Item removal points. A system if you will

Feedback and Suggestions
1

Could you please set this up so if someone puts an item on with say 2 points in throwing and then adds 2 points, later they change said item that it removes the last 2 points added to the tree and not 2 random points that were added hours before equipping the item?

Example - I’m currently levelling a shuriken rogue and at level 27 I equipped traitors tongue. I then added 2 points into my tree which by then were in attack speed +1 and more shurikens +1, then by mistake I equipped something in offhand and it decided it would remove 2 points from base crit. I had point max points into base crit then into crit multi about 25 mins prior to even equipping the dagger.

The current system is completely random and there is no justification for a random number generator when it comes to this particular part of the game.

I have tested this with 2 traitors for the last 45 mins in game now and its just completely idiotic.

Unequip, remove the most recent points added not something from hours prior that werent even selected with that item.

If anyone likes this system or is going to give me their 2 cents worth of forum thoughts, honestly gtfo. This isnt one of my hair brained ideas this is something that’s just plain out right stupid and random and needs a system.

Thanks.

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2

They put that in because it opens the potential to remove items and return them and hence make it so you could change your build from a single-target focus to for example a AoE focus with some skills.

That’s the reasoning for the existence.

What I’ve already suggested since it’s a really awkward workaround is for the system to remember the points and auto-allocate them the second you get back to the potential max.

With that the only issue exists if someone actually goes out of their way to respec a point after removing an item and then the item gets applied again. Which is also no issue if the fallback system is the current one, hence unless you reach the max again and if you respec a point it shifts those skills to the former system and hence enforces you to reduce the max level of the skill accordingly to apply points somewhere else.

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3

I get the idea behind remove/re-add for single/echos - I was using this hammer throw guide on max and you spec into single for it and the guy was like “just remove and re-add an item with points in hammer throw” haha you remove ANY item and it pops off random points which yes allows you to spec into single but it takes them away from VERY important damage nodes thus making your single target absolute trash! Once you finish dying because single target sucks but you work thru the fight you change items and this time it’s removed 2 points else where so you end up with a bunch of missing points and you have to run echos to get experience to repopulat them haha!

Honestly I would take ANY work around for their to just be no chaos in the system or actually now I’m raging errr thinking about it why not let the player select which points are removed? Surely that could be added without any sort of upsetting the system I mean it’s not like it’s going to help an over powered umbral falc or time rot jav kill their uber boss any quicker it’s just going to make playing more enjoyable for people who 1: want to spec for single or 2: have fat fingers like me and click by mistake or 3: use an item during campaign and want to upgrade after lmao

4

It is not random, what point gets removed. It is predetermined by an algorithm. With the same Skill Spec Tree Setup, it will always be the same points that are removed.

The system comes with a couple of downsides, but the intent of the design is achieved and I think its a small inconvenience that is worth it.

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5

Honestly you can love the hell out of it I bet your life that way more people hate it than like it, and after testing it that supposed predetermination is random. 100% I spent ages testing it with 2 x 2 skill point daggers. The system is SHIT and needs addressing. It’s more than an inconvience for some people. I’m glad you enjoy it though.

Having it set so the player can choose is absolutely in NO way going to affect anyone but that persons game play. It’s not going to allow them to beat uber abberoth suddenly - no their ridicolusly unbalanced classes already do that. It’s not going to allow them to run 1000+ corruption easier. It’s a QUALITY OF LIFE addon.

I honestly don’t understand why you would say it’s an inconvience but worth it. That makes no sense when they could just change it slighly to have no inconvience.

Ridiculous.

6

I didn’t say I love the system. I think its a necessary evil.

If it truely is random for you, then you should report your specific scenario as a bug report, because that is not how it is suppose to work.

I can see where you are coming from, but that is not entirely correct. While you might feel that way, things like this change the way a game is played and perceived and thus it will develop a common strategy or meta to play “efficiently”.

This will not only effect each individual person, but will affect the way how builds are made and especially how build guides or advice on how to build your character will be done.

