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Multiplayer Content and Balancing Discussion

Yeah I said that in my reply. I’m not into “raid” bosses. All content should be able to be soloed imo. My issue is if they don’t balance it at all or try to make it an added flavor, then why include it all?
Edit: I think what I’m trying to say is that if they don’t put any focus on making multiplayer a good (and unique) experience instead of just solo play+1, then as the consumer, why should I play this game over the large swath of arpgs that do integrate MP synergies, builds, and balancing. Protecting the solo experience in a game that has always (to my knowledge) projected the MP feature sounds like a missed opp.

If the OP builds could be brought into line without breaking non-abusive configurations I’d imagine Eleventh Hour would have done so already, regardless of multiplayer or not.

I am very curious to know what arpg are those? because “large swath”? woah
Are you talking abt 4 chars zooming the whole map kind of synergis? Or 4 zdps synergies? Or can you be more concrete what deep smart synergies other arpg has? Really curious

Unfortunately those players who suffers from hopeless mmorpg PTSD cant differentiate the genre they are playing.

Well, I assume that enemies will scale depending on the number of players. That’s how it works with D3 at least.

Also, there will be matchmaking.

Personally, I don’t think that this forum is the proper place to be discussing LE competitors, but with a little help from your preferred search engine - you could definitely find many ARPGs that don’t just support MP; rather they integrate it with its own flavors, builds, built-in systems, and even content that flows better with more players. Either way, the question kinda takes us off track as it misses the forest for the trees. Simply saying you don’t believe there are good integrations of MP elsewhere doesn’t mean that we can’t consider good integrations of MP here.
Edit: I’d like to add that the OP @rittchard was trying to spark considerations for things that they’d like, and I gave some examples above of things that I would like as well.

There’s a FAQ regarding Multiplayer.

I quoted just the part the last posts revolve around, but theres much more info in it.

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Only Diablo 2-3 has done it well in the aRPG scene, D3 was exceptional and the best aRPG to play with randoms

MP is either highly co-ordinated affair with guilds/raids/people getting angry or its a 2bit non caring affair where you can jump in mindlessly and play with others and can still make progress and only D3 has done the latter

And then u quote “large swath of other arpg”

Interesting

Oh no worries, you can just share some build synergies?no need to mention competitors name.

4 dps? 4 zoomer? What is it?

It will definitely help development so we can make LE have wonderful and amazing arpg build synergies too.

Please remember that co-op ARPG is a really old genre with the oldest game I can recall being Arcus Odyssey (1991). I’m also not to shy to ignore such related genres as action shooters like Metal Slug 3 (2000) with the original metal slug being the game that made me fall in love with co-op games in the first place. D2-3 is just the current flavor circa 2012, but it doesn’t mean all other games don’t have something worthwhile to contribute. BTW I purposefully chose out of date games in hopes this would help redirect focus back onto LE and not other games.

Looking at the response to a response isn’t usually helpful. I already contributed my ideas for build content that could liven MP in my opinion in my original response to the OP.

Oops its ok if you cant quote those wonderful build synergise.

Its pretty easy to “misunderstand” when you say a large swath of other arpg has all those successful stuff in their mp and you hope LE can have that too.

Seems like comparing but since you said not

Anyways glad clear that up

Why wouldn’t you mention the names of other games that do things well (or not)? If not it’s just opening the discussion up to confusion. The LE forum is exactly the place to discuss what things other games do well (or not) that you would/wouldn’t like to see in LE.

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Don’t worry about it @babylordx. You misunderstood the post you were responding to in the first place and mistook

they don’t put any focus on making multiplayer a good (and unique) experience instead of just solo play+1, then as the consumer, why should I play this game over the large swath of arpgs that do integrate MP synergies, builds, and balancing.

and saw it as:

LE needs to copy and paste concepts from their competitors.

Personally, I like the creativity of the LE team, and I only want to provide a nudge in a direction I like – not a selection of current systems I’d like them to emulate. That doesn’t produce innovation.

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Because it’s a rehashed concept, and totally off the point of the original OP and my original post. Everything since has been affirmation of Godwin’s law.

Thanks for reminding on the FAQ.

I took a look and noticed they say they intend to include player housing. I don’t recall seeing this before and it feel contradictory to the devs responses on this qn early on.

EDIT: I went to review some of the discord comments that were shared on player housing. I recall now Mike agree they dont want to allow player housing to become a barrier to players socialising. But thought that housing can still be a cool idea to show off personal custom space to others. I suppose I will reserve comments on this until we see a more concrete concept for how EHG intends to implement housing.

