Need a forgiveness mechanic for lp2+ slam attempts after x many attempts. Multiple slam fails feel awful

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Hi, first time posting. I’ve now attempted to slam eight- that’s right, eight- LP2 World Splitters with melee void dmg / armor shred or crit multiplier, and every single one of them has bricked. I’m 0-8. It’s difficult enough farming both the LP2 WS and a sufficient exalted with t7/t6+ to slam, and this has completely killed my motivation to continue to play. I was really looking forward to finally finishing the last crucial piece of my gear to take down Uber Aberroth, but I just don’t have the heart to gamble slamming a NINTH LP2 WS- and it takes ages to find one in addition to a corresponding exalted to slam (I’m CoF). It goes without saying that Uber Aberroth is extremely difficult and is a huge gear check, and I’ve already put a ton of time into attempting him. I really needed that win- a good LP2 WS slam- to take it home. However, now that I’ve failed every single WS slam, I just don’t care anymore. I don’t like the feeling of being punished or wasting my time playing with the slam mechanic as it is.

My suggestion is that there should somehow be a forgiveness mechanic with slamming, where if you attempt LP2+ slams with a t7/t7/x/x or t7/t6/x/x exalted and it slams the selected t7/x (i.e., a fail) every roll up to a threshold, the forgiveness mechanic kicks in and it prioritizes the other t7 or t6 affix for the next slam. Could make the mechanic require more attempts for LP3 items before it kicks in than LP2. That way, you know that if you fail a certain amount, you know you’re incrementally working towards something at least, so it’s not all in vain. It takes FOREVER to farm the correct base, and then the correct exalted to slam, and failing eight slams in a row shouldn’t even be possible. Punishing is an understatement. I understand it could be abused by just slamming multiple LP2+ items several times up until the forgiveness mechanic kicks in then you slam the exalted you really want, but if you’re farming or trading for multiple LP2+ of the same item to slam repeatedly I don’t necessarily see a problem with getting a guaranteed slam after a set number of attempts. Or at the very least, introduce a mechanic to undo the slam somehow and retrieve the original LP unique item back to attempt a slam again in the future, that would feel MUCH better too, even if the mechanic was expensive or time consuming to complete. The problem is feeling like you’ve wasted progress and time- it’s not a good feeling. Knowing that you’re at least always working towards something, however slow or difficult, is preferable to me.

Anyways, thanks for reading. I really do enjoy the game otherwise, and maybe I’ll come back next season, but my motivation to play the rest of this season is gone and I don’t really want to farm anything else. I know that statistically it’s in my favor to finally get a successful slam after so many fails, but it takes hours to find an LP2+ WS, and it just doesn’t feel like a worthwhile endeavor gambling all that time spent. Oh well.

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Welcome.
You’re not the first or the last to be disappointed with failed slams.
We choose one affix on T2, so i would just expand it so you choose 2 affixes on T3 and 3 affixes on T4 and be done with it once and for all. No more RNG when you’re good enough for your item.

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I’ve mentioned it already as well that the 1 guaranteed affix is a fairly… odd decision from EHG.
I get the need for reducing the RNG frustration for it, but it’s absolutely not well done as it does make 1 LP crafts too easy and everything above weirdly different simply.

My suggestion for a change in this system is a ‘buildup mechanic’.

If you go inside with a LP craft you have no guaranteed outcome initially, what you roll onto a LP item is random. So 1 LP items have the initial 25% chance, which was fine.
Going forward though - for example to optimize rolls on a 1 LP or to improve to a 2 LP - re-doing the whole process is obviously annoying, you can end up with a potentially weaker item then you already crafted. That’s not good. So that’s the place which has to be adjusted.
To do that the system I got thought up is to allow ‘locking in’ Affixes by sacrificing Legendaries with fitting Affixes + Tiers on them.

What does that mean?
You’ve already crafted a 1 LP item with… let’s say T7 Mana Strike. Now you got a 2 LP unique and want to have T7 Mana Strike + Hybrid Health.
You get a base with those 2 Affixes, you go for the craft and instead of picking a single Affix as we do now you sacrifice your already crafted Legendary to guarantee the T7 Mana Strike to hit.

