ya, plus the good old Monty python crew doing the cockney accent is great. Luxury, Paradise great responses to the level of drudgery in their living conditions.
Even then it had its charm and people enjoyed trying different builds through those acts to see what could survive. I caught the ass end of beta, and decided to let them develop more and I got caught up in some other games for a while.
Come to think of it, specifically it was a browser based mmo called City of Steam that I was really into at that time. It was just coming out of a beta as well with an amazing concept of a game. They sold out to R2 squared publishing and changed the whole model to p2w and it sunk the game completely.
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Alright, so there’s a lot to unpack here. Before I get to that, I generally agree with some of the sentiment here, but in cases that’s the problem, and in other cases I will obviously disagree.
The fact that it’s called endgame is in no way actually related to the form and function of that content. It’s simply called so because it’s the only reusable content when you finish the story and happens to be placed at the end in most games. However, there’s no real reason this can’t be made available at any point, including the beginning. I see many people fall into this fallacy of “It’s named X so that’s what it has to be!” D3’s Adventure mode is arguably its endgame, but as anyone who has played it for awhile knows, even that mode has its own “endgame.” Ultimately, the term is highly subjective and arbitrary in some sense.
To the first, these games’ stories are completely irrelevant and arbitrary to a lot of people who enjoy the genre. This is generally because of two primary factors: They are poorly delivered and/or they are unoriginal / too derivative. In my opinion, even a mediocre story can go a long way if delivered well, but in the case of LE’s story, it’s the opposite. The way it’s currently delivered means the quality of the story is irrelevant–it will just be skipped through.
To the second, this is part of the point I was making earlier. Perhaps games should forego the story and save the time/resources on a feature that goes so unappreciated (and sometimes even unwanted). This is why I said I would feel bad for the devs who put so much time and effort into this feature. It’s not to disrespect them, but it is the reality. I’m sure you’ve heard the memes, “Nobody plays ARPGs/MMOs for story.” That’s largely based in truth. Obviously there are some people that do, but it seems they are definitely in the minority. From a cost/benefit standpoint, the story seems hard to justify. It really does feel like most games do it out of a sense of obligation rather than having something they actually want to say with it, especially among indie devs.
Bonus:
The actual beauty of this model is that instead of a forced march through a tedious campaign people don’t want to repeat, you have the freedom to add bits of lore and story later if the game does well. Think Elder Scrolls or Fallout for this type of asymmetric story telling.
Nobody is saying you can’t have an aesthetic. That’s not the same as opting out of the grind of a long story. Please don’t conflate the two.
We have seen some games do this to an extent already. PvP shooters in particular. Look at COD, CounterStrike, and Battlefield, the rise of arena and battle royale shooters. It’s perfectly evident. I might be stretching the definition of MMO here, but for a long time Warframe didn’t have much in the way of story either. It’s the game’s aesthetic and gameplay that hooked people. You can find plenty of indie games where story is minimal or non-existent and people enjoy them plenty.
In fact, if you recall some years back, there was some controversy about COD devs wanting to skip including a campaign in favor of just developing around the multiplayer. The people who liked the MP saw the wisdom and benefits to this while the people don’t play the MP just wanted the campaign. That was a community divided, hah! You can see what the devs had in mind, though. They were ahead of their time on that. The MP side of the game was the majority of their playerbase, and the long-term portion of it.
I don’t see that change being that prevalent. It would be great for certain kinds of players, but there will still be demand for more story-driven games. What I hope to see is that it cuts out this half-ass model we currently have now–the kind where stories are added because “These games have to have a story,” not because, “We have this great story to share!” I want to see the games that care about gameplay first focus on that first. The games that have a great story to share will step up and do everything possible to deliver it in the most compelling way possible.
I see your point about how people will compare game modes in that way. They already do it in PoE. I never really got involved with those kinds of debate or had interest in that way of thinking. I just want fun content to run. 
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I disagree with you. There are plenty of games without campaigns that do really well. League of legends, Counterstrike, hearthstone (they sometimes have dlc campaigns with certain leagues though as an extra) and many more games which iam to lazy to name. You get the point.
Well loving good campaigns myself in games like the witcher 3 and sorry guys (i even like the diablo 3 story 
) i disagree with you that the story development is a waste for EHG. The first and second time i loved playing the campaign. The third time i was like yeah yeah i know this now, i just want to tinker around with my knew character in endgame… get me there already. That sounds like a waste of time to me, not because the campaign is not good but because i saw it enough times before.
Its almost identical with movies for me. I watched Lord of the rings 9/10 times. Then i dont want to watch it for a while and after a while i appreciate everything even more.
