MG's Bazaar actually needs a separate currency

[JekeTeMata]

@Kulze

Which in itself is not a problem, the problem is that CoF players don’t have access to trade.

If you’re not using trading functions in a game you’re inherently limiting yourself, which is fine… but the factions are represented as ‘equal’ to us.

It’s badly designed in that way. It would’ve been better if CoF was just a mechanic and trading also just a mechanic and that’s it, not allowing to sell any items upgraded or acquired through CoF and otherwise it being… well… nothing more then that, balanced accordingly.

I can’t speak for everyone but as a CoF player I do not want to trade, that’s the whole point, I don’t like it I don’t want to feel like I need to do it.

So yeah the problem it still is how MG players can access to exponentially higher amounts of gold and how that makes anything sold for that currency near effortless to acquire for MG players while requiring slow gold farming for CoF players.

And yes the easy solution for that problem is just separate currencies. I don’t really see any argument against having a new currency just for Bazaar interactions so far…

[DJSamhein]

@JekeTeMata

And yes the easy solution for that problem is just separate currencies. I don’t really see any argument against having a new currency just for Bazaar interactions so far…

Why would you need a new currency though? That makes no sense. If you want to separate gold from trade, just use favour directly. Rather than spending favour and specifying a gold cost, just specify favour directly. Though that will lead to other abuses, but any system will.

However, if you separate gold from trade, you might as well eliminate trade altogether. The point of trade is that you can make gold (for stash tabs or for the dungeon sink) as well as get your gear. If you aren’t allowed to simply sell stuff for gold, most people won’t bother selling anything.

What needs to happen is to give CoF an equivalent way of making gold.

[JekeTeMata]

@DJSamhein

Why would you need a new currency though? That makes no sense. If you want to separate gold from trade, just use favour directly. Rather than spending favour and specifying a gold cost, just specify favour directly. Though that will lead to other abuses, but any system will.

Yes, favor could perfectly be that trade currency, I don’t really mind how is it called or how is it obtained tbh since I don’t ever want to trade I haven’t bothered to think about it.

@DJSamhein

However, if you separate gold from trade, you might as well eliminate trade altogether. The point of trade is that you can make gold (for stash tabs or for the dungeon sink) as well as get your gear. If you aren’t allowed to simply sell stuff for gold, most people won’t bother selling anything.

Really? I thought the point of trade was buying tailored upgrades and gear for your character and sell the valuable gear you find and don’t want. If they need gold for sinks/stashes they could make do with mono gold rewards just like CoF players havet to, that’s the point of balance, the whole point of my post actually…

@DJSamhein

What needs to happen is to give CoF an equivalent way of making gold.

That’s impossible with market prices in the millions already, just add a separate currency and keep MG about trading gear just like CoF is about finding it. Having ridiculous amounts of gold is simply an unfair advantage imo.

[Demalii]

It’s true, I spent over 20 hours trying to farm a chest piece… then I spent 20 minutes rolling prophecies, went to arena t2, and then I got 3 chest pieces I needed, and 1 relic I needed. What a waste of time target farming in monos now that we have prophecies.

[DJSamhein]

@JekeTeMata

Really? I thought the point of trade was buying tailored upgrades and gear for your character and sell the valuable gear you find and don’t want. If they need gold for sinks/stashes they could make do with mono gold rewards just like CoF players havet to, that’s the point of balance, the whole point of my post actually…

The only way trade works is if you give incentives to flood the market with items.
If you don’t have any other use other than getting your gear, you won’t have an incentive to keep selling once you got that gear. I’ll just farm favour (or whichever currency) enough to buy the dozen items I want and I won’t bother selling anything else ever again, because there’s no point in continuing to do so. Which means that the market will have very few items and at that point MG is definitely way worse than CoF and just slightly better than having no faction at all.

[JekeTeMata]

Then add a favor sink? Otherwise according to you everyone should have at least one MG character so they can actually earn enough gold for stashes and sinks since the current acquisition rate is absolutely imbalanced between factions…

[JekeTeMata]

And an MG player can just go to the bazaar and buy it?

We aren’t discussing item acquisition but gold acquisition mate. And on that topic an MG player can sell an item for whatever crazy sum is worth while CoF players are limited to gold rewards in monos and whatever they pick from the floor, how is that ever going to be balanced?

