People keep expecting the Developers to spend their lives working without getting paid a dime. You can tell everyone whose upset by Paid Classes or before the thought of paid expansions, don’t understand human responsibilities like paying bills, keeping food on the table.
I don’t disagree but the daily player count being what it is, I don’t think if even 100% of the 1500-2000 average players bought the most expensive supporter pack that it would be enough to counteract just the labour costs of the company.
It needs something to get people excited and interested in trying the game again for the current people who already own it, as well as the console customers. The dlc class might be that, the expansion might be that, or even season 4 and/or 5 might be that.
Maybe more MTX cosmetics couldn’t hurt, so long as they don’t burn out a bunch of resources making them. It’s the tough call where you want to be able to stay afloat on MTX but not seeing the sales creates an almost self fulfilling prophecy of MTX didn’t sell, don’t make more MTX because it won’t sell, when it could just be a quantity / quality / pricing issue.
There will be people who won’t spend anything past the box price, and it sounds super mean but the possibility of losing them as customers has been weighed and found to be an acceptable loss.
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Yeah, because their ‘supporter packs’ look like absolute ass.
If they would give the full value in points I would also have more banners. Like in PoE, where I have a boatload of them. Every league I enjoyed I bought one, MTX being good or not. Why? Cause I can use the points for stuff which I’m interested in otherwise sometime in the future.
Not the case with LE.
Yes, absolutely!
The same as with PoE.
I’m willing to open my wallet… and open it wide enough to ‘matter’ in your limited thought train there clearly. How so? Because as a long-term customer for them I gave them enough money to get a free PoE 2 access key even.
I wish to do the same with LE, but I won’t ‘donate’. I’ll be glad to support, but charity is a ‘no’.
See… and that’s why you’re failing entirely in a argument about monetization and business.
People actually told the developers ‘we wanna pay you more, provide us with more stuff we can pay for’ and they didn’t listen.
I mean… how much more should people be vocal about something a developer should’ve inherently done?
Are we supposed to donate for pure reasons or something?
Funnily enough, and in true EHG fashion. The forum is bugged and not all of my supporter badges show up.
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There’s issues with some people’s packs not showing.
That is kind of funny in a way.
I don’t really think either way is a strong argument for not being heard though. People who have more hours played or more money spent don’t necessarily have a more right or wrong opinion of things.
I can understand as a company though you’d probably try to accomodate the bigger spenders or the 1000 hours-ers over say a person who bought the game and just played 2 hours.
Tl;Dr: don’t dismiss people over a false sense of superiority based on something as silly as opening your wallet.
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For the time played part… if you want an opinion about something you are intrested in do you want the opinon from someone who played a game for 30 Minutes or from someone with hundrets of hours in it? Do you want explenations from someone who played a game for 10 hours or from someone who played hundrets of hours? Time played = experience, to me it sounds like a good thing to listen to people who know a product in and out rather to someone who looked at it for 10 minutes and says “Well… shit!”.
Buying power is only important to a certain degre yeah.
Does it make them more correct though? If someone finds a bug within 30 mins of playing they aren’t any less correct. Also a person with 1000+ hours might love the game so much they are willing to overlook little things.
That’s the falacy, time invested may be more experience, but more experience doesn’t necessarily mean more qualified. More tags in the forums doesn’t make your position on opinions have a higher weight or the right to dismiss the opinions of others based in them not having the same tags. In this very specific example saying that the people without tags are clearly freeloaders without an interest in supporting the company doesn’t make their opinion on the monetization less correct. It’s like saying we will base the validity of their comment based on the number of tags, and more tags means you get to dictate for those below you.
My personal experience is someone who played a lot really hyped up the crafting portion of the game. I went huh that’s neat. It’s my least favorite feature. Doesn’t make either or us more correct than the other.
Also the word doing the heaviest lifting in your question is opinion. As long as you have genuinely used the product, you can safely assume they will have some sort of opinion on it. Maybe the person who played 30 mins didn’t like the game for X reason, and that’s fine.
If you are curious about a real world example, in my teens I worked at McDonald’s and we had an employee that was nice, super energetic, and a hard worker. She also didn’t do the job well. Long story short we found out she had been fired from 6 different McDonald’s and simply forgot to say so on her resume. How did we find out? She burned her hands trying to fish a french fry that had fallen out of the basket into the burning hot oil.
There are also lots of horror stories of people placed in management positions who waste loads of money and time trying to prove themselves by innovating some aspect of the job, without knowing why the job is done that way.
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Both have value. The experienced player’s opinion on the game as a new player/early game is going to be as relevant as the new player’s view on end game.