The goal there is to have any fitting affix available for picking and hence if your 2 LP ‘fails’ you can re-try it by putting it in and only picking the fitting Affix to allow once more a guaranteed re-craft.

This way a gradual progression without a worse state happens, solely reliant on the acquisition rate of the base items to be used for the craft. Unlike now where we got the need for the base items + RNG and it can turn into a net negative result. The guarantee is for a similar result at least, so it being always worn.

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I’ll just cut to the chase since this is where things are heading, we should be able to choose every affix that gets transferred. Some may call that a slippery slope, but it’s what happens. People complain about a thing, devs eventually make it easier, people continue complaining about said thing & request/demand further concessions and so the cycle continues.

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Why would it be weird? You had 1/4 chance for 1LP, 1/12 for 2LP, 1/4 chance for 3LP and 1/1 for 4LP.
Now you have 1/1 for 1LP, 1/3 for 2LP and 3LP and 1/! for 4LP.
All the change did was increase success rates and make them homogenous/symmetrical.

I don’t know if you should sacrifice the already existing one or the 2LP one you have. I think it should be a choice. Otherwise you’ll be forced to take worse rolls too often, which would also be frustrating.
Or maybe it could simply take the better of each affix from both items, that way you also improve the rolls.

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It does nothing but shifting the goalpost, it does nothing else.
Now you start at 1 LP guaranteed… all else is still RNG.

It did absolute jack to solve the underlying problem, one of the absolute worst ‘fixes’ I’ve ever seen design wise.

Does it help? Oh, absolutely! Still there’s a difference between that and good design.

Which would be too easy then, but yes, sadly the direction it’s headed.
A progression is good, it provides time investment, engagement and the feeling of success.

Effort should be included, but effort without a fail-state is what generally is wanted, which my solution would provide. No ‘reduction’ and the outcome is at 100% of the time something you’ll put onto your character, just not the optimal item possible… but still as good or better then the former try. With few exceptions.

Far less of an issue comparatively though.

And for the roll-range there can also be methods in-built. Either taking over the better roll… or re-rolling the value as minimum limit being the sacrificed value and maximum limit being the actual item used in the crafting as example.

This would also allow re-crafting of LP 4 legendaries for ‘perfecting them’. We already have the option to change the rolls on a unique item endlessly in theory… so I don’t see an issue doing the same with the legendary Affixes on it.
This would allow a multi-step and very veeeery time extensive progression system which has a ‘perfect outcome’ guaranteed with enough investment. We’re talking about thousands of hours here likely, but possible to do it piece by piece.

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You’d still have progression if you simply chose all affixes, though. You’d get a 1LP and an exalted, get your exalted affix in. Then you have to find the 2LP and another exalted, so you can place the 2 affixes you want. Etc until 4LP.

The only difference between this system and what you suggested is that yours still has RNG, since you still have only a 25% chance to succeed.
And if people are complaining because they have a 33% chance to succeed, your system actually decreases the chances of success.

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Do you actually have the base item + the LP item in the same quantity? Because for that to function they both would need to be reliably fitting to each other in acquisition rate.

Currently it depends on the base item Affixes (rare/uncommon/common) and the rarity of the unique itself. A Kestrel with 1 LP? Why even look at that? 3 LP is easy to get comparatively, and for chest armor you basically always use a rare affix, so you’ll very likely just throw all 1 LP and 2 LP items away anyway.

Progression demands the chance to not progress, mandatorily. The current system can produce worse outcomes then before… and that more often then better ones. You need to basically have all Affixes at once ‘fitting’ on a item since currently it means a ‘miss’ would otherwise cause a non-usable affix to be on it… and this way at least ‘something’ is on it, not actively ‘downgrading functionality’ from for example… a 3 LP to a functional 2 LP item for you.

People complain with a 99% chance of success, plainly spoken that’s actually to be ignored.

The task of the LP system is to provide a better outcome then the unique alone would be, right?
So, since that’s the case to make some uniques even worthwhile or an upgrade you need to have the respective items available… and then gamble for it.

