Because you’re only looking at it from one way. What if, instead of going CoF and then switching to MG, you simply start with MG, buy most of your endgame gear and then switch to CoF with a farmer build that took literally just hours to make and that now has loot explosions faster than those going just CoF?
No picking factions isnt the same thing as character selection.
Factions are about how u want to get ur loot. Do u want to trade or not. Thats the whole point of them.
Factions are designed the way they are to give trade players what they want and give non trade players away to get loot and progress with out being gimpped or forced to trade like in poe to even have a chance at high tier end game content. This was the intire point of them.
Factions are not a class choice. Saying they are clearly shows u dont see why switching currently is extremely bad imo
CoF does exactly that. It doesn’t give you BiS gear, unless you’re lucky. It just makes it much easier to get high tier gear. It was never meant to be equivalent to MG and I honestly don’t know why some people perceive that they should be equal when clearly they can never be.
You can freely switch between COF and MG at any time, on any character, and your progress is saved for both… So I don’t see why you have any issue, just switch factions whenever you feel like it…
I never said they should be equally. They never will be we both know that.
Do u honestly not see how being told ur gear u spent days and 100s of hrs farming and crafting is now locked to the said faction. Is extremely bad.
Iv suggested ways to help improve the system of switching. There is no good agreement that can be made to say this is a good design.
What diablo like game forces u to regrind all ur gear u spent hrs getting and craft.
Is that not what cycles leagus and ladder plag are for restarting the grind.
U missed the point me and Kulze have pointed out about switching.
Yes u can switch at the cost of loosing gear u have equipped and spent days and hrs fsrming and crafting up. Only to be told u gotta grind all that out again. Thats whag cycles are for starting the grind again.
Iv also made suggestions in this thread to improve this. That wouldnt allow for switching on the fly. Which i dont think should be able to be done.
I did not miss that point… OP was complaining about gold differences between the factions, but you can just switch to MG if you want gold that bad.
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When speaking of gold. I agree
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Yes, but Kulze was saying that they are equivalent. That’s the only thing I really disagree.
The point of the restrictions in gear, I feel, aren’t for CoF → MG, but rather because of MG → CoF. If you weren’t restricted, you’d simply start MG, grind rank 3, buy pretty much great gear for your build and then switch to CoF for the lootsplosions. You’d be all decked out in great gear, even if you had no exalteds and still benefit from CoF bonuses. And that doesn’t seem neither balanced nor fair.
Great. I understand the drawback of losing access to faction-gear… But MOST gear is not faction-gear in my experience… I have many MG characters, but only one COF.
My COF character has belonged to the faction since level 40. I am 81 now and have used prophecies consistently. I have very good gear for my level, but only 2/11 pieces of my gear are labeled as COF… So in my case, I would only have to replace 2 items if I switched factions.
Just one example… But not a big drawback for me personally
So… let me get this straight.
You start with the trading faction to buy your BiS gear, so… you already have it, right?
Then you switch over to an unranked CoF to continue?
And that’s supposed to be a problem?
Please go into detail how that is the case.
First of all: You already have your progression done, the sole difference would be that you farm up gear for secondary characters.
Secondly: Even if you do, you can do the same with MG and it would actually be faster and more deterministic with rank-leveled MG
Third: Those ‘loot explosions’ as you say are fully RNG-based still. So the chance to get any item in the same power level as MG is nigh impossible.
So personally said… I see absolutely no issue for that, quite the contrary… if you want to go from a ‘gone and done’ situation to one pushing you permanently back to restart before even remotely being able to get similar amounts of equipment of the same level… you do you!
I could miss something there, but you’ll have to go into that in more detail to give me some more specific situations where it might apply.
It does not, it fails at that.
To give you a way for roughly similar loot progression we would need some form of vastly more deterministic loot choice in CoF, we don’t have that, hence it’s just a ‘loot multiplier’ and that’s it.
So it fails in providing people the option to not interact with trade since they can reliably progress like this with trade can.
We don’t need to have a 100% equivalent system, you’re right, but to even begin thinking about it ‘taking over that job’ we need to remove any disparity which is beyond 1000% in time investment.
There it fails.
I can’t though?
My favor is not saved.
My gear can’t be used anymore by my character.
So your premise is wrong. Re-read the issues and provide a basis on that premise, not a generalization which doesn’t address the mentioned points of friction.
In terms of UI positioning and in terms of representation towards the player.
Obviously they’re not in what they provide beyond.
