Legacy is a Dumping Ground

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21

Ok… why should I spend the gold in the current sinks? :slight_smile: What’s my reward?

Which directly leads into:

So, upon which amount of ‘gold cost per item’ does Arbor become less viable then the Bazaar? After all it’s expensive to scale your reward in Arbor.
5 mil per item? 10? 100?
I would say if I need to get 100+ mil for an item then Arbor becomes worthless by design. The outcomes from Arbor will - with high luck - bring me commonly 5-10 mil per maxed run, costing plenty more then that though, hence they’re always a net-loss for someone working in a economy.

Arbor would need to be 10-50 times more valuable to even achieve the inkling of people using it reliably as a sink.

But… then no items exist, so you need to craft :stuck_out_tongue:
It’s combined. No items means you need to craft, if you don’t wanna craft you pay for the item so someone else can craft.

It’s always ‘someone crafts since their item isn’t available or too expensive’.
LE doesn’t have that, there is no resource fluidity.

And you don’t see it as an issue of it being dysfunctional by itself? That should be a warning bell going off right away after all :stuck_out_tongue:
But even if it’s dysfunctional… it can be made to work at least in Cycle, you just have to ‘push’ the inflation back as much as possible until it doesn’t reach the cap anymore for some reason. But it would still be inherently broken… which is bad.

So… EHG needs to fix that.

And that’s the point. PoE was specifically designed this way instead of gold for this exact reason.
They saw the problem, the tackled it, they solved it.
LE’s system is regression to D2 times, after massive in-depth dev-talks, interviews and even a large Manifesto describing the exact reason why.

It’s such a gross oversight from EHG it’s baffling, the core concept of their competitor’s market not being taken into consideration? After saying they wanna do a system which pleases both trading people and non-trading people? It would be funny if it weren’t so baffling and sad.

And even when exchanging it with glyphs it wouldn’t work… since the bottleneck in LE are item bases and not crafting material.
In PoE bases have a very low value, with few exceptions… since you can actively change them to the desired outcome (with few exceptions). The currency though is needed in the amount of hundreds to thousands per try… often vastly more even.
My personal record is using around 40000 Alterations to get one specific outcome I wanted.
In LE I wouldn’t even remotely be able to replicate such a massive resource sink through crafting.

So no, the basic premise doesn’t uphold between them, even a chance to crafting materials in LE wouldn’t change the issue in the least.

Exactly :slight_smile: Preservation of value.
But if your items have no value you don’t preserve it now, do you? The effect gets vastly lowered when you can’t obtain the ‘next step’ no matter how hard you put effort into it since it simply doesn’t exist.
There’s maybe less then 100 characters which are ‘nigh perfect’ in PoE, with vast investment from those players… but they exist… and can exist. In LE there’s ‘0’ and won’t be more then ‘0’ at any given time. That’s quite the bummer.

Not to speak that the gifting option for CoF is there and underlies the same issues though, with vast time investment to even be able to ‘trade’ a single item between people, hence reaching a ‘ceiling’ even quicker then MG does, by magnitudes despite the ceiling being actually higher then what MG reliably provides for base items… for uniques (especially boss uniques) MG is still a bit better… for the 0,1% which are there at the right moment to afford the next 1,2 bil item should someone be lazy enough to not invest the time to trade it through the party function with barter methods.

Favor would work definitely. That’s a inherently used up currency and hence a viable option.

That’s not possible.
As said, 10-50 times, somewhere in there. Not feasable.
That would ruin CoF, or CoF would need to be exempt from bonuses there.

They are very common, I’m surprised you haven’t seen it.
To be fair they’re also commonly handled better by the devs, likely a experience issue from EHG, will change in the future, those issues will happen again after all.
They just become so visible because the market automates to a fail-state as a default, hence any speed-up for that causes it to happen nigh immediately.

22

They do exist. Almost everything you craft has the potential to simply drop or be achieved by one of the many mechanics.

It’s not different from EHG wanting to use Arbor as a gold sink. They just haven’t managed to make it appealing so far for players.
But if you do change that aspect of it, and players start sinking gold into Arbor reliably, then the issue is fixed and you have funcionally the same thing for both markets.

There isn’t an issue with the way MG is designed (in this aspect). There is an issue that the gold sink isn’t made appealing. That’s all. Fix that and both markets (PoE and LE) function similarly.

Why would it ruin CoF? You’re the one always saying that CoF is so far behind that they need something extra. So how is giving the exact same thing for both factions make CoF so far ahead that it’s ruined?

There are always ways to do it. You always prefer the nuclear option of throwing away all the previous time and effort and start over when often you can make things work as they are with smaller tweaks.

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23

I know, I’m just not sure how that could be achieved without breaking it.

Like gold?

Exactly. Apparently “lots of items” is insufficient.

