Keep respec system but lessen respect penalty

[Kulze]

@Izrahfil

You dont need the gear. IF your passives are + elemental damage, it dont matter if you swap from lightning to lightning, or meteor to static ball. Its all the same + dmg in the end. There is no reason to not change it this way.

Yes, and that would mean said character identity is completely gone.
Is my character now a meteor build or a static ball build? That’s quite the difference in terms of how the skill is presented… feels… and works. Makes it an entirely different character!

But, I can see those types of changes happening if the amount of people which don’t care about build identity overtaking vastly those in numbers which do care about it. Then we would simply need to wait another 5-10 years for a game to come out which caters exactly to those that waited since D2 for that, PoE being a bit hit-and-miss there.

Oh… wait!
That actually sounds like LE is exactly that!
Now would you look at that! What a sudden surprise!
It’s exactly the game which those people have waited for, which make up the core audience since before release and which have followed the game despite being in a far far less complete state then it’s now.
I guess that means EHG did something right there, wouldn’t you say so too? So I’ll once again argue: Build identity matters.

Not to you probably, not to a lot of other people maybe… but it’s what’s important to the dev and plainly spoken… even if 80% of the playerbase wants it changed then they don’t need to give a single shit about what anyone of them thinks. Why? Because this is the game they wanted to make and also the philosophies they’ve chosen to adhere to.

So unless they find a better way which they find fitting while not adhering to their philosophies it simply won’t change, simple as that. Take it or leave, those are literally your only 2 choices there.

@loroku

I disagree completely. In fact, I disagree so completely I literally don’t understand how this is possible, because to me it’s the exact opposite.

And that’s fine! Personal interpretation has nothing to do with it after all, it’s how the devs described it and what they’re following that matters for the topic of it. In every game you have things that are hit and miss… some love your misses… others hate your hits.

@loroku

To me, build diversity and character identity are both completely squashed when you have respec penalties.

Why? It’s the ‘choices matter’ approach. Which means while they provided options to respec they still intend to keep the limitations around it up. They could’ve also gone and made a D2 like respec system… which means none if we go by the original. Would’ve been viable too, but too limiting to pull a playerbase in with the otherwise available options on the market nowadays.

It’s something many people of the genre want given that D3 showed how the other end looks like and are hence entirely fine with it. Others (like you for example) simply want the other side of the coin. Why should the devs adhere to any sort of changes there even if the playerbase is split heavily in-between? Or even if there’s more not wanting it? You’re here despite that since it’s good enough. And those which are here because of it get exactly the game which they wanted.

@loroku

This I don’t know and can’t speak to, but if there’s a place the devs have explained that, I’d love to read it.

It was a long time ago. If anyone has a link to it I would be happy to put it into my bookmarks as well… but there had been fairly extensive talks about it years ago already which led to easing the respec mechanics up a bit to what they’re now. I don’t know when exactly it was and a quick search didn’t produce the right results (but other interesting ones) so I’ll have to leave it at ‘just trust me!’ which is a bad answer but I also don’t have several hours of time free to search for it, sorry

[loroku]

@TheLightningYu

in a genre like ARPG’s where one core-concept and main-appeal is to put some work and effort in your builds, … tinkering around with the points you get which defines build…

Yes! Yes, yes 1000 times yes, we completely agree!

@TheLightningYu

at the point where you can change everything on the fly, with not a real friction about it, it feels like the game doesn’t respect my time which i want to invest because everything is completly meaningless anyway

…Wait what? This is where you lose me. “tinkering around with the points” - that’s exactly what I want to do! But friction causes me not to do that. Friction means I won’t do that because I don’t want to be “wrong” and have to redo it. “Wasting my time on bad choices” is what makes my time meaningless, but you’re saying removing the threat of wasting your time is what makes your time meaningless? I am so sorry, I am really trying to get this but I am just not.

Even your D3 example I don’t follow: if you are saying the leveling process is unfun, then why would you want to do it again and again and again and again just because you put a few points wrong somewhere?

@TheLightningYu

Why should i put any effort, thought and time into a character, when every decision, every choice, anything at all which i do make is such non-existend because i can easily swap it on the fly with no friction at all.

Ok, I think this is the crux of it: swapping things on the fly doesn’t reduce your choice or trivialize your decisions! It’s the opposite! It ALLOWS you to actually make choices! When you can’t swap things on the fly, THEN you don’t have a choice! You have to do the only right thing. You can’t do wrong things because wrong things mean you have to start over and waste time.

Did you understand how every single bonus and affix worked the first time through the game? Did you understand exactly how each stat point would affect your character? I mean literally no one can do that. So why punish them for not knowing?