[DJSamhein]

No, according to me, CoF just needs a gold source as well. It doesn’t need to be the same as MG, since it isn’t the same for gear either, where MG is still better. It just needs to be good enough for you to buy stash tabs and have surplus to sink into the dungeon if you want.

[JekeTeMata]

I could agree to that if it were possible to balance but it isn’t when market is variable and thus so are the gold amounts MG players can obtain and dispose of.

Should we just accept MG being superior not only in item acquisition but also in gold sinks exploitability?

Wouldn’t that make MG the obvious superior choice and make CoF players feel like they should go MG instead?

I know it would make me feel that way but then I’d probably quit instead because I hate trade…

[DJSamhein]

You don’t need CoF to be perfectly balanced with MG. By its very nature, MG will always be superior, given enough players.
You just need CoF to feel good. CoF players are already happy with their gear drops, even if it’s easier to gear up with MG. You just need to make them happy with their gold drops as well, even if they don’t make as much gold. Which, it should be noted, isn’t something ALL MG players do. Some will just play and mostly ignore trade and get a reasonable amount of gold from it.

[Kulze]

@JekeTeMata

I can’t speak for everyone but as a CoF player I do not want to trade, that’s the whole point, I don’t like it I don’t want to feel like I need to do it.

Yes, and that’s perfectly fine!

Which is why a system which adjusts the current state is a good thing. If you align yourself with CoF then trading becomes harder + hurdles extra (like harsh taxation) to make it nigh impossible to interact so it can’t be cross-abused in-between them.

Same that CoF through upgrading base-drops would lower your potential to have tradeable items in the first place, all those upgraded or directly dropped from the system not being able to be traded.

Problem solved without keeping players ‘stuck’ in one of those 2 factions. Which is the whole point.
It feels shit if at any time your gear becomes unable to be used and hence forces you to stay where you are even if you wanna change your playstyle. It limits you without a need to and also makes it harsh in a group. What if you love CoF but your friend you’re playing with loves trading? Why should you both be punished to not be able to trade items between each other then? As the drops which would fit him perfectly couldn’t be used despite both of you putting in time and effort into your respective faction and hence earning each specific drop individually while a system is in place to exchange items between players playing together.

@JekeTeMata

So yeah the problem it still is how MG players can access to exponentially higher amounts of gold

Where is that a problem? A CoF player doesn’t need that amount of gold, plain and simple. You can’t have the upside of CoF and MG, that’s the whole point.
CoF provides personal items.
MG provides moolah, which is then also needed to acquire items, and a lot of it as well.

@JekeTeMata

And yes the easy solution for that problem is just separate currencies. I don’t really see any argument against having a new currency just for Bazaar interactions so far…

And you won’t, because there’s no reasonable one, your solution is as good as any other one.
Why?
Because at the current state of the mechanic basically any solution is better then the current state

@DJSamhein

If you aren’t allowed to simply sell stuff for gold, most people won’t bother selling anything.

Why? If you sell items to gain favor then the high-tier items will need insane amounts of favor. Hence favor has intrinsic value, hence it’ll be used.

That’s how currency works.

If it’s to acquire gold (which already has a very good reason to exist) then it’s just saying 'I want to acquire more stash-tabs quicker. And that would be unfair. Because an MG player needs to keep that gold to buy their items a CoF player gets showered over their characters.

@DJSamhein

What needs to happen is to give CoF an equivalent way of making gold.

Then MG would have not a single upside anymore for the majority of your playthrough. It’s not that simple, but the whole mess needs nonetheless to be fixed.

@JekeTeMata

Having ridiculous amounts of gold is simply an unfair advantage imo.

Very true.

@DJSamhein

The only way trade works is if you give incentives to flood the market with items.

Yeah? What’s your point?
Ask yourself… why do you collect gold? What use does it have?
If you have 100 tabs and 50 are empty… what’s your use for more gold? (Given Lightless Arbour is ignored, but that’s beside the point)

You get gold to acquire items, so you sell items… to acquire items.

@DJSamhein

you won’t have an incentive to keep selling once you got that gear.

You won’t have any incentive to play after having all items you could ever have acquired, you make a new character as there is no goal anymore.
What you do is enjoy that character, blasting through content a while, then you pat yourself on your back mentally and say to yourself ‘well done’. Your journey is over.

