As I have not figured out a good build to push for max level I’m just wondering how long it takes. Is it like Poe? Or diablo 2? Or shorter? I will make a argument for something like Poe. Doable but will take some time. If it’s too fast I feel like you get done with your hero too fast and it feels like a bit of a waste. You always want to be striving for that last level. And if it’s too long like diablo 2 you just stop trying. But something like the Poe progression is just the right amount of grind.
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For a casual player, far faster than PoE as there’s no exp penalty on death. So long as your build can reliably get to wave 50+ in arena, you can grind to 100 in less than a week.
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Is this set in stone? I feel like that is way too quick.
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It will probably be slowed down by release
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We’ll be looking at the XP curve closer to release for sure.
We do also intend to implement a death penalty.
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Awesome thanks for the info
that is a shame.
I despise death penalties that stall the game out and the experience curve currently seems fine to me. A penalty that resets progress will simply narrow creativity in builds as it did in poe. You either play something over powered , or you simply play safe and never challenge yourself.
Losing the run for arena and losing your progress in monolith already feel like harsh and fair treatments for death.
Companies who make reaching max level a chore simply lack the imagination to make content for max level. Please do not become another GGG, and remember to keep the game fun.
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It seems each PoE league it gets faster and faster seeing people get to 100…Most games in this genre have some type of death penalty. I dont believe it means the company has any lack of imagination at all. It should always be a challenge to get to max level.
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@Nadakuu once you reach max level what exactly are you trying to reach next? Nothing. This is the problem with most new games. Having a challenge to get to the final level adds a level of progress that no end game system has ever replaced.
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sure , have you ever tried to get to 100 in poe without being supported by many players?
It takes 1000s of maps. one death easily resets 100s of maps in the later levels. So it enforces boring game play and makes a high percentage of players quit the game entirely.
Point being , the best games are steering away from the old adage of their must be an experience penalty to death. I am just hoping if they do put a penalty it has a cap , so that you can eventually progress when meeting a wall from challenging yourself. No one likes to feel like their time is being wasted.
once you reach max level , you can still improve gear. After that there could be content designed for max level as a challenge. Otherwise you find a new character build to try out.
This is a cheap tactic used in games to keep moving the goal post for artificial “character” development.
The best part of this game is not having to be restrained to playing one way or another as others in the genre force on you.
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You hit the hammer on the head. You go to the next hero because even with endgame systems it still gets dull and boring when you are not reaching for the next level. And that hero is never to be played again. Instead of having multiple heroes going at different levels all that are still fun to play.
I have about 7-8k hours in diablo 2. And there was really only 1 thing you could do in that game. Boss runs. Why keep playing? Loot and levels. It comes back to that time and time again.
They are not redesigning the wheel here. The foundation is set.
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Reaching max level is not a determing factor for most people to stop playing a character. The driving force behind it is when they feel they are just spinning their wheels. Most people are happier to reroll a new character when they had a plesant experience than a negative one where time was simply wasted.
Death penalties often cause this negative association with the game and rarely do they punish players who are already playing the “meta” and easily reaching the top levels quickly.
IT is a bad mechanic to include in the game as it never punishes all players fairly.
It remained the number one reason i could not get people to play with me in POE or remain playing the game for more then a few weeks.
Loot and boss runs are what ARPGS are about. Pushing your character to reach ever new heights. Trying new things and making them work without the fear of having all progress loss for trying these new things.
I too had thousands of hours in D2 , along with thousands in POE (profile is open to see there). I never hated making new characters or going back to play an older one - even when “maxed level”.
Why build on a foundation which is based on a flawed premise ?
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I’m not even talking about death penalties lol. I guess I am going to agree to disagree. We are obviously on way different tracks here
I would rather see some sort of survival bonus than a death penalty. A little more carrot and less stick. However, if a death penalty is implemented in a reasonable way (meaning in a way that doesn’t wipe out days of an average player’s game time in a single death) I’ve got no issue with it.
Please don’t design the death penalty around min-maxers, nolifers, or 1%ers. I don’t mind level 100 being a bit of a grind, but if my EXP bar never gets off the starting line once I hit, for example, level 95, because of the occasional death…that’s too severe.
Having to either play perfectly or constantly steamroll easy content in order to progress at the top end is silly - players should be encouraged to challenge themselves, and that needs to account for occasional deaths.
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Agree with this wholeheartedly. I really like the current situation. Shaving off an arbitrary amount of XP always seemed to me like horribly inorganic design.
Resetting Monolith/Arena progress is tangible and recoverable and encourages players to push themselves, rather than playing it safe. It’s a great system; I have no idea why you’d want to change it.
Edit: I should say @Sarno hasn’t actually said the death penalty will involve XP loss and I’m possibly reading too much into things.
I could support a death penalty that involves a decrease in power (damage/protections, possibly even magic find), but I’d have to see how it was implemented.
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Hopefully the penalty is something like gold and not exp. I would much rather lose a resource I can get back than time I can’t.
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Even if you personally like the grind of reaching, say, level 100 in POE, there are some universal truths to consider here:
1 - Repetition does not equal complexity, strategy or growth
2 - Some aspects of life are a zero sum game (I can only gain if you lose)
3 - The status quo is a powerful force for limiting our imaginations, and we will resist changes to it even if those changes are unambiguously better for all.
I choose to interpret these in support of Nadaku, who I think is spot on here. Death penalties and ridiculous grinds simply limit the creative options available.
For point 1 (repetition) - it is just too simple to give players an option. For the players who love to grind, and push through their pain to reach an achievement, there is currently a hardcore option, why not add a death penalty box that can be ticked? The rest of us lose nothing if the devs decide we can test out endgame content, reach 100, try a new build, etc. with less grinding. Everybody wins.
For point 2 (Zero sum game) - Consider this quote from GGG:
“If we make the game more rewarding, people will quit faster, even though they feel they’re having a better time,” says Rogers. “Some of the leagues that have been the best in terms of player reception have also been some of the worst in terms of retention for our company, so we’ve got to be careful. It’s a tension, but ultimately, we’re always trying to make people have the best time.”
This is an example of a zero sum game where the company takes what they want, at the expense of the players. While this is understandable, it is not inevitable!
Point 3 (status quo) - Is where, if we challenge the status quo, things get really exciting. Because where is it written that the game developers must always aim for supernormal profits, or massive expansion, or high player screen time at all costs?
In fact, it may not be a zero sum game at all. It may end up being more profitable for Last Epoch to spend all their time on new and creative options for players, rather than new and creative ways to limit players, or make them jump through arbitrary hoops.
It is also an option for Last Epoch to aim for enjoyment rather than retention, even if this does make them less profitable. Plenty of companies are choosing less profits in favour of some social/environmental benefit.
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Is the resetting of your monolith/arena progress not a sufficient penalty? Assuming the end game isn’t going to be too different on release.
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Agree with Grimlock9999.
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