ~45 Damage… wow! So much!
We got no specific weapon available, the best option would be ‘Culnivar’s Claim’ for that build if we go with the same investment (only a weapon) into it. Since defenses are scuffed (no mana usage put into Ward) it’s kinda mandatory.
We hence get 38 + 16 = 54 Lighting Damage x 1,25 (effectiveness) = 67,5 Damage.
We get 90% Lightning damage. So 90 x 1,25 = 112,5% = 2,125 Multiplier.
We get 90% crit. Which makes it a 15,2% crit chance. So 15,2% crit with 225% multi = 34,2% DPS = 1,342 Multiplier.
Meaning we get a 25 + 67,5 = 92,5 Base with 1,44 MORE, 1,2 speed, 2,125 inc, 1,342 crit.
92,5 x 1,44 x 1,2 x 2,125 x 1,342 = 455,8 Damage.
Really… woooow… we compare a 104000 skill with 455,8. Yes, one needs mana, but it got AoE, it got options for sustain upwards, it got everything.
With the 7 times multiplier it’s still only 3190 Damage, and that only for enemies which are absolutey max res and we shred it to the absolute minimum… which I don’t think happens ever.
So don’t come with ‘Balancing is hard!’ when a random player (me) can do that in 1 hours lazily on the side and immediately sees the issue in power between them.
All of EHGs skills are a similar utter disaster when it comes to baselines. It’s a joke, and I’m absolutely sick of people always white-knighting involuntarily (since like you they never mathed stuff out) to say ‘But balancing is soooooo haaaaaard!’.
Nah, it’s not, not to get a rough baseline existing while putting a single knowledgeable player in front. There’s a damn 4 month expected Cycle-cadence. That means 40 hour weeks with 4,33 weeks a month. That means ~170 Hours a month, which means a total time of 680 hours possible for a single person to deal with that level of crap we got.
Even with a 50% work-rate since companies seemingly aren’t able to let people to their damn job rather then mucking about with useless crap left and right it’s still 340 hours of that… which relates to 340 skill combinations checked… which is all the major existing ones and beyond
Half it again for checking with specific uniques through the board above that.
Now make a testing environment which lets you simply drag&drop them in while it math’s it out for you… hurray, you got yourself a 1 week job to do that crap at best. For the core aspects.
Ending example tangend here
So either this baseline premise of rigid values is removed or according top-end balancing happens. Which never did, not once in the lifecycle of the game. Zero, Nada, Njente, Nul, Cero, Sifir, Nula…
It’s utterly baffling. It’s not like those things are any ‘high concepts’ related to game balancing. It’s 101. Literal basics for this genre and overall more complex itemization systems. I can understand it in games like PoE 1 where the combinations are a nightmare of variable coming together… and even they get it magnitudes better then EHG ever did. LE has less vairance in Affixes. Less variance in items. Less variance in skill-setup and generally a vastly lower variance in build possibilities.
Just wanted to update that I finally got my 2lp void/multi slam, and can now farm uberroth consistently. Got lucky with a solid 2lp vise drop early on after clearing that slammed t7/t5 mana/atkspd (tried for 7/7 mana/shred, with two separate 2lp vises, but I’ll take the first consolation prize lol), and got a 1lp shatter I rerolled to be solid with strife echo.
Would still appreciate some kind of a mechanic in the future that makes slamming not so much of a hair-pulling experience, it took 9 attempts before I got a successful 2lp ws slam. Anyways, thanks for the conversation folks, take care.
I mean… that’s a prime way to get a scaling mechanic to behave all wonky and awful and feel like crap.