I just really truly despise games where the best possible strategy is not having a full coherent build, but to constantly click some buttons in some menues to shift power around.

7

You do realise that right now the builds that are “META” and have been for the past couple of seasons require no item level skill changing? Erasing strike +4 on your armor, done. Stormcrow - SNAPSHOT which I’ve heard has been round years and the dev’s are just not skilled enough to fix it. Falconer - no change in anything needed just a very over powered class. Timerot Jav - 6 second kill on uber? No item level skills required infact some of the lowest item level skills on a meta build over all. I would understand your arguement if infact the builds that were making a laughing stock of the game did infact use or require this tactic to farm things easier but the facts are they just straight up dont. Out of all the builds I’ve played this season - ES, Timerot, Shield throw, Jav normal, Multistrike, Judgement, Vengeance, Shuriken, explosive traps, flask throw etc etc the only one that “needed” a skill point swap was hammerthrow for single target and its a pretty average class - I think Volca on Maxroll killed uber with it OFFLINE using his perfectly rolled / created offline items to do it and it still took like 6 minutes vs the other builds all doing sub 1 minute.

So please for the love of gosh tell me how changing this would affect the current state of this game?

8

I don’t know, nor do I care what the top of the crop builds are doing and what not.
But that doesn’t make a difference anyway, because from my own personal experience I know that there a plenty of builds(or skills) that would utilize this heavily, when swapping skill points around would give them a noticeable advantage without any major inconvience.

For systmes like this you don’t need to only look at the top end. You need to look at the game as a whole.

It is a slightly different topic, but intertwined with this, but we already came closer to a game where your build only is a few presses of a button in some menue with the mastery respeccability. Anything that brings us even closer to this, like even easier redistribution fo skill points will change how builds are played and leveled and what a complete build will look like in the end.

For me personally this will be a net negative for the game experience and how much fun I have with crafting my own builds.

9

I literally still dont understand - what I am asking for will simply speed up a process that takes 20 minutes or so I am unsure of how that negatively impacts you as the end result of what I am asking for is already achievable in a short time but I believe it shouldn’t be 20 minutes as it’s simply a pain in the ass.

I also dont understand how other people playing an ARPG using hot swaps affects YOU? like I said it wont help them achieve anything that affects you especially if you’re cof and they’re cof they’re not making money, they’re not collecting loot you can’t get omg bro sorry but this is doing my head in lol.

I am out. I wish I could create a poll for this because it would be a landslide in favour of. I’m sorry that you think this would in somehow shape or form actually impact you when most of us play alone in ARPGs.

Also the reason I mentioned all those meta builds is to show you that the best builds don’t require this. Sure maybe someone playing would use this to swap between bosses and farming but I bet that same person cannot kill uberroth so once again, who cares what they’re farming or killing it does not affect ANYONEEEEEE its simply quality of life.

Having said this I’m done lol have a nice day I still love you despite me your like of this is crazy :stuck_out_tongue:

10

It’s not though. As many many things EHG does it’s functioning to do what it should… and ignoring anything beyond.

As mentioned, solution above to make it feel nice and uphold said function entirely. Harder to implement though.

Not to speak that the issue is visibility (it’s supposed to showcase with a red outline what’s removed… but doesn’t work always) and convenience. The convenience is the downside… the visibility is bad visual design simply. And the downside can be alleviated view extra effort in implementation as well to a large degree.

Plainly spoken… you should.
Those showcase the scaling issues and overall design issues with the game heavily after all.
As much as sub-par outliers the top-end outliers are all to be taken into consideration when we talk about any balancing related things.

I know what you wanna say… but the need for those adaptations to builds aren’t existing currently. They might be in the future when EHG finally fixes their mess… but for now? Would be pure tedium and at worst be used to upheave underperforming skills by exploiting the system… the top-end doesn’t need it, you wouldn’t feel a viable difference.

