I agree, and I’ll never understand why a game that has infinite difficulty scaling with their corruption system has brick walls in the way. I actually really don’t like the gear / crafting system at all, but I think if the curve was smoothed out it wouldn’t feel as bad.
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That is where the community put the game for the mos part yes, but it was never marketed as such. No official promotion of marketing material gave this specific of where LE is between otehr ARPG’s
And I disagree with every point you made. What you made seem like some absolute points are thigns I entirely disagree with.
We can go int oa deep discussion about the specific points, but that would derail this thread. I simply disagree with basically every point you made in some way or another.
Are you right? Am I right? Probably none of us.
The truth is somewhere in the middle.
Simply no. There are no such magic fixes, because everything you said might not even be a problem for other people, they might have other problems with the game.
I do, we just disagree immensely
Maybe you believe that and to be honest I really couldn’t care less about what other people thing of me.
But I can assure you there is no sunken cost fallacy going on, at all.
I do spend more money than the average player on many of the games I play. I am also very quick at spending money on F2P games. But I am very aware of how much money I spent in video games and again, there is no game that I am that much attached to that I keep playing or “defending” it, just because I spent X amount of money.
First of I am not “throwing” money at them or any other game dev. I spend m oney on games that I like or enjoy for various different reasons.
Overall I can only say it again. We two are very different in many aspects. But what I absolutely do not like about you and how you present sutff. You are talkign a lot in absolutes, like there is only that one truth, but there isn’t.
‘Easy to play, hard to master’.
Hence the baseline difficulty of the content is low but the options to make it harder are big.
If you have content which is hard as a baseline it breaks the premise of the first, as it’s not easy to play anymore.
If it has no options for you to scale it so it becomes hard it breaks the second.
That’s by the listed on the Steam page:
- Easy to Learn, Hard to Master
We’re committed to making gameplay approachable for new and veteran players alike by allowing you to jump into the fray quickly and providing many in-game resources. Though don’t be fooled, Eterra has many dangers waiting for you that require a mastery of combat and build-crafting.
The scaling is shit, absolutely so.
That’s objectively the case.
You can have fun besides objectively bad stuff.
There are.
They just don’t take it and some specific people always talk against them.
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Initially that is true but the Devs themselves have said multiple times that, that is where LE is situated so even if they may not have started that, they certainly were quick to jump on that bandwagon making it a marketing point.
You can disagree with them, the best players do and want the game to be even harder and more pinnacle bosses which to begin with, shouldn’t even have any considering where the game is trying to situate itself. More importantly however, this has been the most reported problems with the MG/COF being one only reported more recently since that was only in after 1.0.
What I said is not a problem for the best players for sure but these are players who also play PoE and are doing pinnacle content day 3. I don’t believe we can count these kind of people as being the standard.
You can say that it’s impossible to please everyone which I will agree. But LE is meant to be between PoE and D4 and right now it is harder than PoE at the begining of end game and gets easier if you can get over that difficulty spike which is one of the main things that needs to be removed.
If this was true you wouldn’t defend what you know is blatantly bad for the game and for it’s community. You wouldn’t excuse it with “what else can they do” when it’s quite obvious what they could. Even if you can’t agree with the problem itself surely you agree that people quitting the game after a week is a problem and you don’t see this happening with PoE or D4 which clearly indicates they don’t have this problem because they can somewhat balance the game well enough for it not to happen.
You are right that I talk in absolutes a lot of the times but not all the times. I’ve said before that I expect a revenue loss between 50% and 80% and that I lean more towards the 80% than the 50%. Where I am unsure of how it will go I will be careful with how I say it normally, everyone is human after all, but where I am sure I will talk in absolutes.
Wanna know another case I talked in absolutes. The Cycle: Frontier. I told them what were the problem, I told them the game wouldn’t be profitable if they didn’t do it and wouldn’t survive past 2 years.
White knights came in defense saying how wrong I was and that a game can survive with a smaller player base and how the investors wouldn’t abandon the game because they wanted to see the investment get them returns.
Turns out I was wrong, it only lasted 9 months before it died and the last 3 months was already at the shutdown point because they announced the 3rd season as the last season for lack of profits.
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And why do you think that might be the case? Because, and I appologise for repeating myself here, it’s not as trivial as you say it is. Maybe reading & thinking about stuff is different to actually experiencing & working through stuff? Nah, that can’t be true.
Yeah, I agree, it probably is, but you’re ignoring what I said for cheap shots. Bravo sir!
Some of the issues you talked about I never even heard about or at least didn’t see any major discussion surrounding them. You don’t know what most peopel complain about and I don’t know that. Everybody is in their own bubble of different paltforms and awarenesses.
