Leveling system that doesn't involve campaign

Feedback and Suggestions
165

I think you may be misunderstand the problem with the campaigns. It’s the combination of their mandatory nature and the static position (it’s the same every time you do it) at the core of why it’s boring. Then compound it with being needlessly long because devs feel like they need to have more “content,” a sentiment I truly understand the reasons behind (they are simply mistaken as to whether players will see it as content), and you have a real longevity issue for your game if it either lacks content people want to repeat or is gated too much by the campaign itself.

That’s why I suggest that there are really two best methods for approaching the problem, given that the devs already put the work into forcing the campaign into the game.

  1. Make the campaign more fun and interesting

  2. Make the campaign entirely optional in favor of other content

I heavily bias toward number 2. It’s not even close. The reason is that number 1 is more like a band-aid than a solution. Number 2 gives the devs considerably more freedom to explore other ideas and engage the players at a higher conceptual level.

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This is only a half truth.
The problem is that the “how you get there” will always look roughly the same because early game options are so limited (and boring!), which means the game doesn’t really begin until some point in the mid-game where the build’s identity really begins to come online.

It isn’t that they want to just start at max level with everything optimized. It’s that the first (roughly) one third to one half of a character’s leveling is pointless grind rather than interesting progress. This ties into my point above about why campaigns are boring as well.

The half that’s true about your conception of the issue is that people want to play with a variety of builds and experience the identity of those builds asap. Everything until then is empty, unsatisfying busy work.

Using PoE’s campaign as an example, and you can find this behavior in Grim Dawn and other ARPGs as well, what you see is that people work out “optimal” leveling builds to blast through the boring stuff as quickly as possible. The idea here is to minimize the chores aspect of the gameplay so they can get to the fun part. Yes, “fun” is subjective in this sense, but the issue is the same: early game is really dull in a lot of RPGs because this is the “accepted” method to represent progression.

Grim Dawn got around this to some degree by front-loading a lot of skill points and then tapering them off as you reached higher levels, meaning you got to get into your actual build fairly early on. They contrasted this by having the more interesting itemization options more available at higher ilvl, so you always had something to look forward to and enjoy in the moment.

It’s that last part that so many RPGs miss–not just ARPGs.

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166

I understand what you are saying. I was commenting on my approach when I was in charge of game design:

  1. Condense the number of areas/time it took to get to the end game.
  2. Add easter eggs to the current areas to offer up exploring to those who enjoy that.
  3. You can just run past mobs, not fight a single one, but what will you gain.
  4. The lack of multiplayer is another drawback, where PvP or duels or other methods of XP/ability gain can be achieved.
  5. I gave an example on how to make the campaign more fun and you stated I did not understand the problem?!?

The campaign when done correctly should be a foundation for how the scaling and playstyle will be worth the time investment. It sounds to me based on your own comment that you are inherently biased to instant gratification. That in itself is not wrong, but attempting to force it on an entire community is. The points you are making are completely valid, I understand them, I heard them 1000’s of times before.

The point when a build takes shape in LE is gaining your mastery at the end of time. I guess what you may want is a totally random time warp experience from picking up the first epoch shard? I attempting to draw out what you feel an alternate solution is.

167

i really wonder what you all learned in the campain after 1 million times…
Most things that i have learned were in endgame. In endgame i have most of my skills or all, then i know if i want to change more things or not.

In my opinion the campain is a waste of time after you did it a few times. Just like in any ARPG i have played. Just let me level differently or let me go to endgame so i can tinker even more builds and ideas instead of foring 5 hours of boredome.
Sorry but thats really how i feel about those re-doing campaigns.

I would have had 20 characters per class if i didnt had to go trough the campaign everytime. Not even kidding.
I just like the puzzle of tinkering builds and trying some unique non meta stuff.
I get EHG though, i mean every popular/great game in the genre does it. So why shouldnt they right? Anyways its there game so its up to them.

It just amazes and saddens me that anno 2021 this trend of not being able to level differently in this genre after multiple playtroughs.
It makes me feel like a bot sometimes.

