We should make bingo cards for the next respecc thread that will pop up and copy our posts to repost them all at once in that upcoming thread.
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Even better, we make bingo cards with: respec, gender choice, shard pickup, Lagon iz hardz (no kink shaming), nerf ward, etc. and we cross them out until someone has bingo 
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We should make one for each topic because everyone will be shouting bingo non stop and some people might find the interruption of those sorts very infuryating and offtopic.
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This wouldnât seem unreasonable, but it seems clear that what most of those players really want is infinite instant free respec, akin to D3.
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While I do think that some players want that and also that some players just want to switch builds at will to cheese boss fights, I also think that some are just trying to experiment and are negatively surprised the first time they try to do so, especially at lower levels. Implementing something like this would at least remove that excuse as a reason for these threads, while also allowing players that truly want to experiment to be able to do so at will to their hearts content.
Yeah, I agree, itâs not a good argument.
Thereâs a few other arguments though which are a lot better:
-It reduces player retention since they are able to freely switch between masteries. You reduce 15 times making a âbigâ time investment into 5.
-Also the player retention is reduced through quick switches in general. If it werenât for the 25 character limit I wouldnât advocate for a loadout system in the first place. Swift switches devalue the effort put into creating a new build, this makes it mentally perceived âless valuableâ and hence easily dropped.
Overall thatâs a very important thing to always keep in mind, anything you receive for free is vastly less valued in your mind if you want it or not. Free materials in Minecraft through the creative mode, your buildings arenât as âimportantâ to you as grinding towards them. Getting something simply given to you⌠youâre far more prone to just throw it away or treat it without care.
This is the same in games. If you need to invest into it it engages you since it creates a mental sunken-cost-fallacy.
The ability for it to exist de-valuates it though, not the usage itself.
Every game has parts you donât enjoy. Itâs human nature that you - sadly - solely treasure things which have forced you to make sacrifices to achieve them. This is why challenges are engaging for people in the first place, or well⌠anything that thrives us to do things. As sweet as the result looks it only becomes worthwhile if youâve had to invest something beforehand⌠effort, time, resources.
Obviously exceptions apply.
I thought so as well for a long loooong time.
Itâs actually the opposite though.
Such mechanics increase retention rather then loosing people.
Thatâs the oddities of the human mind.
It is one, if you consider it one or not.
And youâre absolutely right if you say that the leniency they provided has actively damaged their game long-term.
Youâre not punished, youâre forced to think beforehand as well as deal with miniscule consequences.
Punishment would be taking away already earned things, you havenât earned an alternative character but the one youâre actively playing. During leveling it needs adjustments for the respec speed⌠but outside of the early stages itâs such a miniscule investment in time that itâs barely even a consequence you would need to think about in the first place.
Like PoE?
That would make it inherently worse feeling. Youâre getting more then in PoE right now.
It always baffles me how the (at most) 30 minute time investment is an argument when the alternative is to invest vastly larger timeframes to acquire the same. Sure, if you play a while itâll already be enough for several respecs⌠but that actively hurts the early game changes more, which the system has the most importance while late-game the system is a non-issue anyway.
Understandable!
On the first sight it does exactly that after all, and I can absolutely understand where youâre coming from.
But itâs also the same notion that would make an auto-battler inherently better then an ARPG if followed to the end.
Thatâs why balancing between tedium and ease of use is always worth to consider.
I heard that a thousand times before from a thousand different devs. Iâm numb to that by now.
I enjoy a game as long as that stays true and drop it the second it doesnât simply, no matter how good the gameplay is.
Yes, because the system with Orb of Regrets is inherently flawed.
The game has a ridiculously high entry point for new players while offering exactly â0â options to properly respec for beginners, bricking their character with a nigh 100% chance without following a build-guide.
Obviously they want it to change since it actively damages their playerbase.
The premise is entirely different there.
This though⌠is wrong.
You can.
You actually do in Standard.
Longer-term players donât care about respec costs there, the more casual you are the more it hurts though, which is a major issue as the people which need the respec system the most are those which have access the least.
Why? Itâs the main reason for me as well.
I donât feel like I have actual variance in builds since the non-punishment system inherently pushes you to use always the best solution for any issue rather then the most fun one for your personal playstyle.
How idiotic would someone need to be to actively do that outside of personal challenge for some personal goalposts set?
Because youâre railroaded in your thought process. See above as for other reasons.
Reasons which have been tested and proven over decades of ARPG releases and comparisons for the reasons as to how player retention works.
If 30 minutes for a normal respec (worst-case) is âhugeâ for you then thatâs already fairly baffling.
If the 3 hours of shortcutting through the campaign via dungeons is âhugeâ then thatâs already more understandable⌠but still⌠baffling for an ARPG player.
âFull potentialâ
You have 15 classes⌠they couldâve just made a baseline 15 classes without the mastery system at all.
The way they designed it though is allowing a wider build variety and more options, making the choices more complex then otherwise.
Thatâs what youâre holding over their head simply said. Itâs not â5 classesâ itâs 15. 5 archetypes of classes, 3 sub-types in those. Choose which you wanna play, thatâs the identity of your character.
So no, a ridiculously hard ânoâ on mastery switching for any reason.
Also playing a looter ARPG and progressing through it is the fun of it, not the finished build. If you donât have fun in the progression itself towards that then itâs by design the wrong genre for you.
Explained above, player retention, perceived value in your mindset.
This game is played by millions of people, not only you though. Thereâs a specific ânormâ in the mindset of loot-based ARPG players, a tendency where theyâre leaning towards. Everyone of us has aspects they donât lean into or lean more into⌠making any argumentation based on the impact it would have solely on you personally rather then taking into consideration the mindset of the community (or at least trying to understand it) is generally not really helpful.