Having no friction actually allows me to make mistakes, which allows me to learn! Being unable to make mistakes means I learn nothing: I have to look all that information up beforehand so I can do the one thing that everyone else is doing because that’s what’s right. I am prohibited from learning because mistakes are too costly. The friction keeps me from wanting to make mistakes.

Anyway, I’m honestly not trying to convince you! I really appreciate this response because it does help me understand what you’re saying. I just completely, passionately believe that the exact opposite is true, lol. Maybe it’s only true for me, or some people, or possibly even most people - I don’t know! But at least I understand it’s not true for everyone!

[loroku]

@Kulze

It’s the ‘choices matter’ approach.

Ahh ok, so that’s the name for it. Yeah I replied in the above post but to me, “choices matter” means “you don’t get a choice.”

@Kulze

You’re here despite that since it’s good enough.

Yup! You’re totally right. And I do see this bigger point: that the devs have tried to “split the middle” and so they kind of pleased no one but they did make it “good enough” for most as well. And that’s also good!

It’s still not going to stop me from advocating for my point, hence this post!

@Kulze

so I’ll have to leave it at ‘just trust me!’

Haha no worries, I believe you! Maybe one day it will surface. But also if it’s been a while, people’s minds can change. We’ll see.

All that said: thanks a bunch for folks who have posted in good faith to help me see the other side of the coin! I still think my suggestion is great and I hope people vote for it, but I am understanding more about why someone wouldn’t.

[DJSamhein]

@loroku

Ok, I think this is the crux of it: swapping things on the fly doesn’t reduce your choice or trivialize your decisions! It’s the opposite! It ALLOWS you to actually make choices! When you can’t swap things on the fly, THEN you don’t have a choice!

It’s actually the opposite, though. If you can swap builds on the fly, you don’t NEED to make choices because you already have that choice on swap.

If you can’t swap on the fly, then you actually need to make a build where you have to take into account whether you want to have more farm speed but be slower at bosses or the reverse. You have to mold your build to be able to tackle all the content.
If you can swap on the fly you’re not making any choices, you’re just reacting according to the content you’re doing at that time.

[Kulze]

@loroku

Ahh ok, so that’s the name for it. Yeah I replied in the above post but to me, “choices matter” means “you don’t get a choice.”

Yes, or at least you’re hindered to make them too much. It simply as in-built downsides to give them psychological ‘weight’. It’s a fairly odd concept but for some reason works with the human mind since effort=value for us. Hence the more effort something needs the more value we deem it to have… or at least a good portion of people do.

@loroku

Haha no worries, I believe you! Maybe one day it will surface. But also if it’s been a while, people’s minds can change. We’ll see.

If I stumble over it again I’ll post it, I saw it just a week ago as well and now it’s a goner once more… should’ve bookmarked it back then rather then going ‘nah, why?’ But alas… here we are

@loroku

All that said: thanks a bunch for folks who have posted in good faith to help me see the other side of the coin! I still think my suggestion is great and I hope people vote for it, but I am understanding more about why someone wouldn’t.

Yeah, I’m all for improving the system. It still has some options which allows to make it easier for people. Like a dedicated ‘testing stage’ where choices have no impact on the game but you can test out builds, choosing afterwards without interfering in the actual content of the game.

Same with respec speed for lower levels where it should adhere to the same speed it has in end-game… or be switched around with being easier since it’s needed more there for newer players to find their enjoyed playstyle.

[MrJohnson]

@loroku

Respect penalties mean you will follow a guide instead of experimenting so there’s no diversity

There’s 0 diversity if every character is every possible build. Diversity is only possible if there are hurdles to respec, even if a small part of the community feels forced to go copy-pasta due to that (let’s be honest there, a lot of players use copy-pasta even with infinite free respecs, because they simply don’t want to bother).

@loroku

character identity is gone because you’re on “generic warlock #3”

If your character can freely respec at all times, it is generic warlock at all times. A copy-paste of a specific build is still that specific build, which is already a lot more identity than generic character.

@loroku

because it takes longer to respec than just start over.

That doesn’t happen in Last Epoch, and won’t ever, because regrinding lost XP is intrinsically less costly than restarting from scratch.

@loroku

It ALLOWS you to actually make choices!

If it’s instantly reversible at will, it’s not a choice, and it’s meaningless.

[TheRealKraggy]

@loroku

This is an EXTREMELY easy change that will require 2 tiny coding updates and make a big impact

True, it’ll make speccing irrelevant and have no meaningful choices to be made as you’ll be able to change your mind at the drop of a hat.

We don’t need a “simple solution” to a non-problem.