I am mostly on this platform here and occasioanlly looked at reddit. To my point here, some things I read on reddit I never even heard mentioning on the forum and vice versa.
Yes there are some more common complaints, but there are no magic problems that once fixed the game will be better and all of the sudden will attract tons more players. Its a accumulation of many different things.
Also I don’t know what the “top players” think or don’t think. (Because I don’t care nor look at what they think). I solely argue from my own PoV, which is neither meta nor “top player”, but also not new/beginner. I am fully aware that my own way of playing the game is not how most people play the game, but I am also not here pretending to know what ahs to be done to “fix the game”.
You think its blatantly, but in fact it is not. You might disagree and dislike it, which is fine.
But whatever is happening here right now with LE, EHG and Krafton is not as black & white as people portrait it.
Player retention is always a big thing in these type of games and LE is certainly not the big player among these titles. I myself disliek that LE doesn’t have the longevity per cycle that I would like, but I also see the game getting better and better over time. PoE couldn’t compare with LE context/player retentionwise with LE at the same stage of development.
I still think that LE simply need more time to refine, which hopefully will happen with the next few seasons. But in the meantime it is still a game that I very much like, even with all its flaws, because even the big games liek PoE have major flaws.
Well I didn’t interact with you much over the lifespan of this forum. I can’t recall and don’t wanna assume stuff.
But right here in this thread you are talking in absolutes very much. Similar to Kulze, which I disliked interacting with for months before I finally muted him. I just can’t stand people talking like they are know-it-all’s and make people believe they know how the world works, because they are so clever.
You are not at that level yet, but getting close to it.
Anyway I think this is leading nowhere now, so I am gonna retreat from this thread.
With whatever future LE has, I am still looking forward to the next season and happily play the game.
Just to be clear, he said he doesn’t “really care for Krafton”, not doesn’t really care “about” Krafton.
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If you don’t care and if you don’t know what needs to be done to fix the game then your feedback is borderline useless. You are entitled to have an opinion but it’s not validated by any solid argument other than how you feel about it. Feeling about something still indicates something can be done about it but it’s hard to understand what.
Other people like me or others have indicated this problem many times and as Kulze pointed out, problem is the people who then come out of the woodwork saying that it’s wrong and the game needs to get harder. These are the people who want LE to be PoE and they do everything they can to bury the feedback but Devs have teams to monitor the foruns so they have the feedback, they know the problems and if you say these problems are things you don’t see people saying and are the first time, it just shows that you don’t pay that close attention because here’s the funny part. Every update during beta and now every season I’ve provided this feedback and apparently this is the first time you saw it. Wouldn’t be surprised if you didn’t saw the others too.
The only part not black and white is what Krafton does not allow EHG to say. This is blatantly bad because if this goes forward the game will die. People are already saying they are quitting the game for good, some are going to quit after it happens. What do you think will happen when you lose a huge portion of the playerbase and as such also the revenue? Do you think Krafton is going to be operating LE at a loss when they are already desperately adding aggressive monetization? No, they will cut their loses. You’ve surely seen this happen over and over again with many games. If they are not turning a profit they will close down, they don’t keep trying for years to make it profitable, not if it’s a large company behind it.
It doesn’t matters if LE isn’t a big player in the ARPG market. To begin with they can’t be if they don’t have a good game. Retention comes from players enjoying playing the game and thus playing it for longer. This much is obvious. If they are quitting as early as a week consistently every single season, it indicates there is a serious problem. One that has been reported over and over regardless of whether you paid attention to it or even agree with it.
I don’t pretend to know everything but I certainly can see the problems games have if I have played them and I can see repeating patterns so things become rather predictable. Why? Because they always go down the same route. It may take a little bit longer or be much faster than the prediction, I’ll give you that much but it will happen. You know why? I have been always right in this matter. The only case I was wrong was No Man’s Sky and even then the only reason I was wrong (and i learned from that) was because there was no big company behind it and the Devs really were committed to it but had there been a big company behind it even No Man’s Sky would have been left as it was at launch.
It’s up to you what you want to believe in but we’ll see in some months, maybe a year down the line. Either LE will be dead or the decision will have been reversed. Worst case Krafton doesn’t cuts it’s losses as soon and give it a little longer if they go with this ahead but the result will be the same.
Obviously. You’re more detached and can see issues which you cannot do when inside as easily!
But you know… it really really doesn’t take a mastermind in the situation we have here to see what’s going on.
It also really doesn’t take a mastermind to see the core issues EHG has with their development process.