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Such people exist on the end of the spectrum but you can ask yourself one thing. Do you pull op some nonesense examples that suites your narritive that is crumbeling just to be right or do you think it’s better overall to get feedback from experienced players or ignoring steam revies under 10h completely? Just to throw another example in.
If you just want to argue arround to prrof your point I’m out because that’s useless to me.
Depends how new the player is. For example I don’t play PvP games outside of turn based strategy. So I know 99% of the PvP parket is not for me. So if I pickup a PvP game play it 5 minutes, leave a “Endgame sucks, the endless PvP cycle is crap.” my review has 0 value.
Somone who played Last Epoch for 5 minutes and tells me endgame sucks would be equaly valuable. Somone who said “Hey I looked into it and watched some video and I can tell Last Epoch is not for me because what I’ve seen is not to my liking.” even this is more valuable then my first example.
Yes there can be valid feedback after little playtime and yes there are people who talk shit even after playing a game for 1k hours and still have no clue but those are extremes.
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It’s just an example. Here’s another one: if someone has 100 hours and only ever played acolyte, I don’t imagine they have a broad expertise in the game, but I’m sure they have a lot to say about acolyte.
The entire point, cutting all examples aside, is pointing to a title, or a number, doesn’t make you an expert, and it certainly doesn’t prevent people with less titles or numbers from forming opinions or having different points of view. People with high hours played and big title energy aren’t all fitting nicely into one basket either; some want to support the company more, others are mad that their support wasn’t enough. That’s not even a hypothetical example, it’s observable.
No narrative. If you want to clutch your pearls because I said treat everyone with enough respect to at least listen to them then what you consider “useless” is just anything outside your hug box.
I’ll make it even easier. If someone played for 10 hours and doesn’t like it, wouldn’t you, as a developer, want to know why? Or you do completely bury your head in the sand and go “well they aren’t a true fan, why should I listen to them?”
Maybe, just maybe, it’s because after 3 million copies sold they have 1500 active players. You definitely want to listen to why people aren’t enjoying the game.
An even simpler example, I have a friend who has more than 4 times my hours played into the game nearing 1700 hours. He won’t do monos because he finds the base game too hard, but he still loves playing it. If I say it’s too easy, then clearly I must be wrong because the only thing we care about here is number of hours.
Edit: also super weird to go rabid on me but then agree with another who basically said the exact same thing.
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Yeah and a bad one. For your next bad example. Someone with a lot of hours even only in one mastery can tell you more about game mechanics and systems that are in place that are true for everyone.
Someone with single digit numbers who played everything most likely will struggle to grasp all of it.
There were far more new players asking stuff in the ingame chat… this is natural because of experience and some issues understanding things.
Dafuq? I talked to a lot of people with different ammounts of playtimes in many games. The basic rule with some exeptions was: More hours = better knowledge and skills.
Yes someone who never kicked a ball could make awesome shots but someone who kicks balls for a living with thousands of hours of experience will kick the ball better. There is stuff as talent or realy smart people and what not but those are an exception and not normality.
If experience and skill wasn’t a thing there would be no such things as leaderboards and races would be boring because everyone would be equaly fast because noone digs in deep or makes skill shine.
When did I ever said you should disrespect anyone. Starting this with clutch your pearls makes it at least a bit funny because you have some issues with respect and different oppinions as it seems.
I said more experience and skill normaly offers deeper insight and you twisted a narritive about it. i look at it statisticly without addaing any human factor to it and you pulled stuff out of thin air to create a narritive.
So just for you: Yes people are different and there can be insight and awesome feedback and suggestions when you don’t expect them. Those are still exceptions but they happen.
Again you should not touch the topic respect because you seem to have some kind of issues with grasping the concept. I’m not mad at all in any way I just look at it without any kind of emotion attatched to it because if I start with this I could listen to hours upon hours of explenations from a specific person. 9/10 of what she says is complete crap but she is such a nice person.
All I say is: In 90% of all cases more experienced players gave better feedback and had more fitting ideas to the stuff they spend hundrets and thousands of hours doing.
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You must, by extension, assume everyone older than you is more knowledgeable then because they clearly have more “hours” in life.
Also by that extension, all of the devs who work on the game daily must have invested more hours than anyone else and therefore their opinions must be more correct.
And that’s what I think you are hung up on. The key word you are missing every time your panties get twisted. The OPINIONS of each player don’t have a CORRECTNESS scaling based on the money you’ve spent on the game or the hours invested.