@DJSamhein

I’ll just farm favour (or whichever currency) enough to buy the dozen items I want and I won’t bother selling anything else ever again

Ok, so, this helmet you wanna have costs 16 million favor, acquisition speed is the same as it is currently. Also to list something you need to spend 50% of the favor which you would acquire from it.

So… how do you get enough favor? Spent 1000 hours playing? Or do you put up items to let your already existing favor work for you?

It’s not a good option, I agree! But nonetheless a working one which is actually better then the current one.

@JekeTeMata

And on that topic an MG player can sell an item for whatever crazy sum is worth while CoF players are limited to gold rewards in monos and whatever they pick from the floor, how is that ever going to be balanced?

Once more, it doesn’t need to be since CoF players have no ‘sink’ for it like MG players do. It’s apples and oranges here despite being the same currency.

@JekeTeMata

Should we just accept MG being superior not only in item acquisition but also in gold sinks exploitability?

Any sinking of gold into Lightless Arbour for a MG player is a waste of gold. You reduce your value right away for a shiney loot shower which is as untargeted as it ever was.

So still, what does the whole discussion come down to:

MG and CoF currently compete, which inherently makes both feel like utter shite. Swift and simple.
They need to be both available but also both with their respective downside if not aligned with.
So suddenly you can trade in the worst-case scenario, and if it’s just to slap stuff inside you personally don’t need to get gold… someone sooner or later buys things.
And as MG you can take a break from farming up towards an item and just enjoy shiny loot showers instead.

And you know… all of that without fucking breaking your characters completely and utterly

[DJSamhein]

@Kulze

Why? If you sell items to gain favor then the high-tier items will need insane amounts of favor. Hence favor has intrinsic value, hence it’ll be used.

That’s how currency works.

Currency works because you have other things for spending it. Like I said, if I just want gear for my build, I’ll farm enough favour, buy a dozen items and after that I don’t need to sell anything ever again. I don’t want to buy anything else. I’m happy with my gear. So why should I bother continue selling? This is even more the case for cycle characters.

But getting gold means that I can continue selling stuff because I have other things to spend it on, namely stash tabs or dungeon gambling.

@Kulze

Then MG would have not a single upside anymore for the majority of your playthrough.

You mean other than being able to buy the exact item you want without having to farm for it? Yes, I guess not.
You clearly prefer CoF and that’s fine. I clearly prefer MG and that’s fine as well. Just like there are players that really don’t want to trade, I really don’t want to do prophecies. I hated them in PoE and I’ll hate them in LE. Having to constantly stop so I can go refresh my prophecies is annoying for me.
That’s why there are 2 systems that try to give you the same thing via different gameplays.

@Kulze

Ok, so, this helmet you wanna have costs 16 million favor, acquisition speed is the same as it is currently. Also to list something you need to spend 50% of the favor which you would acquire from it.

So… how do you get enough favor? Spent 1000 hours playing? Or do you put up items to let your already existing favor work for you?

It’s not a good option, I agree! But nonetheless a working one which is actually better then the current one.

It doesn’t matter how much it costs. I will farm the exact amount of favor I need by selling items and once I have my gear I will never sell anything ever again because I don’t need to. But the current system gives me incentives to keep selling, even if I already have all my gear, because I can spend that gold on other things.

[EngineerMan666]

You are fretting over a hypothetical problem that may never come to pass. Adding a new currency to MG creates unnecessary complication for both developers and players. Those who chose to go MG path will be the ones racing to max gold and those choosing to abstain from MG will be unaffected.

[DJSamhein]

Honestly, if the only issue is buying stash tabs, since that’s almost all gold is used for outside of MG, just make stash tabs cost favour instead.

[Lpzie]

Love the Market!!

[Kulze]

@DJSamhein

Currency works because you have other things for spending it

No, currency works because it has some perceived value.

The ability to acquire items with it gives it perceived value.

Welcome, you have a currency.
It’s that simple.

@DJSamhein

You mean other than being able to buy the exact item you want without having to farm for it? Yes, I guess not.

You mean the item which at the start of a cycle is extremely unlikely to be listed or acquired by you personally?
Or do you mean the lack in funds as you look at it with longing eyes knowing you’ll need 40 more hours of play-time until you can afford the single one?