Not really, you’re pointing at the wrong thing (standard being a dumping ground) as being dysfunctional while also saying that the right thing is the problem (insufficient effective gold sinks to make gold as currency useful/effective/stable/whatever).

To an extent, yes, though that would make the Lightless Arbour more useful surely, since it supplies more item bases to craft with?

24

I could see lightless arbor being great if it was made a much stronger version of nemesis you could scale. Make a lightless egg.

Every 1M gold gurantees 1 new lp, or a tier 7 affix of your choosing. And it can stack infinitely

That way you know a perfect item legendery costs:

Base: 1M per implicit perfect. Lets say its Ominis. It has 2 ranges so 2M +4M for base exalted for all tier 7s. That puts our legendary item at 6M.

Now we know each items relative costs. MG prices and favor costs adjusted.

25

You can make LA give you rare things that aren’t items but rather ways to items. For example, you can make LA dump a lot more RoA or Despairs. Or you can make it drop good bases more often so you still have to craft on them.

The only thing you have to ensure is that CoF doesn’t break and that shouldn’t be that hard, especially when CoF is currently quite behind MG in terms of BiS gear.

If you make it so that LA gives you, on average, more gold worth per trip than the gold you spend on it, then MG’s problem is solved, because you have constantly new items going in but gold is disappearing from the game so you have to refarm it.

26

LE or PoE?
Either way… good joke. More so for PoE, less so for LE, still funny.

It very… very clearly is.

A secondary mechanic rather then a intrinsic mechanical need is as different as it gets :stuck_out_tongue:

Huh? I think you’re talking about someone else, because I never said CoF is ‘behind’.
I actually stated that MG is ‘behind’ despite being ‘in front’ for quite a few situations.

Yes, lots of garbage is insufficient :slight_smile:

Yes, alleviates it.
I would say… maybe doubling or tripling the time until it breaks.
To ‘solve it’ we would need it to take such a long time that it isn’t remotely possible to happen in the lifespan of the game… and given power-creep to never happen as long as the game is alive.

I’m against band-aids but more for actual root-cause solutions. Band-aids suck and ruin games long-term.

Yes, and it would suck since it reduces the item ceiling by roughly a quadrillion in magnitude :stuck_out_tongue: Which is kinda a bit much.
Or said differently: We would see tens of thousands of perfected items per month, rather then ‘a handful’ per cycle which should be the absolute upper limit to allow extreme long-term players to have a reliable goal but also a reliable amount of potential playtime.

A ‘good base’ intrinsically has a T7 rare affix in LE.

It isn’t.
Less people in MG acquire even remotely the amount of gear-quality as any player playing CoF for the same amount of time.
Only people making profit from the market do so.
And to make profit someone else has to make a loss. That’s inherent to a market.

27

Yes, I can see that working. You buy a 0LP Ravenous Void (or Wings of Argentus or any other very high LPL item), spend 4m & you’ve got yourself a 4LP! Or 4x T7 affixes! If you want to edit your items, just play offline.

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28

I disagree. The only reason people were playing cycle in other games and then using them in legacy is that the content/ loot was gated to cycle… so you had to follow the play cycle, wait for cycle end, use cycle items in legacy path in order to get them.

Now, with the way things are, you get everything in legacy that you would get in cycle, so there’s no real reason to reroll a new character in cycle unless you’re going for MG.

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29

We’re clearly talking about BiS gear, since that’s the only thing that could ruin CoF. And for BiS you’ve always said that CoF is clearly far behind.

So? Why not make LA drop more of those? There is still a fail state included, since you still have to craft on it, meaning you might still not get what you want. You just increase the quantity so you eventually get it. How does that break anything?

Not if there isn’t a gold sink, which is the current case. So gold keeps increasing and eventually way more people get BiS gear in MG.
So in the current state, if you want a 1LP red ring with a good T7 affix on it, you have a much better chance to get it on MG than with CoF.

CoF is better for general purpose gearing. If you want to be able to gear up and get your build going, CoF is great. If you want specific rare items like that, MG will always be better.

So yeah, CoF is better for common gear all the way up to semi-rare stuff. But for really rare stuff, CoF is way behind.

Many people that play standard exclusively in PoE have the same access to those items, since they become available in the market once the league ends. They don’t need to actually play the league to get them.

Players in PoE play cycles for several reasons:
-Fresh start/economy
-Leaderboards
-Seasonal rewards
-Unbalanced mechanics (whichever is the league theme, before it gets watered down for core)
-FOMO, because there’s always the chance that the current league mechanic won’t make it to core, so you never get to try it out.

Yes, currently only the first 2 points apply to LE. Though that won’t always be the case, since cycle-exclusive stuff will eventually come to LE, once they’re done adding all the core stuff.

