Hiiii - so for sake of this question, the character has a weapon and no other items, they also have no points in any skill or passives.
1: I have a weapon, it has on it 90 melee damage and 50 melee fire damage. It also has 50% increased fire damage. If I then add 350% fire damage taking it to 400% fire damage. Is it as simple in this situation its 50 fire damage x 400% giving me 200 added melee fire damage equivalent?
2: I have a weapon, it has 90 melee, 50 melee fire and 50% inc fire. I slap 100 melee fire, it now has 150 melee fire and 50% increased fire giving me 75 melee fire equivalent?
3: If what I said above is correct the best thing in THIS situation for more fire damage is the added percent to buff the base fire melee with the highest multiplier?
4: If what I said is above is wrong (most likely) please simplify what youâre going to write as much as you can because Iâm stupid (looks at Heavy, DJ and Llama)
Basically, weâre assuming no skill, just the default melee attack. Because otherwise things could change. For example, if you have a melee fire skill, then the 90 melee damage would also get added to it.
Overall, flat damage is more impactful early on, which is why we suggest to new players to upgrade their weapon.
However, as you get more and more sources of flat damage, % damage becomes stronger.
Ultimately, you want a balance of both and they work in percentages as well, because theyâre all multipliers:
-If you have 200 flat damage, adding 50 damage is a 25% increase. If you have 50 and add 50 itâs a 100% increase.
-Same for increased damage. If you have 50% increased damage, adding 100% is a 200% increase. If you have 200%, adding 100% is a 50% increase.
So you need a healthy dose of flat damage and a healthy dose of %increased damage. How much of each depends on your âcheapâ sources of each.
Most flat damage will come from either your skill or your passive tree, so you tend to disregard flat damage in the weapon towards endgame (not always, but in plenty of cases).
I asked this in dev chat yesterday about another weapon I had lil axe with 65 melee, 40 void on it and asked if I convert my phys base to void would that 65 melee be treated as void (I assumed it would) but he said no it wouldnât (wasnât a dev was a mod). It makes sense it would though since itâs physical melee and the base is converted from phys to whatever element right? Either way thank you this was about a specific weapon.
I am unsure off top of my head if you can get +melee on anything other than the weapon so I was trying to work out before building if it would be more beneficial to add the flat melee + % on items or just keep the default which is 45-65 depending on roll, sounds like adding % on this would be better over all end game.
Melee Damage is generally only on Weapon Implicits. Any other added source of melee damage is a specific damage type usually.
There are also Weapon Implicits that already have a specific damage types. so those wonât convert either.
I think you need to ask for specifically and tell us what skill are you using?
There is no Phys to Void conversion as far as I know.
I asume you are talking about Rive or Vengeance, they are physical baseline and can both be converted to Void. This would mean the 65 melee damage will be Void Melee Damage.
If your skill gets converted and gets the void tag, then the 65 melee + 40 void would effectively add 105 void.
Most of your flat damage will usually come from the skill itself, or from the passive tree.
In most cases having a +60 or +80 weapon wonât be a big difference in the endgame, so you tend to pick the weapon for the other implicits or the affixes (in the case of uniques).
However, this isnât always the case and in some cases (forged weapons is the most prominent one, but also some melee skills) you want a higher flat damage over the rest of the affixes.
As I said, you want both (flat and %) in a big enough dose, but they both have diminishing returns the more you have.
Just as a side note - if there are multiple types of flat melee damage on your weapon (like say void and physical), and you use a melee skill, those two damage types will be calculated separately and then added together to get the final damage amount. In other words, a melee skill could do like 100 phys damage AND 50 void damage. This usually isnât ideal because you want to scale just one damage type. But anyways, just pointing out that the damages stay separate unless they are specifically converted in the skill tree or on equipment
Interesting as everyone and their dog is after a T7 melee void 119 for their world splitter as the best first case before they are able to get an lp2 and then they try add a secondary (usually crit multi or speed) - also with physical javelin adding 50% of melee damage to the skill the main slam on the jav is 119 max T7 melee damage.
The void skill was indeed rive in that instance @Heavy the temporal warrior skill top left of the tree the mod (not dev) flat out said it wouldnât be converted you guys say it will, I think it will but @WasabeXX just confused me more saying itâll be calculated seperately then added which I dont know what that means haha! But I do remember ages ago learning about the different damages being added seperately and trying to stack as much damage of one type together. That was in another thread yâall helped me with fire/phys throwing lol!
The void thing isnt much of an issue the axe is only a level 15 taste of blood itâs just got a a ton of melee damage on it so i was wondering if its worth it because weirdly when you equip things with 2 diff damage types it still scales really high, kind of like once you convert a skill from physical to element and have a ring with 120% phys added it still does or says its doing way more damage than a ring with the same elemental % added.