It rather takes a blind fool to not see it.
And I don’t believe you’re a blind fool.
Which one from the provided list?
- Marketing position of between PoE and D4? (Uberroth being a shit implementation for example falls into that)
- Gear being of major importance? (Which is obvious and expected, the complaint here is the itemization progression hence)
- Blessing being a bother to grind?
- MG being a badly scaling and aging system?
- Difficulty spikes from Lagon, Majasa and towards empowered monoliths?
Which one exactly from that list isn’t obvious? Outside the blessing one which is rarely mentioned anymore since power went substantially away from them by now?
I mean… come on @Heavy , you gotta live under a rock to not see them personally and even more so if you missed the repeated… endless… discussions with always the same arguments that led to… nothing being done as ‘all’s fine and good!’ seemingly. Which is why player count rises so much, right? 
True, because they’re not magic, they’re actually basic shit.
A proper smooth progression… is basic shit.
Providing content related to how you position yourself on the market… is basic shit.
Providing a functional long-term market environment (sure, small issues) is also… basic shit by now with all the examples present.
So you’re absolutely right! They’re not magical at all.
Which is severely limited as you’ve stated before being a altoholic and not playing into end-game.
So obviously you know jack about longevity for singular (or at least few) characters… which btw… is the vast majority of players overall.
If you’re not a cook and eat a meal… and the people at the other table get a half-charred meal… and then another table as well… all with the same ordered food. Are you telling someone who you know ‘go there, it’s great!’ when you can expect them to order said food the others got as black bricks?
You don’t need to be a expert to find faults all too often, it’s actually rare to have the need to be.
LE is the friggin second biggest Steam ARPG world-wide. How much bigger do you wanna get? Multiverse top 100? 
Which is factually wrong and one of the worst comments I’ve read to date from you.
It’s so blatantly wrong I don’t even wanna search for the proof personally as it’s a waste of time and should be common sense as a ARPG fan trying to compare those two.
So when exactly was retention better then in PoE?
Alpha at 2010 for PoE, First access at 2018 for LE.
LE is 7 years old now.
So have a total of max 7 years to compare.
PoE didn’t properly ‘release’ until 2013, it was a alpha before. LE also had a substantial EA phase.
So let’s compare it after 4 years, right? LE 2022 with PoE 2014.
PoE 2014-2015 started off relatively high, lost that year until their next major release a decent chunk of players but has a ridiculously ‘shallow’ curve. Off-season 8,4k from a peak 24k.
That’s friggin massive retention.
LE has 2022-23 had jack-shit going on most of the year, then in the middle had a big release, went to 40k (quite massive!) and then collapsed back down to 2k floor, nigh nothing. No longevity as all.
What a shitshow in comparison.
Want me to go into the next years too? So quickly then…
Next year: small release, extremely flat floor, high playercount for the floor-time still. No massive peaks though. LE had release, massive spike… collapsed right back to pre-release, next release flopped.
Next year: PoE popped off with the actual decent releases. 4 peaks, still rock-solid floor. LE… 1.2 release… boom… back to nothing. Never even came close to release peak.
So… where exactly does it uphold, hrmm? Peaks of PoE were smaller at the time, which is also long ago with not yet full market saturation unless nowadays, and they hold 4 friggin times as many people off-season back then compared to LE.
Who cares about 20k during peak times for LE when you got months with 4-6k more players non-stop?
PoE released with a in itself finished story and actually solid core systems without major hiccups in progression in 2013. End-game was shit… but the item progression there still fine actually, just one mechanic hence.
LE took double the EA time which PoE did, produced a non-finished product and has severe issues mechanically still. No… not only end-game, which is a problem… but also campaign has issues, is partially reworked, partially ignored… a complete mess.
Are you maybe talking about another game? Grim Dawn maybe? Or something in the direction? 
Heavy has extremely selective reading skills…
He reads what fits his premise and forgets everything else ever existing.
Hence why ‘those issues were never heard about’ despite being the most prominent topics in the Forum for years
To be fair they’re the unicorn of gaming. I have more respect for them then 99% of developers otherwise.
Because they stuck to it and pulled it through instead of simply rushing forward. That’s top-tier decision-making they showed.
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AHAHAHA this is actually funny. I unmuted you because apparently there is a lot of commentary from you towards my messages.
But reading this paragraphs makes me wanna mute you instantly again.
This is insane lol. I am the opposite of an altoholic. I am not sure where you got that from. I solely play one, maybe two characters a cycle deep into endgame. I just don’t play meta shit.