30

A ‘individual’ getting full BiS in CoF through the bank is more unlikely then someone in MG.
Getting a single BiS in CoF is magnitudes easier (if not for your character though) then in MG.

Just the whole game besides LA since that would mean hundreds of times better results then anywhere else in the game. That’s how vast the difference is.

Disparity is fine, disparity isn’t allowed to be too extreme though, neither in content nor in power level of characters.

Actually it is.
Since our limit is the dropped gear, so only a single person can get it out of 10000 at best. Which causes 9999 people to ‘loose out’ given they would have the resources available.

Which is the reason why we see items priced at gold cap, since supply/demand is so extreme in variance currently that the small amount of gold we can store can’t display it properly.

31

Your response doesn’t make any sense. Now you are asking me if I understand the difference between legit and illegit… You are the one arguing that it makes no difference and legacy was always doomed. So why even care? Easy for you to say.

I and others are arguing that there is a huge difference between legit and illegit. You may not like a mature economy but I don’t care as long as it is all, or at least primarily, legit. What % of the gold existing in legacy do you think was actually picked up by a human?

I don’t care about gold sinks, I care about people having infinite(or arbitrarily large) amounts of gold. It doesn’t bother me that people want sinks but it isn’t really the same conversation.

I have no problem with the normal process of cycle characters going to legacy. So don’t criticize me for something I am not saying.

Legacy has become a dumping ground of EHG’s mistakes; specifically with regard to exploits.

32

That will depend on the BiS item you want. If it’s an ultra rare one, it’s still way easier to get one in MG than in CoF. Like the aforementioned 1LP red ring with the best T7 affix for your build.

33

I expect it’s the vast majority. I expect that gold trades are actually somewhat easily flaggable, so those accounts are then banned and the gold deleted.

What most people don’t realize is that the current way RMT works in LE is actually only profitable for the RMTers. It’s not like in PoE where you simply give someone a bunch of stuff, which could actually be a legit thing. I know I’ve given plenty of great gear to friends and clan mates over the years.
But in LE it’s not that hard to track those transactions because they’re all gold based.

So I expect most of the farmed gold to be deleted, much like most of the gold from the exploits was.

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34

Yes, the one ‘you’ want.

I solely talked about obtaining ‘a’ item of the BiS category. CoF by design gets more good gear then MG, that’s the whole premise of it.
The chance for it to be for your personal character though is quite something different on the other hand, obviously it doesn’t hold true… but getting a 4 LP red ring is magnitudes easier for CoF then for MG. Likely the first person ever getting one will be CoF.

35

This is cope. Anyone who sold basically anything last cycle has vast gold way beyond what would be possible.

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36

Wow, that’s really how you think trade & economics work? For real? Not just some incendiary statement to get people riled up (we’ve all been there :innocent:) or that you thought sounded cool?

Yeah, that’s because you appeared to be conflating legit duplication of gear (Lightless Arbour) with exploits/bugs duping items. So yes, hence me asking if you understood the difference since the gold duping wasn’t legit.

I’m fine with a mature economy, I live in one after all. Mature economies are good 'cause you can know what to expect for pricing & they don’t vary wildly with time.

If you want to have a functional “mature” economy using gold as a currency, you should.

I don’t think I was, but ok.

Given the only exploits are the gold duping, yes. And that’s not going to help standard have a functional economy. Though EHG has said that they’ve removed the majority of the duped gold.

You sure about that? I sold stuff, I didn’t have billions of gold.

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37

Did they say that, or are you just assuming?

38

Considering that Mike has clearly said that most of the duped gold was removed and that “players vastly overestimate the amount of duped gold still in the game”, I don’t think that’s true.

Most of the stuff that was sold via the dupe was stuff still at low prices. So the regular amount of gold you would get, you just got it faster.
The people then trying to take advantage of this and trying to sell for hugely inflated prices likely saw their gold removed as well.

As a rule, I’ll tend to believe the devs on these things rather than a random internet user.

Actually, considering that this reset was the first time stuff from cycle AH moved to legacy AH (1.0 stuff wasn’t migrated), and that most of the gold was removed (as stated by Mike), not even that.

They said that. Mike has often said in his stream (because he’s often asked about it) that they want to eventually start doing cycle-exclusive content once they’re done adding core stuff. He even said they weren’t sure yet what that will be but they would like start with exclusive uniques or something like that.

39

We can go into how banks and the stock market are set up, because that’s the majority of modern economy.
Since 1971 my statement - sadly - holds true.
To not get into what could be counted as ‘politics’ though I won’t go further into it, look up what happened then and what the results are world-wide and why.

Which makes the de-facto situation actually worse, because if the market collapses within a cycle without the dupe issues… well… then that means that the market is worse off then expected even by me :stuck_out_tongue:

40

The market collapses mostly because players have the wrong perception of how it works and because of speculation. Much like real work markets.

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