Conversion is just plain weird - taking shurikens from 75% lightning to 100% lightning even with weapons with a T7 lightning and T6 lightning pen on them, suddenly the damage drops heaps, put on a weapon with T7 physical and it goes up - just straight up WEIRD lol the dps tag in this game is super misleading
Anyways thanks heaps the original post was for a Volcanus slam and attempt at ignite rive I was going to do but I bricked both slams on the sword missing double T7 and getting T7 and T4 the same flop on both haha so didnt even end up doing it but it was very good to learn the mechanics of % vs flat and how to scale with a good amount of flat and adding %
The 65 âmeleeâ is not âphysical meleeâ, itâs solely âmeleeâ.
That means itâs adaptive, all types at once.
So your 65 melee + 40 void melee becomes a total of 105 void melee ultimately.
All + % inc modifiers work off of the 105 this way.
Which means exactly:
In this situation you have â90 adaptive melee damageâ and â50 fire melee damageâ.
So if you have 400% inc on it then that means the total of â140 fire melee damageâ becomes â560 fire melee damageâ in the end.
Here itâs 50% inc, 90 adaptive and 150 fire.
That means a total of 240 fire and 50% inc.
The formula is for that: 240 x 1,5 = 360.
To break it down numerically and with words to complete formula is:
(90 + 150) x (1 + 0,5) = 360
(Adaptive melee + Fire melee) x (base damage + increased damage) = Total damage.
@DJSamhein you messed up the math there a bit this time, for a change instead of me
For melee weapons the overall consensus is to put flat damage onto them. The majority of Melee skills have basically a non-existent base damage on them.
As examples:
Warpath has 1 physical and a damage effectiveness of 60%, so scaling it directly is very hard anyway.
Rive has 2 physical and damage effectiveness of 125%, a bit better but awful base damage nonetheless.
Even one of the strongest skills currently, Erasing Strike has only 2 void damage base, but a added damage effectiveness of 600%, which is why itâs so strong.
Now for a direct full example related to you weapon
If we take âEarthquakeâ with the fire conversion it would look like this:
Your weapon has 90 melee, 50 fire, 50% inc.
Erathquake has 2 base fire damage and 600% damage effectiveness.
The way to math it out is hence the following:
(2 + 90 + 50) x (1 + 0,5) x (6) = 1278 Damage.
(Skill base damage + Adaptive Melee Damage + Melee Fire Damage) x (Base Damage + Increased) x (Damage effectiveness) = Total Damage.
Yes, you can.
Idols can roll it.
The passive tree can have nodes related to it.
The skill tree itself can have nodes added to it.
Potentially uniques as well which arenât the weapon slot.
Also potentially set affixes.
It always depends.
You have to take the totality of all sources into consideration.
For example in the âEarthquakeâ Scenario we would need to consider the passive tree, the skill itself, the weapon, the idols and the blessings.
A quick shoddy setup for shaman provided me with the following stats, only considering a full setup of passives, 20 skill points and idols. No gear. Also Fire shaman sucks.
Which leads to this formula:
(5 + 2 + 46) x (1 + 1,13 + 0,4 + 0,5 +1,6 + 1 + 3,4) x (1 + 1,75 + 1) x (6) = 53 x 9,03 x 3,75 x 6 = 10762 Damage
In words:
(Passive base damage + skill base damage + idol base damage) x (base inc + passive melee inc + passive shared inc + elemental inc + idol melee inc + blessing fire inc + attribute inc) x (base more multi + skill more mulit + skill more boss/rare multi) x (damage effectiveness) = Total damage
simplified:
(Base damage) x (Inc damage) x (More damage) x (Effectiveness) = Total damage
So now you got a load of avenues with different values.
For us interesting are only âBase damageâ and âIncreased damageâ since those can be on a weapon.
So coming back to this:
Providing:
Base damage = 140
Increased damage = 50%
With our example:
Base damage = 53
Increased damage = 903%
Each of the respective values would increase total damage by this percentile:
Base damage percentile increase = 140/53 = 2,64 = 264%
Increased damage percentile increase = 50/904 = 5,5%
Equivalent amount of percentile inc needed for the same increase = 904x2,64 = 2386%
So in this example base damage would provide massively more damage compared to the increased damage.
To gain as much damage as with the base damage increase you would need to provide an equivalent of 2386% inc damage.
I hope the whole breakdown is understandable and I didnât make any major mistakes.
This is how you can see which specific value will provide you with the most improvement out of the available ones.
