The only thing you have done is reiterate my point:
Sounds like the (only) reason why you think Last Epoch’s masteries are a character’s class and Path of Exile’s ascendancies aren’t would be because the former cannot be changed while the latter can. Which is disingenuous, to say the least, when the point presented earlier was that Last Epoch’s masteries should not be changeable because they are the character’s class.
No, we’ve heard you. We are simply pointing out that there are other points of view at play here than your own.
The only issue in this discussion is that you are unwilling to entertain the notion that other points of view than your own may be equally valid, and that there are other good choices for the devs than putting the casual pointer 100% in your direction, when they’ve already made huge steps in your direction in the first place.
I would consider that an improvement over the current passive point system. Not perfect, but still an improvement.
As for the skill points, I would be happy for them to make the ability to get back your points faster at low/mid levels, and longer at high levels (or rather, make the high level/corruption areas not reward so much more skill XP than lower level/corruption areas).
I am all for good solutions to correct slight mistakes (respec a few points here or there) or try stuff out while leveling. My issue is with completely changing a build at a snap of the fingers, which removes the sense of ownership of your character. When I am making a bouncing werebear druid, it’s not at the same time a spriggan-to-swarmblade dual-form build, and even less a raptor pack leader one.
It is very important that there be some significant hurdles to respec, just as much as it is important to be able to respec.
Which is why I’d definitely advocate for the same kind of cost for passives, though not as heavy as the 1 to 1 that’s present in skills (and with a warning when you are going to respec below what your current equipment requires), so that it’s meaningful without being prohibitive.
Firstly, how is that disingenuous? “A character’s class should not be changeable because they are the characters class, therefore I think that Last Epoch’s Masteries, which cannot be changed, are classes. While Path of Exiles Ascendancies, which can be changes, are not.” seems like I’m being pretty genuine in my feelings on the subject?
Secondly, while that feeling is one of the major reasons for why I feel that LEs masteries are a characters class, the first and foremost reason why I feel that way is because the developers of the game, the ones who made the design decision the ones who have heard all this feedback over the early access cycle repeatedly have said: “the Mastery Class IS your class” repeatedly. So if the developers who made the game have the design intent that “Mastery” means “Class” then anyone who says otherwise is wrong. Plain and simple.
This isn’t a case of a feature being tested for their design is poorly implemented. This is a major identity of the game. With Dynamic Damage Reduction being replaced by Boss Ward, the design intent stays the same (Prevent people from one shotting bosses), while the implementation changed due to player feedback. Removing the lock on Mastery undoes their intent for the Mastery being a permanent choice.
I haven’t read through everything on here but my take on this is Mastery is fine, it is basically your chosen class. They could let you choose it at the start of the game and still force you to put points into your starter class before your mastery and it would make almost no difference as you usually get to the point in the story where you choose mastery at the same time as you fill out your first 20 points.
At this point, skill respecs should just be at an NPC and the skill slot should level once and only once.
If their concern is that people will change for a boss fight from AoE to single target then that’s not a problem as that can already be done. I can get enough stability to run the boss then change my skills, run another easy echo to level them, go do the boss and change back. If I am pushing max progression the extra couple minutes to do this doesn’t really matter. The main inconvenience here is having to constantly put the skills in again.
The current system is only designed as an inconveniance at best and only stops people from experimenting with new skills and builds early in the game.
Yes, that is the whole point as has been said before. Skill respec has low attrition that it’s irrelevant when you simply want to switch builds or make a few experiments, but it has enough attrition that doing that every single time is too annoying for almost anyone to do.
That is the whole point. You spend 2 minutes switching setup (plus another 2 minutes to switch back) which is already annoying and in the end you probably won’t even save 4 whole minutes from the fight.
Not really, no.
Does not really matter.
The discussion in this topic is not whether masteries are a character’s class or not. Rather, whether we should be allowed to change them or not.
Your point basically is, that we should not be allowed to change a character’s mastery because it’s a character class. And why shouldn’t we be allowed to change a character’s class? Because it’s a character’s class. That’s not really an argument, it’s circular reasoning.
When presented to Path of Exile’s ascendancies, which are like LE’s mastery in everything but the fact they may be changed, your reply is to claim that PoE’s ascendacies are not a character’s class. Why? Because they can be changed, and a character’s class cannot be changed. Again, that’s not an argument - it’s circular reasoning.
The flaw in your line of thought is equating “class” to “cannot be changed”. You have made no argument to defend this idea, merely stated it as if it were a fact.
Not really sure what you are saying here? Are you saying that the additional couple minutes to run the Echo to switch is enough inconvenience to NEVER switch skills before a boss fight?
If you are then you don’t understand min/max progression. If the ONLY way to beat the content or to progress is to switch builds then that is what people will do.
I will make this simpler for you. They currently ALLOW you to switch skills before a monolith boss fight, you just have to level them first. So the argument that they want to stop people from hot swapping skills is a moot point because you already can.
Even if it was instant, very few would do it unless they were reasonably certain they wouldn’t win in their current spec.
So why not let the newbies and experimenters have their day and make it a little easier for them with almost no drawback.
You’re the one that seems to misunderstand. If you have to spend 5 minutes switching back and forth between setups, you will only do it if you save a significant amount of time. So if a boss requires 10 minutes to kill and you spend 5 minutes switching, you won’t switch if it still takes 5 minutes. Almost no one will switch if it will take 4 minutes, because the hassle of doing that all the time just to save 1 minute is not worth it.