The issue for people is that their already perceived reward is at risk, hence invalidating their time. So it means that the invalidation needs to be removed while not simply ‘skipping’ the process intended.

Why is that important to not skip? Because the game is already vastly too short for a live-service game and expediting that without extreme amounts of changes in content each cycle is leading more and more to a fail-state of the project.

If EHG wants to be especially fancy then have the legendary ‘remember’ the affixes potentially slapped onto it in total. So even if you miss… lets say your T7 rare affix then it would nonetheless be ‘ingrained’ to exist in it. So the second try would be a guaranteed success, adding the new affixes on top of that as ‘ingrained’ ones that aren’t put on but are possible to be put on.
So as you progress along the route the minimum rolls can be steadily improved and the choice of available Affixes to take over from a base item increases, making it more and more deterministic rather then RNG.

Because the issue isn’t that you can loose… but that it’s possible to loose over… and over… and over again. A system to avoid that plus not substantially reducing progression is more optimal then a simple skip.
Much like in Dungeons a proper rework to make them enjoyable rather then a portal to the boss would’ve been more optimal.

Your suggestion is the usual EHG lazy and bad design suggestion which brings the game over… and over… and over again into the same shitty situations again.

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I think I’m not understanding what you’re proposing, because from what I understand your system will still require this. Except that instead of guaranteeing the result, it will always have 25% chance on each step.

Again, this doesn’t change with your system. You always start at a higher LP.

Not necessarily. There are many progression systems which are cumulative, rather than RNG based. It’s a matter of preference (and how it’s balanced) which is best.

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It’s just a method for removing the perceived ‘negative outcome’ while leaving the system otherwise functional.

My proposal is to remove the guaranteed 1 LP choice and instead have a overall reliance on the base item… which for a vast portion of legendary crafts is the limiting factor anyway.

So imagine you have 2 individual 3 LP items, we’ll give each of the 4 Affixes a priority… so Prio 1, 2, 3, 4… for how much you want it on that item as a end result.
In the current situation you can guarantee Prio 1 with 100% but then potentially hit a total of Prio 1, 2, 4 for example. Which is fine. The second try though could theoretically be Prio 1, 3, 4… which is not fine. It’s ‘worse’ then the other craft, not at the same stage.

In my situation The first craft with prio 1, 2, 4 stays the same outside the 100% guarantee of Prio 1. But! The second craft now has a guarantee of Prio 1 and Prio 2! You already got that item. So you only can get te potential outcome of Prio 1, 2, 3… or Prio 1, 2, 4. The second is not worse, it’s ‘the same’, the other is an upgrade.

It simply cannot get ‘worse’ over time, which is all the system is supposed to do, providing a feeling of progression. Which allows to sacrifice the first crafted Legendary.

One thing coming to mind to guarantee it not getting worse is that you can choose if the rolls of the sacrificed or the new unique will be used as well. Overall roll-range optimization over time hence combined with the mentioned roll-range options in my former post.

You don’t need to though. That’s the point!

Imagine Your Goal is to have a Item with T7 Mana Strike (Prio 1), T5 Hybrid Health (Prio 2), T5 Int (Prio 3) and Health (Prio 4) as the optimal outcome.

You find a 1 LP Kestrel and you got a exalted item with T5 Hybrid Health on it. You have absolutely no use of the item unless prio 1 is on it though. Still… you go ahead and make that one into a Legendary! No matter if it hits or not. Why? Now you have a random T6, maybe 2 random T5 and… your Hybrid Health T5 ‘imprinted’ on that 1 LP legendary Kestrel which is a outcome.

Now you find a 2 LP Kestrel and a base item having T7 Mana Strike on it… you manage to get T5 Hybrid Health on it too! Optimal, right?
So now you go, put the 2 LP Kestrel in, put the exalted base in with both Affixes and also add the already legendary 1 LP Kestrel. It has ‘T5 Hybrid Health’ imprinted, hence you 100% guarantee that to roll on it.
Now there’s 2 outcomes:
You get T7 Mana Strike. All nice and dandy, success!
You don’t get T7 Mana Strike. Well, a shame… but no issue comparatively to before! You now have T7 Mana Strike and T5 Hybrid Health ‘imrpinted’, the item ‘remembering all tiers and rolls used for it in succession with the highest value each has’. So if you use the next 2 LP Kestrel with T7 Mana Strike and T5 Hybrid Health you have a 100% guarantee to get the right outcome. No more ‘33% chance for the second Affix’ at that point.