@DJSamhein

You clearly prefer CoF and that’s fine.

I actually prefer MG, but it’s nice to see that even as someone playing in MG and knowing the power of MG I’m perceived as someone who prefers CoF. I was able to buy 3 items through MG to date which were useful, level 99 currently.

Doesn’t change the parts in which each system is better/worse or what it does badly/well long-term.
MG is the way to go if you wanna get the best stuff.
CoF is the way to go if you want a upper-tier outfitted character.

I’m not happy with ‘upper tier’, I want the best, and I’m willing to put the effort into it, which is what trading is for. But it nonetheless means I don’t have the funds for my gear despite being vastly past normal end-game and I can’t even access those items in the first place through mechanical limitations even if I had the currency available. We need not to speak about acquiring stash-tabs as I’m at 400k per, so it would set me back majorly to buy one more.

@DJSamhein

That’s why there are 2 systems that try to give you the same thing via different gameplays.

Yes, I’m not arguing against that, actually for that.
I’ma rguing against the current execution of the system and that there’s better options available to get the same outcome with vastly less frustration and friction while upholding a functioning market and not forcing solo-players into using any trading mechanic.

@DJSamhein

I will farm the exact amount of favor I need by selling items and once I have my gear I will never sell anything ever again because I don’t need to.

Same for CoF. Same for everything in any game.
When you’re ‘done’ with everything you wanna do you quit. That’s it.
Is that so hard to understand?
What are you going to do when it’s over, farm… for what? You’re finished, there’s no possible upgrade, nothing to beat, nothing to push towards as you know the limits of your character and you’re not competing against anything furthermore.

@DJSamhein

But the current system gives me incentives to keep selling, even if I already have all my gear, because I can spend that gold on other things.

Which ones? You have your gear. What incentive is there, go into detail about that please.

[DJSamhein]

@Kulze

Or do you mean the lack in funds as you look at it with longing eyes knowing you’ll need 40 more hours of play-time until you can afford the single one?

How would that change with another currency though? You’d still need to farm however much it is and it wouldn’t be cheap whether you use gold, favour, merchant tokens or flabergarble.

@Kulze

MG is the way to go if you wanna get the best stuff.
CoF is the way to go if you want a upper-tier outfitted character.

I feel this applies only to cycles. In legacy MG is clearly superior in everything.

@Kulze

Same for CoF. Same for everything in any game.
When you’re ‘done’ with everything you wanna do you quit. That’s it.
Is that so hard to understand?

That’s not what I said. I said that I will farm favour for a week or two, selling items so I have more “currency”. And after those weeks, I have my gear, so I will play the next two months actively, every day, and I will sell nothing at all because I have no reason to.
If you get a currency that only serves the purpose for trading, then when I am done with trading I won’t sell anything ever again until the next cycle.
If you get a currency that has other purposes, I will continue selling stuff in those 2 months, because I have other things to spend my gold on.
Is that so hard to understand.

@Kulze

What are you going to do when it’s over, farm… for what? You’re finished, there’s no possible upgrade, nothing to beat, nothing to push towards as you know the limits of your character and you’re not competing against anything furthermore.

There is, I still have corruption to push, bosses to farm, etc. I just don’t bother with gear anymore.

@Kulze

Which ones? You have your gear. What incentive is there, go into detail about that please.

Stash tabs, for one. Buying shatter runes at the vendor. Sinking gold into the dungeon and see if I get an uber drop just for fun.
Just because I’m happy with my gear doesn’t mean I stop having fun with the game. There are still mechanics to interact with. Besides, with MG you can get full gear and still be level 80, so lots to do still.

[Kulze]

@DJSamhein

How would that change with another currency though?

Because then I wouldn’t need to reach rank 8… 9… 10… to do it
I would be limited by funds only and a free supply/demand market, which is one I can understand and aligns with what the community sees as valuable or not. I won’t get much demanded items easily and I’m fine with it… while I’m free to put all sorts of high supply items together freely and make something out of it which can turn out amazing nonetheless.

Like this I can just look at it and say ‘Yeah, Here’s my gold, I have the funds for 5 items… but alas… guess more farming for my 1 LP unique or legendary with 1 stat on it’

You see the issue?
A 4 LP item won’t be able to be acquired because it’s rare and I can’t afford it.
The same 1 LP item will be affordable but I can’t because the system stops me from doing it.