However, if it were instant everyone would do it even if it just saved 30 seconds.
Just look at PoE. You can instantly switch skills at any time and as a result everyone has an alternate set of gems to switch before a boss.
This is what the devs don’t want and what the current system prevents.
If you truly want to switch your build or adjust something, 5 minutes isn’t a big deal. But if you want to do it to cheese content, then it becomes too annoying and you need to have a really big gain to justify it.
YEs, except it isn’t the only way. You can still beat the content, it’s just not as fast. But if you could switch instantly, people would. Because given the choice “Would you rather spend 10 minutes beating this fight, or have the exact same effort and spend 5 minutes instead?” everyone clearly chooses the 2nd one.
While it’s true (and everyone agrees) that the system should be tuned so that it affects early game less, skill respec is not an issue for campaign. I’ve respecced multiple times at level 4, 10 or 20 and it didn’t top my progression at all.
It’s just when you’re new that you’re surprised by it.
As for experimenters, if you just want to try out a few variations at endgame, it’s not a big deal either.
If you simply want to theorycraft and constantly adjust stuff, then my idea above (you can search for it) of turning the arena dummies area into a free respec area (including mastery and class) would be a good solution. You tried things out, when you left you were back in your spec, but you already knew what you wanted to do.
The solution is not to scape the current method which is fulfilling its purpose, is to come up with another alternative for the non-cheesing cases…
So this is what I have been saying the entire time… the only difference is that, the switching system exists so there is no reason to gate it behind a minor inconvenience.
Apparently you didn’t read the whole thing.
If you keep the inconvenience, people won’t use it. Not unless it has a huge advantage, which currently it doesn’t.
However, if you remove the inconvenience, then everyone will switch builds all the time just to save 30s.
This would still do the same thing as mastery swapping. Just with skills
Once u have all skills leveled up u can just swap skills on the fly. No downside at all once all skills are maxed out level wise.
As well as remove the need to balance ur builds around single target and clear speed. Any form of swapping be it skills or mastery class will do this.
Why do u players keep wanting to change a gakes identity to that of D3. I dont want another D3
I don’t really need to say anymore because you CAN switch to a different build for bossing, whether it is convenient or not. It is still possible, therefore the entire reasoning behind the system is completly out the window.
If people are swapping builds on insignificant content that they could have done on their current build that does not matter, they would have beaten it regardless.
It ONLY matters if they are swapping on content that they could not have completed on their current build, and currently the system does not stop people from doing this so therefore it does not need to exist.
It seems you still don’t understand. No one disputes that you can. Of course you can. It’s just not worth it. WHICH IS ALL THAT SYSTEM WANTS TO ACCOMPLISH!!
It’s annoying enough that ONLY THE MOST OCD of min-maxers will do that.
But, and this is important, if you remove that restriction and allow instant switch, EVERYONE WILL USE IT!!
Is it that hard to understand? The current system makes it so that 99% of players don’t want to do that because it’s annoying.
Removing it would make it so that 99% of the players would do that all the time because there’s no downside.
Do you understand this time, or will you say the same thing using different words one more time?
Thats pretty much where all this swapping on the fly stuff came from.
It’s not worth it… until it is.
99% of players may not want to do it but it’s the 1% that do you are targeting, regardless as to whether it was easy or hard you might go from 1% doing it to 10%. Most people still would not change specs on a boss if they can easily kill it on there current one.
The person missing the point here is you. When it comes down to the crunch and the most efficient way to progress is swapping then they WILL go through that minor inconvenience to swap. It is also at this high level of play that this advantage comes into effect and could make the difference between top of the ladder and #10.
So if they are going to allow it in the first place, why make it annoying? If they don’t want people to do it then make it a hard reset and increase the xp required to get to 20. Just currently they are in this limbo that benefits nobody.
No they shouldn’t cater to as many players as it can.
Thats the problem with the games industry today. Its also how we ended up with the crappy D3 and D4.
What games should be doing is picking a plauer base they want the game to target. And build a game that aims at that target player base. Thats exactly whats happening here woth LE
No it isn’t. If the devs wanted to target the 1% they would simply make skills not be respeccable. Or require a lot more XP to level. There are ways to prevent it.
What the devs don’t want is for LE to turn in to D3 where the 99% are switching builds instantly 50 times a day because there’s no downside.
Yes they will myself excluded. There are ALOT of players that would leave LE. If D3 style respecing or mastery class swapping game into the game.
I quit playing D3 cuz of that. This game isnt targeting D3 players
I wont stick around if this game turns more into D3. Iv been playing for 5 yrs now for a reason as well as supported EHG
The current system in place does not stop you from changing your spec 50 times a day though. What they want is for people to complete content in the setup they enter with.
It has nothing to do with how often you can change your build. It is about hot swapping to make a boss or encounter within a map/monolith/dungeon ect easier. This is what they are stopping, and currently while it is effective in the easier content, it is not effective in the content that it would matter for.
The system is effective in preventing the majority from doing it simply because the majority of players are not meta gamers, don’t care about leaderboards and just want to have fun whacking at stuff.
Removing the system would also simply make a bunch of players leave, especially a bunch of players that have been with EHG since the start.
But you won’t change your mind (not that you should) nor do you really see the point in the current system being just slightly restrictive, rather than full on restrictive or not restrictive at all.
So there’s really no point in us continuing to say the same thing to each other in slightly different words. You’ve made your point known, as have I (and others in this thread). Let’s just move on.