But my point was, that everybody only argues from their PoV, which always is limited in a lot of ways and I am not here pretending to know what all has to be done, because what I might would want the next person doesn’t want.
Anyway bye.
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Well, then I screwed up with my comment about that, sorry in that case. I remembered reading a comment from you… but seemingly it was someone else then and I screwed up.
But as for this part:
Which upholds 95% of the time.
The other 5% it’s simply eagerness for design rather then personal gain. Doesn’t happen often as to why you’re commonly right… but it’s not always true.
“People’s opinions are their opinion man!”
I mean I get you are saying people don’t really meet half way / consider the other point of view etc., but in general yes, the opinion you have formed is usually the one you will argue for.
That is the essence of many many gripes I have about many many arguments and discussions, especially on video game forums.
A lot of the time people have very strong opinions and feelings towards a certain topic. And many people fail to see, that there is another side, another way of seeing things.
Not always, but very often out of pure ignorance, because they think their way of seeing something is the one and only side.
And for me, because I personally despise that I always tried showing people that its not black & white in many cases. And people react very different on that.
I have been called many different things mainly because of showing unpopular opinions that the “majority” doesn’t align with. But for me it is always extremely interesting to look at topic from all sides.
And me as an individual obviously, I have some preferences and what I like or dislike as well, but I think I am very good at seeing things from all perspectices, even if I don’t agree with all of them.
And going back to LE/EHG, I think EHG has always been very good at listening to all sides and doing changes that truely feel like they met the middleground for a lot of these topics.
I think the best examples here is Item Factions: CoF + MG. While both individuall are not perfect, having these opposing, mutally exclusive item factions that define how you acquire the vast majority of your items was a great idea and still is.
Second idea that EHG did very well is the legendary potential system. While also not a perfect system and comes with its own flaws and challenges. It is damn close to being the best solution to making Uniques of all rarities and powers relevant, while always having some chase goals.
So even with this paid vs. free content debate I am sure EHG will try to find a way to make people happy, evne under the bad circumstances.
But people should stop telling me, that I am part of a problem, just because I am willing to pay for some premium content.
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The current problem is that they need money to stay open. It’s hugely hypocritical to attack someone who wants to support the game when you have zero intention of ever supporting it based on a loosey goosey “promise” that there would be a one time purchase for ever and ever.
It’s like thanks for keeping the doors open but how dare you suggest I hold the door for someone else?
The black and white is clearly not black and white here though. People who wouldn’t pay no matter what, people who would pay no matter what, and then in the middle people who would prefer to pay for an expansion but not classes, and people being ok with buying a class as long as the expansion content is free. It’s just as boiling mess.
If EHG is good at listening I wish they would be good with communicating too. As I stated this roadmap is the first in months from them that wasn’t patch notes, and then they scurried off again.
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“Roadmap”
Still baffled by that thing.
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Yea its something alright. I guess the real roadmap was the friends we made along the way.
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Meanwhile, druid in poe 2 will be free
Meanwhile, meanwhile, PoE 2 doesn’t have a box price & the druid is part of the base game.
So what should they do? If people say “You said it’s for free so make it free!” should they make things free and go bankrupt? They’ll try to squeeze money out of LE in every way possible but not in a good way. They can’t step back on stuff they say every time it gets inconvinient for them.
IF they listned to reason and not only to people who told them how great they are we would not be in this situation. You need to be reasonable to make reasonable descissions.
What is aggressive monetization. BP are the worst becaue they either are completely useless and noone cares or offer stuff that triggers fomo or a fast path. Selling good MTX for starters would work like a charm but their designs are terrible and they don’t listen to reason when they are told “Your MTX is fugly” like forever.
If they do this would you cover the costs if it will fall appart? All you said is a reason for myself and a few people I know to never look at LE again. So your gurantee comes with what reasurence and help if they fail? Talk is cheap.
Ample timeframe before it has to be done mentioning the possibility.
Also the way it’s convened.
Also the actions necessary to avoid it beforehand being taken.
Only of all 3 come together people act calmly. Each missed step is more outrage. EHG picked the holy trinity of messing it up there.
Depends if it’s a timed season pass or a seasonal implemented form of battlepass which provides a permanent option to unlock even after season ending.
Could go with enhanced speed during the season as a incentive but overall non-major slowdown comparably.
Helldiver’s 2 methodology but without the in-game currency unlock option for the pass itself.
The cost for implementation? With guarantee!
The overall needed revenue to get out of the red? Maybe not.
But that’s also not guaranteed with the class DLC. Actually it’s not even guaranteed with the Sony Release after the bad reception the game currently has, which could potentially turn off a substantial amount of otherwise buying customers already.