I really dont understand how people can do campaigns 1000 times without getting bored. Thats okay btw, if thats what they like… i just dont like that. Can i? Does that make me knowing the genre better then a lot of great studios in the genre who didnt allowed skipping the story? No. I do think however its an uninspiring approach, just like walking from point A to B for a few miles just to hand over a letter to an NPC
In my opinion companies tend to look first to the most popular things and take notes. That method worked so they copied it and made their own twist. The sad part about this is that the genre stagnates if everybodys just copy paste this. The world and the genre is changing + the type of players so why should the genre stay exactly the same with the long campaign etc? Now there is endgame so why is the campaign still there? I like it being there but i think these are great topics to think about. There shouldnt be an campaign just because people are used to it like you said you are. You tend to like so then its fine.
Iam used to it aswell but iam tired of it and stopped leveling more then a few characters. Iam gaming because i want to have fun. Leveling 50 times its not fun for me and not an inspring way of playing a game with so many interesting things in endgame.
Diablo had a story but in that time it was unusual to progress your character as a looter grinder/hack and slash. Because they tried something else they accidentally made a complete new genre. If they said back then hey guys, the popular games are doing this, lets do the same thing this genre might have not excisted. Iam respecting your opinion on loving playing the campaign, i just agree with leaving things as it is and the part you said about; Hey guys why is every game using this method. I think thats a great question.
Why the heck are they still using this 
Its uninspiring. But hey thats my opinion.
I loved slay the spire because FINALLY somebody tried something different and nailed it.
I think in this type of genre the campaign is different than it used to be anyway.
There used to be no real endgame, thats one big difference.
Nowadays games like this offer so much in endgame (which they should to keep the game interesting) that it became more popular for a lot of people than the actual story.
People are asking not to having to play a campaign for 50 times. I think EHG gets enough respect and validation by then dont they?
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I think there should be a clarification of definitions. Story and Campaign seem to be getting used synonymously when they are different. While campaigns usually have a story aspect, a games story does not necessitate a campaign. To me, a game campaign is linear like reading a book. There is a definitive end point and only one way to get there. I would prefer a more open world, exploration with bits of story thrown around to discover. Players could piece together the stuff and find next steps. Instead of feeling pushed in a direction like a campaign does, you feel compelled (in a good way) to discover the next step. Just like an MMO, you know you have ventured somewhere you aren’t supposed to be if the monsters vastly out-level you or you just get crushed by trash mobs. 
I love the idea of wandering outside of town and stumbling across some old crumbled building. Finding an old engraving mentioning some other place of interest. It intrigues you enough to go see if it still stands. It isn’t forced story, but it is done in a way that you WANT to check it out.
I am actually REALLY excited for Diablo 4 as it looks to be going that way.
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But what would a campaign be without a story? Is each monolith (ignoring the quest echoes, since they do tell a story) a campaign because you move through a number of zones killing mobs?
Iam hoping Diablo 4 will nail it but iam scared they wont. I lost faith in the new Blizzard so i rather keep my expectations low and be suprised hopefully by how good it is.
IMHO you can’t compare (competitive) pvp games with an aRPG.
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I specifically said campaigns usually have a story.
Within the context of an aRPG;
All campaigns are a story.
Not all stories are a campaign.
The exceptions would be the other uses of the word campaign. Like a military campaign. I guess it is technically a story, but it is just a different usage. I guess in WoW, battlegrounds could be considered sort of military campaigns. Maybe similar to MOBA type games like Dota and LoL.
Why? In endgame they focus on totally different things then the campaign. Its not like there is much storytelling etc. Its hacking and slashing mobs, getting better loot and improving your character in the hopes of killing that big boss. You actually dont need a campaign for endgame in my opinion. Endgame is more similar to games like League of legends in my opinion then the campaign in some aspects. And iam not even talking about arena.
(iam not saying they should remove the campaign btw, iam just stating that endgame is so different that it could exist without the campaign).
Tell me why is the campaign needed?
Please dont say to learn the game, they could have made a tutorial of 15 min to do that.
just wanted to add my thoughts to the comparison of LE to games like CSGO or other PvP games. they focus on completely diffrent aspects of gaming.
IMO a good aRPG has a campaign that tells the story of the world, introduces enemys/ npcs and gives the character a purpose in that world. in every arpg ive played i followed the story on every first playthrough, becouse i like to explore the lore of the game. the fact that you and others don’t care, doesn’t mean that all don’t care.
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I agree with this. I like knowing why things are the way they are in the game, or the backstory of specific tribes of monsters. I really like the Osprix in LE. I don’t know how successful LE is with getting very deep into the lore of things like that though. It just goes to reiterate the lack of usefulness in replaying the story though. Once you know the lore and story that is given, what’s the purpose of doing it again? There is no new knowledge to gain.
