My issue with modifiers in the Monolith of Fate

My problem with how it currently works:

Right now, modifiers are what really dictates how difficult it will be for the player to progress through an echo. Even though corruption also directly increases the damage and health of mobs in the echoes most builds are not affected by it that much until you start to have a lot, so for most players it will only affect passively because it increases the number of harder modifiers in the web, and the modifiers themselves are what will directly make the content more difficult.

But modifiers can often feel bad and too much of a hassle to deal with, especially those who specifically changes what mobs can do like “chance to slow” or “chance to dodge”. And because they can extend to next echoes and can even stack, this bad feeling increases with each new echo you do after completing the first one.

The response we heard a couple of times from devs is that those modifiers are in place to make more challenging to get the best rewards in the monolith web. Even though i like the ideal behind it, i doesn’t feel that it is always applied and when it is, it can feel a bit unproportional to what you receive.

Sometimes “normal rewards” echoes, like gold or experience, are the ones who get the most difficult modifiers and even if they increase your rarity, it doesn’t feel enough. It’s not that hard for “rare rewards” that the player would be more interested to pick to also appear with modifiers that are easier to deal with. And because of the nature of randomness from the echo reward, you often will feel like it wasn’t worth it to have to deal with an annoying modifier after completing the echo and not getting what you want.

My ideas for improvement:

To explain what i want first i will separate the modifiers in too different categories, those who generically increase the strength of monsters like “increased health” and “increased damage” and those who add a more specific trait or buff to monsters like “chance to dodge” “critical avoidance” or “deadly”.

What I’m proposing is:

The first group with more generic modifiers would be the ones to stack and increase the difficulty and rarity of multiple echoes, being found commonly, especially in early monoliths where you don’t find many exalted/unique/set reward echoes.

The second group with more specific modifiers should not stack at all or apply only to the next echo at most, as they are the ones that will really add a new difficult layer to the echo or require that the player pays more attention and play differently. Those should be attached to echoes with rare rewards, special echo types or pathways to those rare echoes. And them you should get the feeling of balance between reward and difficulty.

With those changes i feel it would be less frustrating to go through echoes and get a “bad modifier” without notice, making it best overall for the new players who doesn’t know what those modifiers can really do to their build and for the player who already has thousands of hours in the game and just end up not looking at every modifier they take. It would also introduce a sense of more linear progression when you start stacking the first type of modifiers, in opose to the sudden peak in difficulty when you pick the second type.

Another idea would be to add a new type of echo that gave you modifiers of the first type for the entire echo web or add an option to choose to add/delete a modifier instead of increasing corruption for the fight against the shade of orobyss.

Its of course a suggestion:

Of course, i also know that i’m just another player and definitely dont know more about the game then the devs that have been working on it for so long. But having more opinions is good and i like to share my opinions. And fortunally EHG often hear what the community has to say.

Thanks for the great game and keep the good work!

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Yeah, this is something fairly regularly discussed (almost as much as Corruption scaling) and while I dont know what the devs are thinking, I would bet that they know they need to consider some adjustments to how Monoliths mechanisms work. Their recent addition of the echo for clearing of corruption is evidence - to me at least - that they are considering changes. How far they go remains to be seen.

Specifcially to modifiers, I am sort of on the fence about them.

  • I like that they exist and currently have a big impact on the difficulty of echos and that they are sometimes frustrating (like a 3x dodge to get to an Orobyss echo or Unique reward). Without this, Monos would be seriously dull.

  • I would like it if there were more random paths between echos that allow for more planning of modifiers and choice.

  • I would like that there are MORE modifiers - like WAY more of all possibilities. And I would also like it if there were Positive modifiers - .e.g. something you save to boost your next echo or the Monolith timeline boss fight. This all would add more to the entire monolith puzzle. There could even be positive modifiers with things like 3x rewards or hybrid ones with sacrificing movement speed to get more exalt drops or anything.

  • As with corruption scaling, I dont feel that modifiers have any impact on the results of an echo run. I have never bothered to “test” the theory properly so this is all opinion but honestly after thousands of hours of play - mostly in monoliths - I dont generally get the impression that you get better rewards - even though the modifiers do increase the modifier metrics and should “in theory” benefit you.

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I agree with a lot of the thigns you said here Senoca.
Some of the ideas and suggestions you gave are something that I have not heard before like that and its definitely interesting.

I do fully agree that enemy modifiers feel like they sometimes increase the risk without appropriately increasing the reward.
I am a bit torn on this, because I do like that enemy modifiers do dicate the difficulty a lot.
Because you can stratgize around them and going certain paths, letting them run out before doing desired echo rewards, to prevent dying from too high diffculty etc.

