Lich - Death Seal - Devouring Release - Allow Multi Hungering Souls

[DenisTRUFFAUT]

The node “Lich - Death Seal - Devouring Release” says:

You now repeatly cast Hungering Souls while you are sealed.
Hungering Souls cast this way has a 70% chance to have only 1 projectile.

But

The node “Acolyte - Hungering Souls - Isolation” says

Souls are significantly larger and deal more hit damage,
but only one is created with each cast

Which means there are 2 nodes in different skills controling the number of Hungering Souls cast.

My opinion is the node “Lich - Death Seal - Devouring Release” tries to pigeon hole the build by forcing the usage of the node “Acolyte - Hungering Souls - Isolation”.

Which is bad.

For the sake of build diversity, the node “Lich - Death Seal - Devouring Release” should be:

You now repeatly cast Hungering souls while you are sealed.
Hungering Souls cast this way has a 70% chance to have only 1 projectile.

So its up to the player to determine the playstyle it wants for its Hungering Souls by specializing this skill directly in the Hungering Souls tree.

This way, the player can passively cast tons of Hungering Souls and make good usage of their “on hit” to trigger various effects.

Performance issues with multiple Hungering Souls have been solved with the Patch 0.9. This node can now be refactored to unleash a tsunami of Hungering Souls

[Llama8]

@DenisTRUFFAUT

My opinion is the node “Lich - Death Seal - Devouring Release” tries to pigeon hole the build by forcing the usage of the node “Acolyte - Hungering Souls - Isolation”.

That’s what it used to do, now it has a 30% chance to cast the usual amount of Souls which is a significant improvement & means that you are no longer pidgeon holed into using Isolation.

[DenisTRUFFAUT]

Interesting.

But unsufficient.

Developer’s choice VS Player’s choice.

Why not leave the final choice to the player ?

Would’nt it be better if player had full control on the result ?

You now repeatly cast Hungering Souls while you are sealed.

If devs really want to keep some RNG, then I would suggest to avoid the current binary output (30% chance of All Hungering Souls or 70% chance of only 1 Hungering Soul, which is bad when using multiple Hungering Souls) by altering the power like this:

While you are sealed, you repeatly cast 50% to 100% of your Hungering Souls projectiles, with a minimum of 1 projectile.

This way there are always some Hungering Souls that are released (Average : 75% of Max Hungering Souls), and if the player choose to output only one via “Isolation”, then the minimum of 1 projectile corrects the output to 1 projectile.

[Llama8]

@DenisTRUFFAUT

Interesting.

But unsufficient.

That’s your call, but they have given us more choice. We are no longer pidgeon hole’d into using that node.

@DenisTRUFFAUT

Why not leave the final choice to the player ?

Because it’s the developer’s game? They set the ground rules that we need to follow when creating builds.

@DenisTRUFFAUT

Would’nt it be better if player had full control on the result ?

If that were the case, nobody would ever go with anything less than all the Souls.

If you just want to buff the power of that node, that’s fine. But that’s all this is.

[DenisTRUFFAUT]

@Llama8

If that were the case, nobody would ever go with anything less than all the Souls. If you just want to buff the power of that node, that’s fine

I have done maths, and it appears that multiple souls are weaker than the big one

The big one : isolation, great soul, fire skull, eternal pyre, devouring release
1 * 2 * 2 *1.5 * 2 * 1 = x12
I did not take into account the critical nodes.

The small ones: risen cemetery, descent into madness, devouring release
5 * 2 * 2 *0.3 = x6
I did not take into account the remaning points, as remaining nodes don’t increase damage in such way they would make a difference.

I find multiple Hungering Souls super pretty.
A lot more pretty interms of aesthetics than the big fire one.

There is also an on-hit mechanic.
Multiple souls = Multiple hits.

Sadly, multiple souls are currently so weak.

[GoldenExperience]

@DenisTRUFFAUT

The small ones: risen cemetery, descent into madness, devouring release
5 * 2 * 2 *0.3 = x6

Wut… how did you get this? and why ignore nodes like unholy trinity and grave bond ?

One cast of hungering souls only hits an enemy once, it cannot shotgun. Multiple souls doesn’t help with damage, only clear speed(hitting multiple enemies). Since death seal automates this it would be insane clear if it had no projectile limit(walking simulator).

Isolation path also locks you into fire/ignite damage which is much less supported by lich passives compared to necrotic/poison.

However with patch 0.9 the unique staff curse of perseverance can change Hungering souls to cast multiple skulls in a line(instead of spread) and is the only way skulls can shotgun enemies.

[Llama8]

@GoldenExperience

One cast of hungering souls only hits an enemy once, it cannot shotgun

It does with the Curse of Perseverance staff & by my maths, that should be x3.7 (40% chance for 6 extra Souls = 2.4 on average + 5 base souls = 7.4 x (1-0.63) = 2.7 → x3.7 more damage). Also, if you’re going single soul, you can use a much better weapon (& offhand if you wish).

[DenisTRUFFAUT]

@GoldenExperience

why ignore nodes like unholy trinity and grave bond

Because in one case or the other, they will be taken anyway (pretty much mandatory considering they are multiplicative), so they don’t carry any difference between 1 big Hungering Soul or N tiny Hungering Souls.

@GoldenExperience

if it had no projectile limit

There is a projectile limit, defined in last resort by your Hungering Soul specialization.

@GoldenExperience

walking simulator

I like them.

Passive Wandering Spirits is one of my favorite builds, especially for long sessions of play. It feels very relaxing.

@GoldenExperience

Isolation path also locks you into fire/ignite damage which is much less supported by lich passives compared to necrotic/poison.

I do agree that Fire support is more rare.

But the multipliers in the Hungering Souls tree are so high for the 1 big Fire Hungering Soul that it breaks the competition.

It shadows all other Hungering Souls builds.

@GoldenExperience

One cast of hungering souls only hits an enemy once, it cannot shotgun

@GoldenExperience

However with patch 0.9 the unique staff curse of perseverance can change Hungering souls to cast multiple skulls in a line(instead of spread) and is the only way skulls can shotgun enemies.

Curse of Perseverance

Hungering Souls projectiles are fired in sequence and can all hit the same target but deal 63% less damage

I believed it was the default behavior.

Even with that, the damage seems in favor of the big one.

For example, (5+6 = 11) Hungering Souls will deal less damage than a big one that deals x12 damage.

The difference is even more accentuated when the 11 Hungering Souls pop only 30% of the time, which means 11 * 0.3 = x3.3 damage.

So even if you increase damage x2 with descent into madness, it deals 11 * 2 * 0.3 = 6.6 (Which I rounded to 6 previously).

Moreover, Curse of Perseverance is a Two-Handed Staff which prevent the usage of any Off-Hand Catalyst like Chronicle of the Damned.

Using a Off-Hand Catalyst, the big Hungering Soul is even more powerful, and using a Two Handed Staff, so no catalyst, the multiple Hungering Souls is prevented from using an additional source of damage, as there is no special bonus on the staff that would make a difference.

Summary:

1. The 30% chance to cast with Death Seal is the main source of damage difference.
   100% is balanced. 75% on average is weaker, but still acceptable.
2. The two Handed staff need additional power to compensate the lack of catalyst like Chronicle of the Damned

[Llama8]

@DenisTRUFFAUT

I do agree that Fire support is more rare.

It is in Lich, but fire has more unique support in general.

@DenisTRUFFAUT

I believed it was the default behavior.

No, it never shotgunned before that unique was released.