Still shouldn’t be changed because it can lead to future issues… but for the current state a viable argument to make :stuck_out_tongue:

Because where it’s done is important. In content? You can adjust to situations hence, a skilled enough player can hence switch ‘on the fly’ and do variable content faster then someone not using this method. Like boss-farming for example can be achieved with that without using a downtime in-between with a extra echo to prepare and be substantially slower inside that echo.

With expanding content those situations would become ever more and detrimental. So it shouldn’t even start to exist as it’s just something EHG needs to backpedal from.

Which means the current goals of the system with which it was designed need to be upheld… while allowing the perceived downsides to become less so.

We got MG, that’s a market… how other people play does affect every player in MG.
Also it’s a MP based game, hence the extremely dangerous position of being a life-service game was chosen. And in a live-service game you inherently have people comparing themselves to others. If that wouldn’t exist then you wouldn’t need it to be live-service but could instead make it normal MP and be fine with it. But it isn’t.

11

I do agree that the way it is displayed to the player is very bad and shoudl be improved vastly. Also it should be comunicated much much clearer and better how and why the system is the way it is. This is probably the 20th thread about this suject, mostly because people don’t realize how the system works and why its in place in the first place. weather or not you agree with the ways and how’s it would still help if it would be explained properly.

No I don’t. This is not a balancing discussion, this is a feeling discussion.

I can just off the top of the head name you a dozen skills I personally played that would utilize this very much.

Lightning Blast
Eartkquake
Erasing Strike
Smelter’s Wrath
Mana Strike
Black Hole
Frost Claw
Wandering Spirits
Lethal Mirage
Dancing Strikes

12

Bro just to pick one or 2 of those from the list - ES does not need ANNNY skill points changed it goes insane damage and clears most of the screen in one hit, are you nuts? You do NOT need to swap it around for any situation what so ever. Abby dies, echoes die. It’s the same. Earthquake when I played it was much the same - castable one AND earthquake on proc.

This is insane because these EHG guys will read this and go “oh one person likes it lets leave it the same for the 1000s who want it fixed/changed”

Fuck I hate the feedback section sometimes. How about making your own feedback thread titled “hey guys I love the way skill points are fkn randomly changed and not displayed EVER when I swap weapons”

Im done, god I wish I could delete threads, another thing lacking - maybe not deleting my own threads is just another inconvience I should like.

13

You know there are multiple different ways to play the same skill? I didn’t say these skills require this strategy for every varriation. But these are skills that all have nodes that can drstically change how the buidl performs in AoE vs Single Target situations. (Either for damage, damage projection or mana cost).

I say it again: It is not random. If its random for you do a Bug Reports here or with the ingame bug reporting tool.

Its fine if you want to give feedback without any opposition, but that is not the main purpose of a forum. Feedback also gets more valuable if it is discussed in both ways, supportive and oppositional.

Why should I make another thread about the same topic, just because I have a different opinion? This way the forum would get crowded with multiple thread about the same topic but with different opinions. This would further make the forum a Echo Chamber even more than it already is.

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14

The system is definitely not random. It will always remove the node with the most points in it, unless removing that point would break a connection.
So if you have a 5/5 node and the rest are below that, it will always remove from the 5/5.
You can easily test this by removing and equipping the gear, assign the points back to the 5/5, remove and add again, etc. It will always remove from the same node.
So, as Heavy said, if this doesn’t happen to you (unlikely) you should report it as a bug.

They should just fix the alert system that is (apparently) still working in offline, where the nodes that were removed flash red after unequipping a +skills item.
That way everyone knows what node was removed and can quickly reassign it without having to figure out which one was changed.

3 Likes
15

Lightning Blast: Not a main damage skill but a supportive one.
Static Orb sorc uses it for Lightning Aegis, mana recovery and extra charge generations while exploding them.
Spellblade builds with Battlemage’s Endeavour, using high cadence Mana Strike to trigger it for AoE. Or using Dagorath’s Dagger since you can trigger Frost Claw through melee attacks which then triggers Lightning Strike and Elemental Nova to cause Mana Strike to burst heavily.