But in practice its really bad because corruption scaling vs. enemy modifers scaling is so far off and there is another thing that I truely dislike which plays together with this.

Once you uncovered a big portion of th echo web, the echo web creation becomes very linear and thus removing the whole “strategy” component and planing different routes etc.

I made a seperate thread about this a while ago:

I thin the Monolith of Fate System is a very robust and solid system with A LOT of potential for the future. It is very modular and the possibilities are endless with what the devs can add.

But I think its really important to get the baseline scaling and risk vs. rewards down first, before they add more stuff.

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I asked Mike about monoliths a couple of times at this point, his response and it seems to be the overall agreement in the studio, is that those modifiers should be there to make getting the best rewards more challenging. And again, although i agree with this, i think that at least how often they apear and how much they opose as a “nuisance” to the player should be tone down a little. They could even make the numbers themselves go higher, but make it not last for so long. For me a challenge is exciting when it happens once in a while and you can prepare yourself to it, but when it lingers for so long it starts just beeing a nuisance.

I also want a lot more modifiers if possible, with more different effects. Right now they are quite boring to be honest.

About the modifiers scalling rewards, its not necesserly the only thing that scales it. Corruption scales how many exalted/unique/set rewards echoes will appear in your web, Rarity increases the chance of rarer items to appear more often (i think tunklab has a tool to kinda simulate the drop numbers) and of course we have the player’s luck, so because we have so many factors is hard to see how much one affects the overall drop you’ll get. But i can assure rarity is definetly something you want to scale, and rarity is scaled the most by stacking modifiers (even though its also scaled by corruption).

Modifiers lasting shorter “rounds” but being impactful, sure, I can get on board for this.

More modifiers - definitely in agreement.

I understand the scaling mechanics as they are currently in place, I just dont find them as rewarding as I would have wanted or enough to motivate me to take advantage of the mechanic to improve drops.

As I said, stacking lots of modifiers does increase the metrics for rarity but I honestly dont see that in practise. Yes, I understand RNGods etc, but I would prefer that if you stacked multiple stacks of modifiers with 6 rounds each (something that is easily possible when you explore monolith timelines as far from the centre as possible) that you perceive a noticeable improvement in the quality of drops over time. Right now, anecdotally, I dont see this - either because I have generally mediocre RNGod rolls or the improved rarity of items through modifiers just isnt enough to be obvious over and above just doing echos with less modifiers.

Combine this with the issue that Corruption scaling has a similar problem beyond a certain point - i.e. logically imho, if you are pusing 500 corruption you should very obviously notice better rewards than running 100 but its not. There are some that have pushed to 1000 plus (not me) that find very little point in doing so from a reward perspective - they just do it for difficulty alone.

So, yeah, I like monoliths and have done so many I probably have a problem my shrink needs to address, but the scaling of rewards vs difficulty via the various mechanics just doesnt, imho, work very well right now.

Yes, I agree that the monos need a lot of work and these are two really good examples. If I’m doing monos for a really long time and increasing the corruption the rewards should be better and theoretically they are, but it needs to be to an extent that the player sees the difference.

I understand that there has to be a gradient that prevents a “sure thing” but it still needs to be noticeably better.

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Well consider how we generally farm for items.

lets say you want a unique ring, do you get your ring blessing, then unique blessing, then grind every single monster in an instance?

Rarity only effects the drops of monsters, if you are farming how most people farm, which is chasing unique reward echos, then you are killing less monsters therefor using that rarity less.

The modifiers dont make any sense because currently if you have no interest in fighting the boss of a monolith, then killing extra monsters rewards nothing other then some very minor chances at the slots. this is what the rarity is increasing.

They would need to bump up the baseline drop rate of monsters and remove special echos to make rarity make sense as a farming stat.

Even if you kill every monster you come across on the way to an objective, you are missing so many monsters that could be using those modifiers.

I think its a combination of the modifiers not giving enough rarity AND how we engage with monsters as reward vectors.

The echo reward stuff is a good concept, but It really does remove any reason to kill monsters if your goal is strictly to farm a specific item.

Buff item drop blessings, buff monster drops, and buff the effect of modifiers.

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I, unlike most people, normally (not always) try to maximize my stability because of this very reason. I feel the more mobs I kill, each one gives me a chance, but I am selective on the echoes I choose based on the reward and modifier. I still see no noticeable difference, although I always have had the worst luck ever. LOL

Well monsters seem to have really weird drop rates in general I feel like.