168

“Let me finish off this nonsense” Wow if you keep inflating your ego it’s going to burst. I can’t believe you can type a sentence like “The problem is that they haven’t yet caught onto how frivolous stories/campaigns actually are to the genre in general.” and be dead serious. Climb down off that pedestal your put yourself on and maybe consider the fact that you aren’t some all-knowing game development savant that’s perfectly in tune with everybody who has ever touched an ARPG. Maybe the reason they haven’t “caught on” yet is because your opinions aren’t shared by the majority of people who are playing ARPGs? I know that’s a hard pill to swallow, what with you thinking that you’re above the people who have been developing these games for decades.

What the hell are you talking about? I never said that combat in these games is empty and hollow, I said that a game like Diablo 3, because of the decisions the developers made, has mechanics that make the game feel one-dimensional, empty, and hollow. I said that these games (ARPGs) are not meant to just be mindless, low-interactivity experiences. I never once said that I disdain the gameplay loop of killing monsters and collecting loot, in fact, I said “You have to enjoy the gameplay loop of killing monsters and picking up loot, otherwise what’s the point of playing?”. I love the gameplay of ARPGs, that’s why I’m here. If I didn’t love the gameplay I’d probably be asking for brainless shortcuts through content, just like you.

169

This is a strawman and rather offensive for those of us who would like another option to the campaign. After playing through the campaign 20 times, it is what has become the brainless, slow content. It was fun the first 5 times. Now its just a chore that makes me not want to play or try new characters.

I would argue it would take much more money, time, and development to make the campaign interesting for many replays. The first thing they could do to fix the monotonous nature of it would be to change the campaign story for each different class just like an MMO does. That would take FAR more resources than just opening up an already designed end-game system to earlier level characters.

Even PoE has jumped on board. Some people skip the story and start leveling delve as soon as they can. Anyone who has played PoE knows that the campaign is just a pointless hurdle now. Players have found the most efficient ways to spend as little time in the campaign as possible, even to the point of logging out and back in to save time.

It’s probably going to get worse too as they presumably still have plans to add another chapter to the campaign.

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170

Hey everyone! We definitely hear and sympathize with the want for alternative leveling systems. While I don’t have anything to share on this, I do see that this thread is quite popular so after the patch releasing on Monday I’ll have the game design team revisit this thread and discuss. We appreciate the feedback and suggestions so keep them coming

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171

Removing the campaign is a bad decision and the people that truly want it removed are the people who play a different game daily and dont really care about the games long term standing, they are just impatient and want it NOW so they can quit even faster. If time is an issue anyway then aRPGs arent a good game for you anyway

I hate leveling in the campaigns but skipping right to end game is just completely stupid, I only really dislike it due to usually going from a strong character to a level 1, movement speed is atrocious.
Playing from ‘end game’ gives no progression or care for your character, I always assumed the devs added lengthy campaigns to test peoples loyalty to the game itself. The reward for beating the story is the end game, you already have access to monoliths/arena from level 23 anyway…what more do you want?

These are grinding, progression games. they arent platformers where you just choose what level you play. “today ill fight Rahyeh cos I deserve it”…well you dont actually not on a new character anyway without earning it

I hope the devs never cave and add in ‘adventure mode’ like in D3 - if they DO add it in I dont really care thats their decision but I dont think its a good idea longterm

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172

Thank you for giving solid feedback when you can. Your team has limited resources and for you to take the time to acknowledge what is being discussed. It shows that you and your team have the right mindset for long-term success.

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173

Just sit right back and I’ll tell a tale, a tale of a changing industry. For a long time the experience I had with gaming was incredibly different than today. And that isn’t even taking into account graphics or game types. Before making game guides and boss guides was even possible, nobody had easy access to this information, if any at all was available. This meant that games held a lot more mystery and engagement. You actually had to make it to the end boss to even see it with your own eyes.