@DJSamhein

In legacy MG is clearly superior in everything.

Obviously, because MG is purely for the long-term amazing.

@DJSamhein

That’s not what I said. I said that I will farm favour for a week or two, selling items so I have more “currency”

And if one item costs 500 mil?
Is that a week or 2? Or a month or 2?
What if you want 4 of those items?

Put the best of the best into perspective, players tend to stop vastly before that anyway… and if someone’s so invested in the game (like me) then they’re going to make a second character once again investing that time to get there.
And during that time new content will come out allowing to farm even more diverse items and builds.

But it’s not remotely affecting the people which aren’t so invested, the current system gives them a bitch-slap and tells them off, making those people go to CoF despite enjoying trading items greatly.

And during all that time you’re farming up stuff you’ll put on items to get more currency along the line. Maybe even buy some items since they fit or are lightly better then what you’ve got, and if it’s only the rolls on the outcomes.

Each of those bought items gets removed from the pool of available ones, causing high value items only to stay high value still… while the other stuff pushes people upwards swiftly.

You know what’s worse? Flooding the market with needless garbage to farm reputation, since that garbage clutters the system, follows no rhyme or reason for pricing and makes it impossible to properly value your items outside of outliers.

@DJSamhein

There is, I still have corruption to push, bosses to farm, etc. I just don’t bother with gear anymore.

You already have the gear you needed from the bosses, you kill them half asleep by then.
Corruption… you have a clear knowledge of how much you can push it before you’re a sleeping on the ground over and over again. Arena… same here, you know what your build can do, it’s static, it’s stale.

As said, you’ll ‘enjoy it’ for a while and then it’s done and gone. That’s natural and how it goes.

@DJSamhein

Stash tabs, for one. Buying shatter runes at the vendor. Sinking gold into the dungeon and see if I get an uber drop just for fun.

200 max stash tabs, with such masses of gold you would need and can acquire you’ll have that ‘quickly’.
Shatter runes? What are you shattering when you already have everything? You just gather shards then which won’t be used.
The dungeon can be fun for a few times, will get stale too. Everything does. You do stuff for ‘vanity’ by then. Barely any person stays interested in pure vanity for long as it commonly starts to feel meaningless.
It’s a normal reaction.
Why do you think the retention time people interact with a game becomes vastly less when they’re using cheat codes to breeze through? Because they acquire everything the journey is there for a lot quicker and hence stop.

That’s why there needs to be a slowdown method for acquisition… but not a pure stop-gap to make it impossible.

[DJSamhein]

@Kulze

A 4 LP item won’t be able to be acquired because it’s rare and I can’t afford it.
The same 1 LP item will be affordable but I can’t because the system stops me from doing it.

I agree with this. I think the ranks need to be rebalanced. Honestly, I would be fine not having ranks at all. Just keep the system as is and get rid of ranks and let people buy and sell anything they want. They already can’t resell it anyway, so I don’t see an issue with it.

@Kulze

Put the best of the best into perspective, players tend to stop vastly before that anyway… and if someone’s so invested in the game (like me) then they’re going to make a second character once again investing that time to get there.
And during that time new content will come out allowing to farm even more diverse items and builds.

I see your point and I concede to it in some measure. But the point still stands that even if you make new characters, if the currency serves only for trade, you will only farm enough to trade. However much it is, you will amass that and then stop amassing it until you need to trade again. The amount of time you need to farm to gear your character will always be smaller than the amount of time you spend with that characters. Because once it’s fully geared you’ll still want to play with it, even if just a couple days to see it in action.

But if you have gold, or some other currency which you can use elsewhere, you’ll continue to sell stuff regularly, even if you never intend to buy anything else in the foreseeable future, because you have somewhere to spend it on.

It’s the reason why businessses that tried in-house currency (in the form of fake money or vouchers or whatever) usually experience a boost in trades initially and then it falls off.

@Kulze

But it’s not remotely affecting the people which aren’t so invested, the current system gives them a bitch-slap and tells them off, making those people go to CoF despite enjoying trading items greatly.

I also agree with this. Again, ranks need to either be rebalanced or thrown away. But players that aren’t too invested are usually happy with yellow gear and 0LP uniques, and MG lets them get geared up for empowered monos pretty fast, as does CoF.