So let’s reiterate one more time cause you worked so so hard to just ignore it.:
You cannot, in any way, shape, or form take a look at a random person’s hours played and know what their experiences, opinions, or expertise are, classes played, content played, how well they played, if they played with others (a pretty big difference in difficulty). There are myriads of examples of how people’s hours could differ: spending excessive time talking in chat, afk breaks, players that take their time, or read / analyze equipment slower. If you want to point to leaderboards and go “see, experience” then yea, that’s actually measurable. Doesn’t mean their OPINIONS speak for me or others.
There it is again, the important word your reading comprehension manages to avoid every time. OPINION. So just to be crystal clear:
o·pin·ion, noun
a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
You saying someone else’s opinions matter less than others based off of money spent or time invested is not respecting them, and no I absolutely do not respect you for having that, say it with me one last time now, OPINION.
Read it, absorb it, consider how it relates:
The appeal to authority fallacy (or argumentum ad verecundiam) happens when someone claims something is true just because a respected, famous, or seemingly expert person said so, without providing real evidence or reasoning. It’s fallacious because an authority figure might be biased, unqualified in that specific area, or simply wrong, meaning their opinion isn’t proof; legitimate appeals cite experts and evidence, while fallacious ones rely solely on status.
Interesting to see what is happening, as I would like to remind you that casual players stated that money from this SPECIFIC targeted audience would be enough for the company development, now I want to see them paying those thousands for each utopian warrior so they can finally understand that actions have consequences, otherwise we will be having ther same situation over and over. Let’s see if those were only empty yappings.
Hyperbole isn’t a great starting point for an argument. If by chance the dlc character gets them enough revenue to continue cranking out content that remains free to all I’m not forced into buying it and I still get to enjoy more LE. Going to just wait and see what happens and enjoy the ride until it does.
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Commonly a older person will have more experience, yes. Obviously.
Exceptions apply. That’s also obviously a given.
Dunno what you wanna state there but Macknum provided a proper argumentation line where this is a expected given to be included.
Also not stated. And a developer is commonly not playing the game heavily, time restrictions.
Kinda hard to become as good as someone which no-lifes a game when you have to uphold a job… which is creating and adjusting said game.
You’re stating things in Macknum’s name which Macknum never said simply.
The only panties twisted are clearly yours here. And I don’t get why. You’re going entirely off the rails.
Time-based? Absolutely influenced by it. It’s highly correlated, not causated.
If you know the terminology properly. That explains it clearly what it means.
Namely that your chance to get correct information from someone with a higher playtime is substantially higher then otherwise.
Money I agree, that’s nonsense, no direct correlation.
Indirect we once again have correlation though as the players spending the most money have commonly the highest amounts of playtime percentile wise. Hence once more correlation through this aspect even.
I can reliable state though that said player won’t know how it feels to play into the deep end-game, how dealing with Aberroth feels or likely even how the jump from normal Monoliths to empowered Monoliths are.
There’s a lot I can easily say with guarantee that it’s second-hand information only or non-experienced (only viewed) information.
And I can heavily suggest that many other areas of ‘expertise’ won’t be filled out yet with that playtime.
What I can likely see with such a player is solely the first experience, which - as was stated - has value, but it’s not a in-depth review obviously.
IGN reviews suck for a reason, it’s them having no friggin time to properly experience it.
Yea older people do not necessarily know more. I could give some very serious real life examples but that would be very politically charged and would derail this even further.
If you are saying the devs, who have physically built the game up from scratch, have less knowledge of the game than their player base, you’d have to be high. They have their own opinions on how the game should be, they have different knowledge and experience, but they can still listen to others. They also most likely have hours upon hours of playing other ARPGs and decided to make one with the features they wanted to see. Do you discount those hours because it’s not specifically in LE? There is constant comparison between LE and other games like PoE, GD, TQ. If you want (and I doubt you do because it doesn’t help your argument) to correlate that similar games can also attribute to ones opinions, experiences and expertise.
You constantly have issues with reading comprehension so I’m not surprised. I’ve literally defined opinion. It’s not an opinion on opinion. It’s a fact about what opinion is. You can have an opinion on something with 0 hours invested. “I do or don’t like the game art, I do or don’t like that genre, I do or don’t like the price.” It’s not about correctness. You can try to explain a different point of view, but since opinions are like assholes (everyone has em) your 1000 hours of game time doesn’t make you more correct about whether that person likes the genre.
Correlations do not always mean causation. If I gave you 10 people all with 1000 hours of play time, you could tell me 0 facts other than they played 1000 hours each. You cannot gleam anything factual, you can only guess, and even then you can be wrong. In both of these examples you are making assumptions that both hours and money spent somehow relate to expertise. You are even trying to defend that people who spent money “correlated” to putting in more time and therefore must be experts. It’s not based on fact.