Maybe this could be some future storyline growth. Each class gets different lore about the world due to their connections or trustworthiness with certain NPC’s. This would make it cool to play through the campaign at least once on each different class.
I never said i dont care about the story. That is the problem on those threads.
The point i and others are trying to make is that we dont like having to do the story 50 times just to get to endgame.
So saying that i dont like to have a story is just not true.
I love getting to know the world aswell so stop saying i want to remove the story or not having it. I just disagree with guys liking doing it everytime even despite having 4 characters already for example…
How many times do i have to say I LOVED THE STORY I JUST DONT LOVE HAVING TO DO IT 102002102021 times before i can get a normal discussion on it?
Just like pizza I LOVE PIZZA just not everyday. It stays special that way.
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i’m not strictly against an alternate levelling system, but i see why such a feature is not priority to EHG atm, and i like to see a better and more fleshed out storytelling in the campaign.
ok i see, yeah it’s getting confusing in such big threads…
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This is only true superficially. The core argument boils down to a Gameplay First mentality, and this can be applied to any genre. The reasons I particularly dislike the forced march campaign style of story-telling in this genre have already been laid out fairly clearly. One point I could elaborate on is that the delivery aspect of the story almost always fails to synergize with the gameplay of the genre. In the case of LE in particular, it relies on WoW-style questing to do most of it. I loathe this particular style because it represent an interruption in both gameplay and story-telling to do chores. Not only is this the most boring possible approach, but it’s the one with the highest probability that players will ignore the story.
If a game wants to tell a story, the gameplay and delivery must be married. I look to NieR: Automota as one of the best examples, despite also employing WoW-style questing for part of its gameplay (which I would rather it didn’t). The things it gets right:
- Music fits the mood
- NPCs conversate and narrate certain things. They don’t always just tell you how it is either. Sometimes they are just talking from their own perspective. Few games get this right.
- Interesting, moving, or exciting cut-scenes
- Gameplay elements match with what is going on with the story–and when they don’t, it’s on purpose.
- The story seeks to either ask important questions or make an important point without being preachy
The problem with LE and Wolcen (and plenty of other ARPGs) is that you can replace the walls of text (story) with random letters and the gameplay doesn’t significantly change. The two aren’t actually connected in any meaningful way. This is why I feel it’s such an unfortunate waste that so many games in this genre spend so much time and resources, out of a sense of obligation rather than purpose, on a feature that doesn’t really add much to the games.
Going back to NieR, if you experienced the beginning of Route C absent context, you wouldn’t understand the gameplay or the purpose for it being altered this way. You might think your game was broken. ARPGs do nothing like this.
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Yeah i get that 
its okay then. It happends to me aswell sometimes.
My biggest fear is that game companies are to afraid to try to do something different.
Diablo started as a turnbased game and ended up being a realtime game.
EHG seems to try out some different things so far (with the portals etc for example).
My hopes are that EHG will keep trying to do things out of the box rather then only following “the safe route, that works”. We have enough games like that trying to be an exact diablo clone.
Iam saying this because iam loving this game so far and i hope it will succeed. I also hope it will have more things that makes LE, LE as a unique game. To give one more example, despite Wolcens debacle xD, i loved the idea of the god forms that they had.
I am actually making a few arguments about stories/campaigns in these games, but I agree with you. I love good stories in games.
- This genre historically has done a shit job of presenting their stories, regardless of if the stories were good (most of the time they weren’t).
- It’s one thing to go through a story campaign on your first character to see everything. It’s another to have to do that for every build you want to play.
- If these games are to have stories, they better do them extremely well. Otherwise, they are better off saving the time/resources and skipping this feature.
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I am just going to go back and enjoy the game until the patch drops on Monday. This thread has turned into a huge plate of spaghetti. It will take EHG a bit to unwind it all.
I want to thank the rest of the players for contributing more because it shows we as a group want LE to succeed, in our own personal way, we are showing we are invested as well.
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Exactly those 3 points. I got nothing to add lol.
I do think however near the end SPOILER ALERT
I really loved the presentation of the Deer guy dying. Those were one of those moments i will actually remember as WOW well done guys. I followed the whole story and a lot of times i though, if the presentation was a bit better it might have been more interesting.
The part with the Deer dying was short but so powerfull with his spirit becoming one with the nature again. Just amazing.
There was also a moment… (and i know it sounds really nerdie) were you had to un lock handles and after that parts shifted. Those kind of parts did made me really love the campaign. I hope they will bring in more of those little big moments. It felt really immersive in my opinion.
Those few parts alone in LE felt more immersive then POE’s whole presentation of the story. I just wished they had more of those moments in LE.
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I want to aswell with a fresh character… but then i have to do the campaign again 
so iam not sure if i will or not.
But on a serious note, enjoy playing.
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