They recently made exalted more common, I see dozens upon dozens of exalted dropping in my echos, but even with like 400%+ rarity which is baby numbers I see maybe a unique every 5 echos? I used to get way more. Hell I get lots of uniques in the campaign even.

it feels like I run a character up to level 45 getting all idols/passives and get 4-5 uniques, which takes me maybe 3 hours 4 on a slow day. Then I do 2 hours of unempowered mono grinding and get 1. its kinda crazy.

They really just perhaps need to buff the default drop rate of monsters in general while keeping the number of exalted the same.

Cause making more exalted drop might be a bit too insane lol

Having played for so long I have done all kinds - farming for drops within echos (esp. random exalts) and target farming items through aiming for the special echo nodes (uniques/exalts/idols etc) and obviously boss farming (in monos especially).

So, yeah, I have gone and used every optimising trick in the game to chase the best possible rewards and I definitely feel that there are very obvious times where the effort isnt worth the rewards.

What concerns me about LE is the entire RNG x RNG x RNG thing the devs have going and how things are layered wrt to the item chase (including crafting). Different things influencing different components of the same RNG based item farming and how everything is working on top of the normal RNG is RNG concept.

I have experienced some particularly bizzare situations in playing LE - Farming 200+ Orobyss at 300c to find a single Maw with more than 1LP, then getting a Ravenous void after killing Gaspar just once. Finding Bastions once a day over 3 game sessions looking for other things in other timelines after farming Black sun shield echos for weeks and getting nothing. Then getting almost a dozen uniques in a single Echo when it seemed Rare mobs were just treasure goblins. and going from that to not finding any exalted items in half dozen 200c+ echos.

Yes, I understand RNG and all of this is possible statistically, but either the RNGods are having a laugh or something odd is going on.

It really seems sometimes that there is no point in doing anything other than just embracing RNG and killing as much of everything as fast as you can cause the other things you could do to improve your odds dont make that much difference at the end of the day.

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This right here. At this point doing echoes just trying to get items is feeling like a massive chore, having the rarity and stuff bump up what you get from the echo rewards would be nice. Running the reward echo for a specific unique should not take 600+ runs of the “Unique or Set item reward.” It ends up making people want to quit knowing they cant get the item they want

I’ve suggested this before, but imo by far the best outcome for monolith would be to simply remove the whole concept of stacking modifiers. Each echo could just have 2-5 modifiers innately with more on special echo types. (quests would need some new mechanic for their mods. It could be as simple as they use the mod from your previous nonquest echo.)

Imo so long as the stacking concept remains, it will be really difficulty to get away from the feeling of it being a hassle to be managed. Fixed modifiers per echo with some echoes being intrinsically easier or harder will make choosing your next echo a decisive choice about what you want to experience in the immediate term instead of an awkward thing where you have to worry about the mods you already accumulated and whether you’re setting up a problem for yourself an echo or two in the future. And it would also make the monolith overall a bit more interesting to explore as echoes with several mods would be a distinct feature adding variety to the web.

Making mods stronger and shorter duration is a middle ground. I’m in favour of going all the way but something is better than nothing.

The opposite direction would be to make the mods so interesting that putting in effort to plan an optimised path is exciting rather than tedious. This would require a pretty radical step up from the current standard though. That said, more interesting mods could definitely improve mono a lot with or without any other changes.

this sums perfectly what might be my feeling. If you want be happy embrace the RNG side of the game and does not play expecting the desired item to drop. Does not chase it (exception is itens dropped from boss , the only ones that are reliable to chase) because you might be extremely frustrated. You will eventually get extremelly powerfull itens, but mostly all randomly, and you better play around the itens you get, and not the other way around, trying to play around itens you want to chase.

This is pretty much how I play right now. But its taken a 500 hours to get to this point though, the previous 1500 I tried to farm for things.

Other than the boss farming for a high chance of a specific boss only unique, I no longer target farm anything else really.

I play multiple chars, and if something drops I adjust my build to the item or I change to another char who can use the item better. I no longer bother to look for uniques or anything else for a build - if I find an item that enables a build, then I consider the build, not the other way around.

It does make the game far less frustrating to take this approach but it can get boring without something to chase for.

“chance to dodge” is an especially criminal mod

it just feels bad when your long cooldown move that is meant to wipe the screen has a whole bunch of enemies randomly avoid it

Honestly, “Enemies Have A Chance To Dodge” needs to be renamed “Player Has A Small Chance To Hit.”

Depending on my character id rather “chance to dodge” vs focuses player… completely screws over minion builds especially melee minions

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