There was no video that showed you what to expect and had you prepared already before you even did it yourself. That is part of what made games fun and engaging. Now you can just watch how the whole game is played and how to make your build before you even step foot in the game. You already vicariously played it before even experiencing it. That in itself is going to dim the experience you have and make you feel like you’ve already done it. With that being gutted from the spirit of gaming today, it has put the industry in a position to have to rediscover what makes a game fun now. It’s extremely difficult and games are struggling to put out content at the rate we no-lifers can consume it and scream for more. It’s also ok to take a break after marathon running 10 characters back to back. You should expect to feel bored and burned out at that point. It’s ok lol.

I’m all for more options for othes to play as they wish. I also know this is a small team that has a vision for a game that they have a passion to build. The challenge of games for me has always been to see if I can overcome whatever that vision is they set into a game. My goal has never been to try and change it so it fits to how I want the game.

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174

Did you really see someone asking to remove the campaign? I agree, that would be a bad decision. Very bad.
My point of view is that I would like to have two ways to level, not one. The campaign and an alternate system. Because I did the campaign around thirty times in three months and I’m getting a bit (and temporarily) bored of it. But I don’t want the campaign to disappear, I want to be able to play it sometimes!
And I don’t want a fast way to level. Currently I do the campaign in 6-8 hours. If there is an alternate way to level, I’d like it to take 6-8 hours. :wink:

2 Likes
175

I’d prefer the campaign to be either optional or short as possible to favor other content. Specifically, what I want most out of an ARPG is a variety of endgame activities–and honestly, without a campaign, these would just be “activities” and a lot more ideal.

I’ll criticize D3 for a lot of things, but I give credit where credit’s due: the Adventure mode had a very strong foundation for a selection of content and gameplay loops. Bounties, Rifts, G. Rifts, all good things. The problem for D3 is it didn’t go far enough, it didn’t add more.

Grim Dawn had super bosses and endless arenas, also both good things.

Torchlight 2 Synergies had unique bosses with specific themes and target farmed loot. This is great.

While I find the mapping in PoE to get really mundane, Heist and Delve offer alternative modes of play. I just wish they weren’t arbitrarily gated by resources designed to force back into that horrid Atlas.

That said, Atlas has its place in that game too. I would still want it in the game–just not mandatory.

Sacred 2 has an open world that scales to you (if you’re above the default level for an area) with repeatable and target farmable bosses. This is good.

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Basically, the more things like these a game can offer instead of forcing every new character through the same boring chore of X many hours of walking simulator, the better that game is. The core problem with campaigns/story modes is that they don’t stand up to repetitive play very well, are much more expensive and time consuming to create (because it needs the gameplay AND the story side), and locking build/progression rewards behind it is actually a negative because it makes it feel like even more of a chore rather than somehow actually rewarding.

Having said all that, there are bunch of ways to try to make campaigns more fun/interesting, but ultimately it is just a band-aid fix for what is, at its foundation, a very dull aspect of the genre.

1 Like
176

Once upon a time, there was a set of game designer lexicons that detailed the highest-rated UX based on three key performance indicators.

  1. Time investment
  2. Progression of character, room to grow
  3. Visual, story, and engagement

When you succeed on those three points you have a winning game.

The part where I think most up for discussion is point #2. Progression your first time through should be no more than 50% of the total character life span. Not everyone wants to go to 100, so what becomes the maximum floor level, most say 80-85 based on level 100 games like this and PoE. Then the 50% line becomes around 40-45. Once you have completed the story at least in LE, once you hit the end of time, I have hit it as low as 21. That leaves at least 75% remaining room for the character to grow in any way the game allows, or players want to choose.

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177

I go along with your short campaign comment, optional is not optimal due to the variety of player tastes and the game designers have to cast as wide as net as possible to catch the largest amount of fish. You may be one of the fish that slipped through the net and got away.

I do not think you should abandon the hope that the campaign does in time scale back and give you that freedom of choice you are looking for. I am asking do you think the alternate leveling system should start at the first epoch shard you find? That and the idols are the primary goals in the campaign to achieve, IMO.