Which is the whole point I’m making the whole time that they shouldn’t be presented that way and actually the whole premise around them needs another design-check.
Which is a problem with item acquisition in MG.
You should never be able to buy rare uniques during Rank 3.
Also something I’ve repeatedly mentioned that it needs to be fixed.
Also something I mentioned before ‘You can’t make a point about a system if it’s inherently broken while basing your reasoning on those broken aspects.’
Rank 3 = utterly and atrociously unbalanced. Hence don’t make a point derived from it since it needs to be fixed in accordance anyway.
Remove Rank 3 and then make that argument again and suddenly it has not a single steady premise to even be made.
Which is the problem on the other side then MG, CoF doesn’t properly tag all items affected by the system. It only does so for the freshly created ones rather then upgraded ones.
That’s a major problem for CoF and needs to be changed. All items in any way influenced by CoF needs to be faction-tagged.
I’m sorry, don’t mean to insult you, but this is dumb. What do you expect them to do, place MG on lower left and CoF in upper right? Besides, if anything, the UI ends up presenting them as opposites.
I can understand that we’re 2 different types of players:
To you, the whole point of the game is to get the gear. Once you have the gear, the character is done and you don’t play it anymore.
To me, it’s to have fun with the build, even if I already have all the gear or if I have none of it. I could have perfect BiS gear and I would still play the build and keep pushing corruption.
Because with an infinite progression system, you’re never finished.
Actually, if you remove the rank 3 (and rank 4) from it, it makes it even more meta: go MG, buy all 4xT5 yellows, then use CoF for unique/idol drops.
Not wanting to have restrictions between them in terms of gear, etc, just leads to meta gearing. It’s having your cake and eating it too. You get deterministic trade and lootsplosions without any downside.
Which:
A.) infers similar standing
B.) shouldn’t be done in the first place since they’re not
C.) you missed the ‘representation’ part. Which I’m talking about the whole time. Making them mututally exclusive to such lengths is senseless.
Nobody cares about that.
The topic was that switching over from MG to CoF would provide an upside with the removal of the Rank 3 perk.
What you’re talking about… not what I talked about.
4 T5 items are very costly actually if you’ve looked them up.
You won’t be able to afford them.
Which is meant to be the main progression hampering method of MG. So no… you can’t just do that, it’s a false premise.
Not to speak that rare gear also needs a ramp-up time if they wanna go with such a ranking system.
As mentioned, the whole ranking system for MG is absolutely and utterly fucked in many many ways and actually redundant to the existing time-sink of favor. Which means MG is supposed to solely run on favor. You don’t double-dip into limitations for a reason.
You’re ignoring repeatedly what I’ve said.
It still baffles me how you lack the understanding that a fully and 100% functioning restriction between them would still be there though.
You can’t get the needed gold or favor to buy from MG in a properly set up system if you go with CoF first.
CoF drops won’t make up for the availability of gear on MG in the first place, so switching from MG to CoF is by design a inferior choice.
Conclusion:
There is no need for any gear-usage limitation between them.
Issue:
EHG fucked up setting them up properly.
Problems arising from that:
Party-play gets messed up between people in different factions.
Progression loss when switching between factions.
Account-wide punishment for singular character choices.
So can we please finally have it that you can rise your cozy rear from the position you’re having and actually answering with the provided solution ideas presented rather then defaulting back to the currently existing situation (which we know… is fucked) to allow for an argument?
After I don’t know how many posts back and forth you’re always snapping back to the beginning while ignoring everything being said. It’s like a damn broken record by now and while I’m darn patient it starts to grate on that clearly.
Yes obviously if we take the current setup in mind you can’t do shit. Why? Because it’s shit. So step away from that and think a step beyond rather then returning over and over to ‘but now it’s…’ yeah… nobody cares or should care, that’s what suggestions are for, to move away from the status quo presented to create something better.
Yes, we need to cut short on our conversations 
I think the issue is that I’m not getting my point across properly, nor am I understanding yours properly either. Maybe it’s because we start from different points or because we’re different types of players/person.
In short, I have no isses with the systems as they are. They do need balancing, both of them, but I feel like they should be exclusive and restrictive. And they shouldn’t be equivalent either, because they can’t be. And I say this as an MG player that has, so far, only bothered buying a couple of items and they weren’t even good items, just items to facilitate a build switch. So it’s not like I have any interest behind this.