So because you, who clearly also have difficulty reading, can’t get this through your head I will point it out one more time.
In the direct, right now happening example, you and mak are assigning a value, this case being time spent, to arbitrarily mean expertise, which may not be true, so that you can dismiss the opinions of others, based on nothing but a criteria that you have made up. I’m not saying people with more hours aren’t more knowledgeable, I’m not saying they are wrong. I’m saying they aren’t the only ones allowed to have an opinion, or that those opinions are more correct than others.
The entire idea behind an appeal to authority falacy is to shut down discussion by dismissing the value or contributions of anyone outside your narrow viewpoint.
They know the technicalities, the code, the design.
They have vastly less knowledge about the feel and about non anticipated side effects which are manyfold in nigh every complex game.
If they had all the knowledge they wouldn’t need feedback. Hence it would be worthless in the first place.
Obviously there is! And cross-knowledge is a given thing too.
Doesn’t mean experiencing to play it will cause you to be a good dev though. And a good dev doesn’t necessarily need to be a good player. Often it even doesn’t align at all!
Realizing ‘what makes things tick’ is a completely different skill from playing the systems to your advantage.
Also when you start investing time into designing and creating you’ll not have time to refresh your experience substantially in relation to playing. This nigh always causes a rift between designers and players. That’s the main issue. PoE struggled with it, does still, LE struggles with it… and many other games do too.
Yep, and the talk went to ‘how valuable is the opinion’ which you simply missed the boat entirely.
You’re still babbling about the start when the topic went onward to ‘how much value should devs give to specific opinions’.
Has always been that… you’re just ignoring it.
Which indeed leads back to ‘reading comprehension’, for you though sadly.
Congratulations! 
You managed to read correctly!
Which was the point there, we don’t know the exact causations, hence ‘taking it with a grain of salt’ is the thing to do. And hence we can only act on correlation.
That’s one way it can be handled, the negative way. Which is pure stupidity.
And a shame you can only imagine this to be the case, which is probably why you’re going off the rails so heavily.
The flip-side of the coin is that information is taken in based on merit instead, which means proper actions rather then wayward ones.
Which you think is argued for is obvious… but you kinda might be very wrong here since you missed the point your argumentation partners tried to convey. Just sayin.
You are assuming the devs don’t play their own game. Which is just so easily proved false, their dev streams are then playing the game while answering questions. This wasn’t a debate on whether players with 1000 hours have better knowledge of the game than the devs. It’s about comparing 2 players solely on time played and assuming the one with higher hours is the only person who gets to be correct. “But there are exceptions” that’s a nice way of staying “I’m not wrong, but sometimes I’m wrong.”
If we are talking about how much attention devs should pay to players based on their hours played, I simply responded that discarding the opinions of people who have less hours and pretending that those with more hours have better ideas or opinions is a bias that doesn’t work in their favor. I assume you didn’t understand.
Where’s the cutoff? Do we only listen to people with 1000+ hours? As I’ve stated you can basically see the whole game in probably 10 hours, minus abberoth. Monos get more challenging, but I know from playing them they don’t change in any engaging way. Do we only listen to people who have killed abberoth? Does that mean people who have opinions outside of monos are wrong because they have less hours?
Hey we agree on something. So why are you tilting so hard into defending it?
I can’t dumb it down more for you. Opinion not fact. Opinion personal. Anyone can have opinion. Opinion A doesn’t make opinion B wrong.
Assigning arbitrary values to determine an opinions worth is what you are doing and defending, which as you put it, is pure stupidity. Being as time played isn’t even shown here, any dumbass can claim whatever hours played the want and so you are just going to believe them? Whatever hours you’ve played, I have more than you, so your opinion means less. You’ll just have to take my word on that. It doesn’t add anything of value for anyone involved.
You should absolutely realize your argumentation of ‘reading comprehension’ is applying to you.
I didn’t say that, you read into that.
I said they’re not doing it as much as several players do as they have to actually work on the game… unlike several players which don’t work.
So yes… obviously it’s proven false, because it’s a argument you made up yourself. 
Yes, and the answer to that was also a very reasonable and understandable one which was: ‘Obviously outside of new-player experiences the opinions of players with low playtime will be disregarded a lot more’.
Which relates to mechanical depth.
The exeption was mentioned, you still simply went off the rails.
If you wanna troll do it somewhere else.
Read the remainder of the answer.