This puts the focus on the acquisition of repeated LP items for gradual improvement upwards… as well as repeated acquisition of better and better crafted fitting exalted items… or even preparation for a ‘perfect craft’ long-term.

What’s the potential there I’m speaking about?
Nothing stops you from getting 20 1 LP Kestrel and repeatedly adding ‘Imprints’ onto the item. The first gets your Prio 1 roll in T5, the second in T6, the third in T7… The fourth might be a perfectly rolled T5 one and so on. Highest value is permanently ‘imprinted’ and can’t be lower.
So over the course of time you can hence prepare a ‘sacrifice’ 1 LP unique which has all T7, T6 and T5 Affixes imprinted, each one with a perfect roll.
So then you go and make a 2… 3… or 4 LP craft and you are 100% guaranteed to get the fitting outcome. It’s no more ‘use 10 unique bases you’ll never ever get even 2 of in a Cycle’s time to get your outcome’, it removes that aspect. Now it’s solely dedication and preparation on the part of the player. The player has agency and is not at behest of pure RNG.

The acquisition of exalted items hence becomes a much more important aspect as roll-ranges suddenly matter too… and low LP uniques also become more valuable since they can store the Affixes for further usage.

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Need a forgiveness mechanic for lp2+ slam attempts after x many attempts

Absolutely not.

A LP2 WS isn’t “crucial” for you to beat the boss. It’s a luxury - a LP1 gets the job done 100%.

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Actually… we do, that’s why the guaranteed 1 LP slam was implemented.

It just missed the core issue completely :stuck_out_tongue:

Have YOU beaten Uber Aberroth?
I think you’ve missed the ‘uber’ part there.

2 LP is the minimum to beat Uberroth reliably, for most gear you want 3 or 4 LP even.

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Yes, they made it already significantly easier. Some friction is good and healthy for the game.

Yes, I did. In SAF HC even. Your point is?

Objectively not true. Especially not for ES, or whatever WS build OP is playing. If your build is at a point where 1 legendary potential makes the difference between kill or not, chances are you can just play the fight better and clear just fine.

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That people want moar powah without the inconvenience of potential downsides?

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Uber Aberroth is a very high skill-based fight, and it’s chaotic.
There’s a reason why no even 0,5% of the playerbase have killed uberroth.
Hence the only way for those not in the absolute top-tier of player-skill to have success is to make up for it via gear… so yes, for the vast majority of players it’s mandatory.

First of all… people always ask for more power, that’s a given, it’s the goal of the player and that won’t change to be asked for.

Remember, people are prone to ‘optimize the fun out of the game’ and this also represents itself in the asks towards the developers. Which is also a given.

The LP system has always been under scrutiny though, but not for the power aspect… but for the downsides.

So yes, people don’t want downsides. Failure feels like crap when you personally have no agency over it. You roll the dice, you can’t influence it, you just have to hope for the best.
That’s not good design and other games have for a reason provided alternative methods.

Pity-systems which accumulate higher percentile chances in the background to avoid loose-streaks, long-term resource accumulation but then with a guaranteed outcome… or my suggestion a gradual guaranteed improvement system in the background.

There’s a reason why solely RNG based systems are not used as much. Very few people actively enjoy those over others. Many don’t mind it nonetheless… but the amount of people actively disliking them long-term is very large.
It’s simply not a successful way to handle a game which mandates repeated returners, it’s a detrimental one actively which makes people turn away from the game.

Same issue GGG had with Betrayal recipe unlocks before they switched over to weighting the showcased rolls heavily towards those not yet unlocked.

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It is optional aspirational content. It is not meant to be taken down by every player. If you can’t do it, hey that’s fine! But introducing powercreep just to elevate you on a level that let’s you tackle said optional content defeats the purpose to begin with.