I don’t really mind if they change it either. In fact, I don’t even mind if they decide this was a failure and scrape both factions and go back to 0.9.2 status. I treat trade simply like a shop where I sometimes pick up some stuff that I might really need, but otherwise I just play the game. I was fine with the way things were before factions, after all.
If it weren’t for the prophecies, which is a mechanic I hate, I would have probably gone CoF from the start.
So, to summarize: I see no issues with the factions as they are, other than balancing needed and I like that they are exclusive. You obviously dislike that they are exclusive. So no real middle ground can be found there. After all this time we can’t get our point across and that might just be because we are seeing the same thing from fundamentally different points of view.
Which is fine, but I do agree with you that our back and forths have been unfruitful, to say the least 
So let’s just agree to disagree and see what EHG does to address this issue.
Yeah, they at least ‘function’, can’t deny that. And since they’re an add-on on top it’s no major issue for anyone which has been here before 1.0. I can agree with that.
I agree with you there too, just not to the extent they currently do, which is overly punishing and hindering long-term health of the game since it struggles in quite a few situations.
MG is definitely here to stay, taking away trade from people would cause the game to fail the second they do.
Hence removal isn’t an option. Adjustments are, and they need a lot to be in a functional place.
The base idea is and will always be amazing for both factions, just the execution is… not well thought out from a design-perspective.
They should be exclusive. You never got my point there.
If you use one you’re locked out of the functions of the other. That’s esxclusivity.
Anything beyond that is punishment for usage though.
Limit usage, not the outcome that has already happened because of said usage.
I’m definitely curious. A lot hinges on that.
LE gained traction because they went along and made a grand announcement of implementing trade in a never before seen state as well as allowing solo-players to stand on roughly even ground then traders.
The game is amazing but those implied promises don’t uphold as well as one would like them to do.
They can, they should, loads of work simply needed to get there.
Everybody can freely switch between COF and MG. Even you.
Yes you lose favor, but guess what? You can get 10k favor in a very short play session… Do several empowered echoes and boom.
Also, MOST gear is not labeled COF in my experience, so having to replace 1 or 2 items when switching to MG is trivial…
MG and COF are NOT meant to be equal, they are different playstyles. People need to stop comparing them with balance in mind. MG and COF are not supposed to be equally beneficial… One is for people who want to trade, one is for people who don’t want to trade.
The next one.
So, can I still use my gear afterwards?
What if I want to do it after reaching Rank 10? Will the chances of my gear being CoF then be lower or higher given you get most uniques from prophecies?
Will my gear from MG be a large amount of MG bought ones, or at least the most powerful pieces?
No?
Well, I guess you’re not using the factions properly then.
Yes?
Oops, no switching possible.
There’s no rocket science needed, it’s a simple thought experiment anyone should be able to do!
Put yourself into the shoes of someone trying to do it, think what issues arise, realize that it’s not optimally implemented as other variants exist to alleviate or even outright remove those restrictions.
Thanks for clearing that up!
I agree!
Wasn’t what I talked about.
They do because that’s how they*re presented to us. If that wouldn’t be the case then that whole discussion wouldn’t be here in the first place.
Context matters.
Yes, and CoF was implemented with the clear intend that those not using trade don’t feel like they’re completely disadvantaged compared to those doing it.
Hence the whole premise leans by design on a equivalence basis.
And to repeat it again:
It doesn’t mean ‘perfectly equivalent’ but simply ‘not multitudes worse’.
Alternatively acquisition being made in such a way that they’re too different to even compare, but that’s also not the case.
Hence here we are.
When and where did EHG say: “with the clear intend that those not using trade don’t feel like they’re completely disadvantaged” ??
When and where did EHG present COF and MG as “balanced” per your reply?
Oh, not word for word, but let’s deconstruct what they actually said in some spots:
This one is the official reveal of the factions.
‘This system is the result of many years of debating what the ideal trade system should look like in a loot-based Action RPG’
This line is said while showcasing CoF.
Not only does it ignore the existence of CoF entirely it seems, but it also directly hints at CoF being a direct decision to be made for the reason of trading coming into existence.
Timestamp 0:36
‘We found through extensive polling that players of Action RPGs are split nearly down the middle when it comes to those who want their experience to heavily involve trade and an economy, and those who want to focus on finding items themselves. Or, with close friends’
This is why it was warranted to make CoF in the first place rather then only providing a marketplace.
We only had the ability to find items ourselves by now, right?
So there was no need for an extra system.