[pneumablade]

I wanted so much to try different skills between level 20 and 50. I lost 6 out of 10 skill points for respec. With 4 points, I could hardly get a feel on a new skill. This penalty disproportionately hurts early game when players need to experiment different skills the most. This forces players to look up guides and players are discouraged to try different skills. EHG, please lesson the penalty. For instance, losimg 3 to 4 points out of 10 is reasonable.

[demonobento]

I agree they can lessen it a bit in the early game. Skill swapping is kinda of pointless in the early game anyway. I mean, yes, they don’t want you to do a leveling build for all your alts and then easily switch to the build you actually want to play in the late game, but I think the penalty is a bit too harsh in the early game and actually drive people to level this way, instead of trying out new stuff in the early game.

[Izrahfil]

@Kulze

Yes, and that would mean said character identity is completely gone.
Is my character now a meteor build or a static ball build? That’s quite the difference in terms of how the skill is presented… feels… and works. Makes it an entirely different character!

Are you arguing for the sake of arguing? I feel like you are having a convo with yourself. We are not debating if meteor is different than static ball.

@Kulze

Clear area before boss → switch to single-target.

Not if meteor or static ball were the same. You argued that it would be to easy to swap from one skill to another and thts why the right click unspec should not exist.

We are not talking about if spells are the same, we are talking about your claim (ie that its to easy to swap with that respec system) whichalready exists.

[Kulze]

I’ll repeat it since you don’t seem to understand the concepts here.

First of all EHG is heavy on character identity.
Hence the example as to why meteor and static ball switch isn’t and won’t be allowed without downsides on the fly.

The second part is not allowing the AoE versus single-target switch to happen.

And my claim? My claim is that the current system is good, needs work at early levels and no easier methods later on. ‘Fine as is’.
There doesn’t exist a option to switch skills without downsides and there also doesn’t exist the option to change entire build-directions during content.
If meteor and static ball were the same then one wouldn’t exist, also simple as that.

The sole exception is gear which EHG has found no solution.

I mean… I explained it fairly clearly which points are there which EHG talked about when explaining their design-philosophy.
I agree with them, it’s fine not to agree with them. They simply made the game that way since a lot of people are out there which want that to be the case… as are many which don’t want it. The later ones simply not being pleased but it’s just in a position where you can solely please one group with it unless alternative methods are brought up.

[Izrahfil]

@Kulze

Hence the example as to why meteor and static ball switch isn’t and won’t be allowed without downsides on the fly.

@Kulze

Hence the example as to why meteor and static ball switch isn’t and won’t be allowed without downsides on the fly.

You do realize we are talking about passives being right click / left click, right?

As for skill conversation is a moot point. There is negative downsides already (ie you lose over half your skill points). There is absolutely nothing wrong with this change.

[MrJohnson]

@Izrahfil

You do realize we are talking about passives being right click / left click, right?

The whole thread is about removing gold cost and increasing minimum skill level to a point where it’s irrelevant, though.
If you are complaining about how the respec NPC requires constantly validating every single respec point, and needs you to leave its screen before putting points again, nobody is going to fight you on that, hence why people will misunderstand what you are complaining about.

If you are complaining that you cannot respec outside of town, then a lot of us are going to be combattive about it, because it removes a very important hurdle to respecing. Passive respec costs are already mostly irrelevant, so there’s no need to also make them changeable in the middle of content.

[loroku]

Hey folks! I updated the original post to make the wording more friendly and expand on the ideas a bit. I’m hoping this will help us all focus on what is being suggested and not get distracted. Thanks again for constructive thoughts!

[MrJohnson]

Just to remind you that, at high levels, 10x2 = 20. Basically, you are removing the skill penalty at high levels, and making it almost meaningless at low/intermediate levels.

I’ll also point out that, while I don’t like the gold penalty, which is mostly a moot penalty at all stages, removing it altogether makes it worse. If a change would be made to it, I’d rather it be replaced by a flat X% of a level (X to be defined, as it shouldn’t be very high, so as to make it very reasonable to respec a few points, but not so small that it’s basically free to completely change your build), with the ability to lose levels if it makes you go below 0% of your current level.
All that being said, I am ambivalent about the NPCs. I don’t believe they are needed for a good respec system, but removing them means a few quests need to be reworked.

As has been said numerous times, the issue isn’t only about making it impossible to respec depending on the content, it is also about making your character unique by being your specific build rather than any other build in just an instant.

[Llama8]

This was the wierdest thing to read. I’ve never actually come across 1984 double-speak until now.

@loroku

but to me, “choices matter” means “you don’t get a choice.”

You do get a choice though. If you want to be “right” then you have to accept the possibility that you could be wrong, fortunately the cost to correct that potential wrong-ness isn’t too heavy.

@loroku

It’s still not going to stop me from advocating for my point, hence this post!

Fair enough & things seem reasonably good natured.