Earthquake really needs no changes since it’s ridiculous in AoE and damage at once.
Erasing Strike really really needs to help since it’s also AoE and single target at once in ridiculous amounts.

Smelter’s Wrath is a mess simply, all channeled damage skills basing their damage off of charging longer are inherently flawed unless you gain at least 30% DR during the channel time or the expected max charge is reached below 1 second… not 2. It’s really only decent against bosses.
You use charge reduction to push it to 1 sec, then use the extra damage at full charge with crit as a build direction, then go into more boss damage with kill threshold and use the last point to convert area to DoT damage. The other options generally suck comparatively.

Mana strike as mentioned above, usually a trigger, not a direct damage skill.

Black Hole really is a bad skill, massive cooldown makes it completely unusable. The CC is nice, the damage is nice, the functionality sucks. If you go heavily into cooldown reduction it goes down to around… 4 seconds at best. Erasing strike does a ton more damage and you either need to focus on meteor (which makes it solely a trigger then again) or you use it specifically as a moving thing for boss damage.
If you wanna use black hole as a actual damage method you need to get it to at least 24 points, otherwise you lack 40% more multiplier, especially since Black Hole is really really bad base damage wise and only scales off of damage effectiveness, so high investment needed.

Frost Claw is generally a trigger skill.

Can’t say much about wandering spirits, never used it.
Bladedancer is underpowered anyway, upheaval happens at best there, can’t make something too strong through it. But tedious definitely. Also can’t say much about it, haven’t tested those skills in-depth yet.

Yeah, and the majority of them utterly sucks sadly. You can… but it won’t bring you success. In LE you either need to trigger as many high damage skills as possible or you need to make your build into a bursting miracle itself… which usually includes AoE damage and size anyway.

Exactly, 100% there on your side, which is a visual issue.

16

Again you are specifcing very distinct things on some of the skills you listed, but there are other ways to spec a skill. And some of these ways could greatly benefit form just shifting 1-4 poitns around i nthe skil ltree to enable/disable a specific branch in the skill spec tree.

Yeah all my builds never had success and I am utterly bad. And still I am here having multiple 3 digit hours playtime, have done every content in the game and enjoying LE more than any other APRG.

This black & white thinking does really not help anyone. Just because you play something not the “objectively” best way doesn’t automatically makes it useless, utterly bad or unsuccesful.

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17

Playing and having fun with a sub-par skill or setup is fine and nothing to say against that from the player perspective.

You gotta make the distinction between balancing there as well as personal goals. If your personal goal doesn’t include reaching specific parts of the game or doing so with a strong build then that’s fine from your side, it’s not fine from the dev side though.

We’re talking about a power disparity of roughly 500% here in most showcased scenarios which I presented.
For example Erasing strike is extremely powerful when you slap ‘something’ together already, which is a bit too strong as a baseline already. A ‘properly’ scaled Erasing Strike is just nonsense on the other hand because it deletes everything in the game without issues, letting you play at 1,5k or 2k corruption without massive investment even.
In comparison your Lightning Blast? As a core skill? Good look to reach 500c, it’ll be a atrocious experience comparable, we’re talking 2000%+ for that in power disparity.

Such disparities are an issue and this is not ‘black&white’ thinking.

But sure, if you generally play until level 90 and then put down the character to make a new one then you can’t expect to see the overall progression struggles happening comparatively. Mind you, that’s not the norm to do for players. The common player first off plays a single character and tries to progress that. At best a second one. Multi-character players are a miniscule amount of the overall playerbase, in every ARPG… but the existence of the variety is mandatory to allow returning of players in the future to play a completely different style. A nice side effect is that heavily invested players time-wise have a good chunk of replay-value.

I might’ve missed a few potential builds there which could potentially reach realiable amounts of power to at least provide an experience getting you to kill Aberroth in a decently reasonable manner… but if you go away from the core examples of builds it very swiftly goes into ‘dimpling around at 200c’ territory sadly. Which has to do with the scaling of power in LE and how it shoehorns you into specific routes very strongly.