The only viable reason to implement one together with the trade mechanic is to provide those not wanting to engage in trade to have an alternative so they’re not ‘left out’, as around 50% of the community prefers to do it on their own rather through a community based economy.
Timestamp 0:49
‘We believe that through the item faction system we will deliver a tailored and exciting path to hunt for top-tier items for both camps of players.’
Which is the first comment putting it into a ‘equivalence’ situation directly.
Both sides should have the ability to acquire said items in a roughly similar manner, just different with their playstyle.
Which is the part which I have my gripes about since it hasn’t been realized, but that’s fine, the basic construct is there.
Timestamp 1:02
‘You may switch factions and earn and maintain reputation with them with no penalty (this will become important to my further argument, sorry for the interruption of the quote) to your earned reputation with the other.’
This statement tells you you’re able to switch to whichever faction aligns more with your more enjoyed playstyle at any given time.
The reality is that this is the basic hindrance to not ‘double dip’ into the mechanics profiting you as a player at the same time, otherwise not hindering you to engage the game in the way you want.
This is also the comment which best aligns with my gripe about the usage limitation of the gear you acquire as it’s not in line with allowing you freely to switch between the playstyles you prefer at any given time.
This is also the point which suffices to make it functional without further limitations applied (but which we have)
Timestamp 2:20
‘So, while you have the freedom to change your faction at any time, you will want to pick a faction and stick with it to reach the most powerful benefits that they have to offer.’
This directly implies that there’s already an inherent investment needed to rank a faction. This means you’re already putting effort into it and you’re free to leave that effort behind at your own volition. This is the downside which is a good one!
It means the invested time into a faction will stay for the account but won’t be lost in any way… yet.
But… for that to make sense we have to go back this time in terms of timestamps actuall.
Timestamp 2:34
There are currently 10 ranks to achieve in each faction. With the later ranks requiring quite a bit of commitment in order to obtain’
Here you have what you need to do. You need to invest time to get the rewards which is what any good system should have. Want a better reward? Spend more time.
Together with the statement above you’re Giving up the invested time if you choose the other faction.
In no way does it ever state Being punished beyond that though, which are the main issues currently.
You’re already penalized, all you did to achieve that rank can’t be used while in the other faction. This doesn’t relate to the outcomes each one can provide, just the system access.
Also this already puts them at an equivalence basis. Choose: Solo-Play or Economy. Meaning if you choose one the other is barred until you change your mind.
Now the points which are double-dipping into the mechanic are coming up.
Timestamp 2:27
‘It is important to note that you you can only be a member of one faction at any given time per character,’
So far so good. That’s perfect. Choose where your time is invested and you can even do 2 characters to switch your playstyle between them as you wish.
Hence we have our upside:
‘You get more loot through that mechanic’
And our downsides:
‘You can’t access the mechanic if you’re not aligned and hence profit from it’
Which is a finished solid system.
But then:
‘and items earned with the benefits from those factions will require that you’re aligned with them in order to use them’
And here it starts.
You have a upside.
You have the downsides.
The system is done.
Now it adds another layer of punishment for changing factions which is build-breaking hence invalidating the ability to ‘freely’ switch completely.
That’s bad design.
Also as is mentioned in the video: Benefits
That word there is very important. Both factions benefit equally. They both have 10 ranks, they both allow you to acquire more and stronger items quicker. No matter which you choose you profit inherently… as long as you actually pick one.
This mechanic though Takes away the rewards bereft from said benefits instead of simply handling access to those benefits.
Which is a bad design simply.
Timestamp 2:43
We’ve already established:
2 Factions.
Both are made to be for 50% of the players.
Both are a choice between them, so it’s either Economy or Loot enhancement.
Both can be chosen at the exact same time during the game progression.
They’re solely based to enhance your chosen style of gameplay.
CoF only exists because trading was implemented, as otherwise it didn’t warrant the existence in the first place.
WeÄve already heard that every individual character can be in a different faction.
So yes, by now they’re already equivalent, even if not said word by word… it’s how they’re designed, how they’re presented, how they’re set up in progress and how they function as a baseline.
So next up we even go further down the deep end:
‘Next, let’s talk about favor. Favor is the currency you’ll earn while slaying enemies or completing quests for each of the factions.’
Ah! So it’s not even free access but limited access while you’re aligned. That’s good! Inherently it means even with system access itself you’ll need further time investment beyond to allow to profit from said access.
That’s great!