@Kulze

You know what’s worse? Flooding the market with needless garbage to farm reputation, since that garbage clutters the system, follows no rhyme or reason for pricing and makes it impossible to properly value your items outside of outliers.

I also agree with this somewhat. But on the other hand, having lots of “useless” items for almost free is useful for the newer players that don’t yet have much gold. Many of those useless items are actually somewhat useful for new casual players to get started for almost no cost.
After all, PoE doesn’t have these restrictions and their market is still flooded by lots of useless items anyway…

As for assessing the value of what you want to sell, I think that’s only an issue because we don’t have a good UI. If we had something even similar to PoE’s trade search, this wouldn’t be an issue.

@Kulze

You already have the gear you needed from the bosses, you kill them half asleep by then.
Corruption… you have a clear knowledge of how much you can push it before you’re a sleeping on the ground over and over again. Arena… same here, you know what your build can do, it’s static, it’s stale.

As said, you’ll ‘enjoy it’ for a while and then it’s done and gone. That’s natural and how it goes.

It will really depend on the type of player. Personally, I like gearing up my char in half decent gear and then use that to farm stuff for the rest of my characters. All the while having the option to be able to buy upgrades for my gear or to buy that specific gear that simply won’t drop but I need for whatever build.,

So once I’m done buying the gear for character A, I will stop trading and just farm for other characters. Honestly, if it weren’t for the prophecies system, I actually might enjoy CoF, since I’m never looking for BiS gear, just good enough gear to do the content. But sadly I hate that mechanic, feeling it breaks my game flow contstantly.

[Kulze]

@DJSamhein

But if you have gold, or some other currency which you can use elsewhere, you’ll continue to sell stuff regularly, even if you never intend to buy anything else in the foreseeable future, because you have somewhere to spend it on.

Yes, for that we need a ‘proper’ gold sink though. The Lightless Arbour doesn’t cut it, and neither do stash-tabs, you run out of reason before long. The first because the perceived value of the dungeon is vastly less then the outcome… commonly at least. Big gamba sessions there are helluva fun though! Can’t deny that. Going in with 50 mil and spending it all at once and then have loot explode? Obvious sudden dopamine rush.

Which comes back to the trade tax itself. It auto-corrects inflation to a degree and the limitation - given that rank adjustments are made - being higher taxation for newcomers.

@DJSamhein

having lots of “useless” items for almost free is useful for the newer players that don’t yet have much gold.

And then they rush through the campaign, beat everything in a single day, arrive at monos, get bitch-slapped there and come to the forums whining ‘Stuff’s too hard!’ since during the whole time they were given the common D3 experience.

It hurts retention time massively, the campaign is meant to take a specific amount of time, the shortcuts are already doing a good thing to cut it down at the cost of longevity for the game (which is made up for in popularity though, one less frustrating thing after all). And that will get streamlined further as EHG explained.

But outright trivializing early content because trade exists is obviously also a bad choice, the best case is that those underpriced situations never exist… and in a healthy uncontrolled market they actually are fairly rare.
Here it’s prevalent. Which is a negative.

@DJSamhein

After all, PoE doesn’t have these restrictions and their market is still flooded by lots of useless items anyway…

Yeah, but listing items has no downside there. So players need to invest no effort to get the right bucks for their time, they get ‘something’ and are happy for it.
But since they can’t buy items without favor the listing itself would need to be thought through.

My personal choice there would be to cut favor gains for MG to 1/10th actually, making it vastly harder to acquire! So then you only list items which actually have value… and you really need to work to afford items. Profit or power? Your choice! It causes those flooding situations to cease.

@DJSamhein

Honestly, if it weren’t for the prophecies system, I actually might enjoy CoF

It’s not very optimally done, works at least as intended, which is something I can give a thumbs up.
My solution for it was to only take prophecies once daily. Start a play-session, go over, spend all my points for what I need and then play normally. What drops that drops. And if I loose patience I target farm.
25 unique helmets with one boss is a decent outcome this way I would say. Several with 3 LP and one Wraithlord Arbour. Gotta say more then fine for solo-play, actually quite ridiciulous since you need to leave non LP uniques behind at times and it’s nigh zero effort in the end.

This way it doesn’t break the game flow at all, you just have to use it very very sparingly.