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In my opinion, scaling monsters attributes per player on party is a pretty good shot. This allows you to share a good multiplayer experience with your friends and doesn’t break the game. I don’t think they need to worry about balacing multiplayer, unless we find a broken interaction.

My concerns is about game optimizations. The game isn’t light to play (constantly above 60fps) and we can’t tweak things like game physics, monsters disappearing after death to clean the environment, disable shadows and if I turn off antialiasing the game shows a lot of particles.

This is a really interesting discussion, thanks everyone!

So presuming there is no additional “MP only” or MP-focused content, I suppose the question is more about the philosophical design of balancing (or not) for group play. While I’m definitely a group-oriented player in general (I almost always play a support class in an MMORPG), I also really enjoy playing a crazy solo build in an ARPG. Balancing (or nerfing) specific skills to limit “OP” solo builds seems like a pretty controversial solution and seems like it would ruin a lot of fun for primarily solo players. I guess I’m just wondering if a “/players X” kind of solution (where you just boost the HP and damage of mobs X-fold or more) would work well for this game.

In an ideal situation, I’d love to see single player be more or less unchanged, but somehow when you had a group the content was tough enough that having players work together everyone could feel the benefits. And not just for boss fighting, but also for regular play.

Kind of a side note, but one thing I wonder is how many of the top builds (that might be considered “OP”) rely on Autocast. The Autobomber I believe wouldn’t work well without it. I wonder if removing Autocast capability would help the balancing in a way that would make MP more playable. And if that was the case, would players be OK with that?

There was a thread a while back on “Ideal Group Composition” or something to that effect. When I think about it, there really isn’t one. For a few reasons.

  1. If you need a healer, you’re going to die before the healer can react.
  2. Unlike MMORPG “raids”, you’ll need everyone to really contribute to DPS or Monos will go slow (and perhaps Dungeons when they become more of a “thing.”)

So, those two things sort of remove the MMORPG role concepts of healer, tank, dps.

Once you eliminate roles, you’re just left with 4 solo characters teaming up. And at that point, to be honest, ramping up the monsters and bosses sort of becomes just an exercise in math.

I feel that EHG’s goal for MultiPlayer isn’t to provide interesting reasons to group. I think its more to simply allow it (maybe the word “tolerate” is a bit harsh).

For me (and likely others like me), I will never group in Last Epoch. Unless… my real-life friends buy the game (I’m trying to get them to) and we have like a “game night” (say, Tuesdays at 9pm) where we all log on and play together (and chat in Discord) with certain characters we make just for group play (so they all stay the same level as each other). And the rest of the time, I’d be playing solo.

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On the most recent dev stream this was discussed in more general/high level concepts in that the intention is not to have a party have a strict hierarchy/role gameplay aspect it like you would encounter more traditional MMOs. It seems more along the lines of, if you do decide to play a build that focuses on say, buffing a teammate’s build so that their aspect is stronger, then those choices you make contribute to the success of the group as well instead of everybody focusing solely on DPS.

Largely, it seems like overall they do not want a traditional “healer, tank, and dps” party dynamic and in lieu of more of a choice of contributing to the teams success in ways outside of straight damage. Whether that be in buffing/debuffing/healing/taunts, it’s up to you. But I do not think there will be a large content design emphasis around such roles as in MMOs, just other different ways to play the game and play it well.

For instance, in those genres, I love to tank and heal, so do I have a couple of builds theorycrafted around those concepts where I sacrifice (some) personal DPS to achieve that? Absolutely.

I’m more interested in how the team will approach those builds that Llama pointed out, such as running max party flurry BD that are very much in the upper tier of damage, and one member can even sacrifice say smokescreen for decoy and still be very effective.

Yep, there is still lots of interesting ways you can build parties. For example summon spriggan is really valuable on druid right now, imagine if it eased the gearing of everyone in the party.

For example necro offers interesting potential buffs to a squirrel beast master scaling aspect of the viper effect by offering a poison specialized dreadshade, and running say serpents milk to have their mages poison like crazy to shred.

Or even if we consider less obvious poison combos, we have summon spriggan + howl wolves Beastmaster in a party with other minion builds to spread around buffs that normally are not so impactful when you just have 2-3 minions but being able to buff up 15 necromancer minions make a world of difference.

As a minion player I see tons of combos already that I am really excited to try in multiplayer