This is the mechanic which avoids abuse between cross-usage of those systems with multiple characters.
Hence despite it being a potentially open point beforehand in the whole line of argumentation… now it’s not. It’s closed. We can’t abuse cross-usage anymore, hence the former limitation is already too much.
Timestamp 2:59
‘Favor is separate from reputation’
So, the need to even say that out loud has meaning. It’s important.
Reputation is what accesses the mechanic.
Favor is an extra to limit the usage of the mechanic in a time-based manner.
Which means both aspects are a necessity and a solution at the same time.
It means if you don’t actively play for the faction you can’t gain profits, hence outcome, from the benefits you get.
This separates Benefits and Rewards by design.
Reputation are the benefit
Favor handles the reward
Timestamp 3:07
‘Item gifting to party members has been in the game for a while now, and it isn’t going anywhere. However, it’s important to note that once you’ve joined a faction items will start being tagged with the faction you’re a part of when they dropped’
This is actually… wrong.
They don’t.
I have ‘Faction free items’ while playing with a faction, so it doesn’t even take it fully into consideration.
The whole ‘tagging system’ isn’t even fleshed out in their presentation and it shows right there at this point in time.
Since we already have the explicit up- and downsides presented the double-dipping into punishing us with usage limitations is hence not something which plays well with any other mechanic they provide.
Faction change becomes nigh impossible by design since your items are tagged.
Not all items dropped through the mechanical intervention in some way are even tagged in the first place (CoF upgrades for example)
Playing in a group enforces both people to run the same faction or be left with less loot to share then they ever would be otherwise.
So it already bleeds over into other pre-existing mechanics as well, and not in a good manner.
Timestamp 3:23
‘The last use case we wanted to solve for are friends who choose to play together and just want their own little trade group’
Now… that’s a problem now, isn’t it?
You can’t choose different factions from each other and hence abide by your own chosen playstyle without affecting that mechanic.
In the current iteration of the faction system at least.
Differing factions will be punished harshly, this causes friction in groups ‘Umh… are you actually MG… or CoF? If you’re the other it’ll not feel nice as I can’t trade the item and use it anyway’ when a drop happens during playtime together.
Every person in a group after all invests the same amount of time and hence interchanging the loot drops between them can be limited in amount, but never in result.
But that is the case currently.
As said, basic system: Great.
Execution: Not great.
Timestamp 3:54
‘We know a lot of times players will play with their friends and then later you’ll be soloing a piece of content and the perfect item drops for your buddy.’
Yeah, guess what in that case? ‘Fuck you buddy! Should’ve gone CoF instead of MG! Can’t use it!’
Greaaaaaat solution /s
It’s doing the exact opposite of what the intention of this mechanic is, presented together with the economy implementation since it’s all a part of it solving different downsides in not engaging with it for the other use cases.
But it doesn’t, it hinders at the wrong places which shouldn’t be hindered.
And just to drive it home:
‘Well, thanks to the resonance system you’ll be able to give them the perfect item the next time you see them.’
Big big ‘Ooooofff’ there.
‘Here ya go, look at it all you want! Could’ve used it… such a shaaaaaame you’re in the other faction, I dropped it juuuust for you though, isn’t that great?’
Must feel utterly amazing to have that happen.
Plainly spoken… if that happens during group-play to me and my friends I’ll stop playing that instant. Alas LE is my solo-game, but I can’t fault any single person to just stop right then and there.
It’s not thought out, those issues needed to be addressed beforehand. They’re not small either.
Timestamp 4:16
Summary:
We have 2 factions.
Without economy we wouldn’t have a single one of those as no need exists outside of baseline drops.
Since we have trade we got CoF to please the other 50% of players.
This directly entails that those are equivalently as important and hence needs to be on roughly the same level.
We have inherently in-built limiters to avoid cross-usage abuse.
EHG added another layer of limitations which have no upside and only downsides to the usage of those factions.
Group players are driven away from their personally liked playstyle and instead forced to align with their groupmates to not be heavily punished.
So yes, equivalent. Yes, not well done. Yes, base system good.
The devil’s in the details, always was, is and always will be.
Did I miss where we didn’t get a choice in joining factions?
Did it not have a prompt that asked if we were sure?
Did we not get an option to change factions?
Yes, the factions are two very different ways of going about gearing one’s character and account. Both are good.
One you buy, sell, trade for gear.
One you FIND gear.
They are supposed to be very different for a reason. Choice.