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178

I really appreciate this comment, despite disagreeing with certain pieces of it. I too grew up in the gaming era you refer to. I’ve been playing games nearly 35 years. The people trying to straw-man me with overloaded buzz language like “instant gratification,” “entitlement,” or any other underhanded derogatory ad hominem don’t seem to understand the real point here. Since the exploration of how games work is basically dead in this era, the challenge for devs is to find sustainable content that players will enjoy over time despite knowing it inside and out. Campaigns simply don’t offer this. This is why alternative progression and interested endgame content is so important to this genre.

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179

We get that. With all of the experience you say you have you have yet to ID in the game WHERE to put the alternate content. WHEN does it begin.

I am not attempting to belittle you, but the tone you are using elicits the “buzz” language. You are complaining but offering no solution only more text splattered on this forum wall.

180

While I have nothing against people who prefer to powerlevel in these kinds of game (enjoy it how you want), this is something I appreciated about Sacred 2. Its open world had an intended story and quest chain for you to follow, but there wasn’t really anything compelling you to unless some boss you wanted to farm was in an area locked behind that progression. If the scope of your build could be achieved before entering Zaz, you could just level and farm in whatever place you enjoyed most. Granted, most people still would push their progression to have access to everything, but with a world like that, at least there’s a bit more reason to.

Similarly, a person’s first character on a new season in D3 could just level through Adventure mode. It’s not as fast as being powerleveled or having your own powerleveling gear, but it’s not quite as long–and considerably less boring!–than doing the story mode again. However, it’s worth pointing out that people can fairly say that game doesn’t start until level cap anyway due to the design of itemization and builds in the first place. This game doesn’t operate that way, so I’m not looking for something that just levels fast. I just don’t want to slog through the story mode on every… single… new… build… I… want… to… try…

This problem is the main reason it’s hard to take advantage of PoE’s fantastic build variety. Slogging through the campaign burns me out by my 3rd or 4th character in a league and I just kind of fade away from the game for awhile as a result, even if I like that league. It’s an unfortunate paradox that a game which boasts so much build variety and depth makes players feel like they should only play one build. I hope this game doesn’t end up like that too.

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181

If it’s truly an alternative, I’d put it in the first town. However, putting it at EoT after you get your Mastery would be fair too.

Edit:
I would put mutually exclusive ways to get the extra idols and passive points in that alternative mode as well in a corresponding fashion. This is just to ensure the integrity of both modes and the character builds themselves.

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182

To an extent, the areas had a max level as well.

@NukedGypsy Quite a lot of us grew up during the 80s and have seen the gaming industry evolve & grow. A lot of it has changed for the better, some of it has changed for the worse (predatory microtransactions) & some things are both good and bad (F2P, because it allows many more people to try a game but it often leads to the game costing a player more due to being nickle & dimmed all over the shop).

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183

I think the level restrictions on items make people want to skip the campaign as well. Especially in PoE, since that is a popular comparison. Most of the valuable and sought after items have an item level of at least 74 and above to the coveted I84 and I85 items. This makes you feel the pressure of getting to those levels even greater because you know nobody wants to buy any rare under those item levels. This to me feels like shooting themselves in the foot, by making all the other items feel useless in comparison. We’re all about the loot in these games. We go where the loot is.

Maybe a solution could be as you are doing quests in the story, there is a very small percentage that some cool mtx can drop only while on the story quests. Once you are done, you no longer have that chance. So at least every time you level a character there is some feeling of excitement that while you are doing this that something really badass could drop before it is over. And to prevent abusing the drop chances by never finishing the quest, the chance can drop to 0 after you find x amounts of mtx like 1 or 2.

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184

I agree with your premise, but the solution doesn’t really fix the problem, imo. Also, I’d be a bit sketchy about putting MTX in the mix like that. It risks two things that would sorely undermine the integrity of the game.

  1. It makes it feel like those cheap east Asia MMOs–the overly grindy, “f2p” (p2w) shovelware kind.
  2. It puts the company in an uncomfortable position of having to resist the moral hazard of such features. It wouldn’t take much to push it over to tencent levels of MTX spam and cash-grabby nonsense locked behind paywalls.

That’s okay, though, because there are many other avenues of approach worth exploring. If we agree on the premise in the first place, we can aim at the solution together.