So no, it absolutely is not mandatory.

They just gave us said agency. A lot of it even. You get to pick a guaranteed T7 slam on all your LP1 items - that in itself is incredibly powerful. Don’t get greedy.

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Then I’ll say the absolute same thing I say about GGG’s nonsensical implementations of Uber Maven:

If you provide a core gameplay loop then the perception of success and ‘finishing’ the game is based upon the last distinctly positioned point in that loop.

For PoE 1 it’s Uber-Maven, because from Campaign → Maps → Maven → Uber-Maven is how the game actively leads you into it, they are all the ‘core questline’ so to speak.

In LE the exact same thing happens. Camapign → Monolith → Empowered Monolith → Aberroth → Uber-Aberroth.

If (which it isn’t) Uber-Aberroth would be positioned in a way it’s not directly intertwined with the core progression system of Monoliths and also not a natural step-up from Aberroth simply then this perception wouldn’t be the case. Like… having a separate side-mechanic opening up after Aberroth which is distinctly separate from the core loop and positioning that boss in there, as well as other Uber-variants for the future.
It’s then perceived as ‘bonus’.

For as long as he’s in the core gameplay loop I’ll also treat him accordingly to be a goal which has to be reachable by the playerbase. It’s not the business of the players to deal with badly positioned mechanics… that’s the job of the devs to avoid those things.

And I’m saying that’s the wrong way to go at it and it’s a detrimental change from EHG. Re-read my posts and you can see this specifically stated.

The guaranteed 1 LP craft removes progress time overall, it’s simply a shortcut. It does nothing for the still existing RNG beyond.

With the implementation EHG has acknowledged ‘yes, the system has a problem’… as otherwise nothing would’ve needed to be done, right? But it was done. So… has it solved the problem?
No?
Guess it’s not the right solution then!

What’s the solution hence?
Any system which takes care of the option that you can create a worse item the higher up you go, instead as mentioned… pity-system, accumulation of resources with more needed for higher crafts but guaranteed outcomes… or the gradual empowerement from repeated tries as I suggested.

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Luxury or not, thats Not the point. U people that say stuff like this need to stop. Ur doing nothing but hand waving away the issue or feedback on this issue. Theres a reason these frustration post about slamming keep being posted.

Ur nit even making an argument against it. Ur hand waving it away without any understanding as to why people are making these post. And keep doing so here and on reddit hell even on discord. Theres a reason why.

Im nit agreeing or disagreeing with OP. I do however think the system in some way need to change so its not a constant fail after fail after fail. Saying stuff like this just hand waves away the issue

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A LP2 WS isn’t “crucial” for you to beat the boss. It’s a luxury - a LP1 gets the job done 100%.

That’s not the point of my post at all. What I believe I personally need to clear uber aberroth is between me, Abby, and his flat-faced steed.

The point is that I’ve failed eight LP2 WS slams. Eight. That feels awful. Maybe you think that’s the system working as intended, and you’re certainly entitled to your opinion. If that is the case, I appreciate your input, but I do not agree with you. I do not find a system like that appealing or enjoyable.

I am certainly of the opinion that some abrasiveness in a game is good and healthy, which is why I proposed a forgiveness counter that says you’re either lucky out the gate, or guaranteed after like 4-5 attempts. It’s still a system that forces you to go out of your way to farm both the LP2+ item and the corresponding exalted, neither of which are easy. It still demands many, many hours of farming without making it too easy. If you think that a system like that is still too forgiving, once again I appreciate your opinion but I disagree that what currently exists is sufficient.

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Exactly, well said.

And now think about this situation… and imagine it happening each Cycle again… and again… and again.

Abrasiveness is fine, but if it’s at the cost of burning a player out long-term in a live-service game then it’s purely detrimental.
Alternative systems exist as you’ve also mentioned with the pity system of 4-5 tries… so those have to be taken instead. Which is up to EHG. That one has to be taken is not even up for discussion plainly spoken, not with the manifold examples in the gaming world over the last 2 decades.

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