Everyone would enjoy a ton of changes⌠but you have to admit that some of them wouldnât be great for the game itself even if you would thrive personally.
This!
But it also shows thereâs something which can be made better if you find a way to implement it in a way which pleases both sides.
Thatâs how progress happens which is deemed âoverallâ good over the course of time.
Like an âeasy modeâ for example. That one was one of the most requested and wouldâve destroyed the game utterly.
No, thatâs not true.
Pay 2 Win is a mixture of all categories which make you use money to gain any sort of advantage compared to other players.
This includes the sub-category of âPay 2 progressâ for example, which is boosts, extra stuff you can drop in the game, speeding up any sort of time sink. Those mechanics are all atrocious and shouldnât be allowed to exist. Games are there to create enjoyment and not cater to the power fantasies of someone well-off in reality on the cost of the enjoyment for those not being in that position.
And any community related content.
Like group-trade
Or MG
And even then it doesnât take care of the psychological aspects which it causes for it to simply be available.
I see the respec option for Ascendancy classes as a major downside of the game actually.
One thing they did fairly badly in terms of build identity.
Is it?
Dark Souls 1⌠the genre defining game. No respec.
Dark Souls 2, has a respec system, also counted as the âworstâ of the series, so weâll take that out of the equation simply.
Dark Souls 3, to respec you need to find a hidden covenant, hence youâve got to know it exists and get through some hoops to even access it. Sure⌠it exists⌠but the average joe often doesnât even know it does.
Elden Ring, you got a very limited amount of respecs which are provided sparsely, hence itâs for the absolute and utter worst-case scenario where you really went into quite the wrong direction.
So I wouldnât say the main line of games in the genre have ways of respeccing heavily⌠not to speak of those games not even providing classes in the first place. Which is a design decision to make you feel like a fully malleable personality which underlines that youâre âutterly out of the normâ compared to every single other existence in the game.
To allow more build variety since itâs meant to allow partial access to the others so you can fine-tune the build more.
Couldâve made them full classes visually but wouldâve also reduced your options.
Yes, the presentation could need a bit of work, would take care of that complaint probably.
It is.
Terminology is important.
Words have meaning.
Words design how we perceive things.
Hence wording is a very very important thing.
Yes, it is.
Why not?
Looter ARPGs are generally meant to âcostâ at least 100 hours of play-time per cycle minimum if you want to achieve something large there.
10 hours for the first play-through
14 times 3 hours = 42 hours.
Total of 52 hours.
Half of the expected time investment during a cycle, half is left to upgrade beyond.
And youâre also not supposed to have everything in that timeframe anyway.
Those games are meant to repeat over⌠and over⌠and over, which means if you keep playing it for 1⌠2⌠5 years then youâll have experienced every mastery class several times over.
As intended.
Yes, absolutely. I agree it needs to be sped up early game.
But calling it âthe worstâ is hyperbole. Every played PoE and tried it?
Takes vastly longer then 1 hour per skill given the experience rate of gems related to the respective content you run.
Since quick swaps are generally something pulling you out of the game loop. A minor gripe which turns into a frustration over time and is a big point why people burn themselves out quicker.
Well, in comparison to many ARPGs which have zero catchup mechanics present I would say itâs a big upside already.
Also calling the campaign âthe worst part of the gameâ is fairly baffling.
Itâs well done with many hidden lore connections. Obviously playing through it the 5th or 10th time will make it less of a vanity but itâs nonetheless a great thing.
Theyâre seemingly working on the options to level secondary characters, so weâll see what comes out from that.
Actually⌠fully nderstandable!
D4 went away from being âoverly casualâ as D3 was. They just - plainly spoken - fucked it up in quite a few ways.
So removal of that was one of the biggest things to enforce people to play a wider variety and engage them for longer.
If the end-game and aspirational content wouldâve help up then D4 couldâve taken over the prime spot for ARPGs rather then LE or PoE. But alas⌠they had too many glaring mistakes.
Everyone has different things which are âdealbreakersâ for them.
No matter how great a game is⌠if it has P2W mechanics I wonât play it.
Same with survival crafting games⌠without a fantastic building system allowing me to vastly decorate all the other stuff can be as amazing as it can be⌠dealbreaker.
Loadouts and hence character identity is a viable argumentation for it being a dealbreaker to some.
Yes, dungeon skips are already there, takes the campaign time down to 2-3 hours. A bit of a wonky mess of sidetracking for some quests still but overall well handled.
Just⌠make sure to have a really strong character for the respective game stage to be able to clear the dungeon. Thatâs the major holdup currently. So only possible after farming with your main character for a while.
First of all:
LE doesnât need a build guide to fully enjoy the game.
Secondly:
Veterans from other ARPGs (mostly PoE) tend to directly zoom towards the top-tier builds. More casual players donât, they have a higher variance in builds.
Third:
It would take away from the aspect of optimizing your personal choices rather then just throwing them willy-nilly overboard and going with the optimal solution. Itâs a way to reduce build variance definitely.
Dark Souls is a game which heavily relies on âchoices matterâ. In Dark Souls 1 any singular attack to an NPC caused them to become permanently aggressive unless you knew how to solve the situation. In Elden Ring they went with 3 attacks instead to ease it away from simple missclicks, enforcing intent.
I already thought the switch from Dark Souls 1 over to Elden Ring wasnât something I enjoyed, I like to have to life with the weight of my consequences⌠given I can expect the outcome if I properly take the time to understand the situation.
Yeah, my answers start to become fairly ridiculous in size
But well⌠what can you do if youâre not ignoring stuff simply?
Yes, and for those you mentioned there itâs worth a consideration on how to ease up on those restrictions without interfering majorly with the already existing systems or devalue them in some way.
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I think thatâs pretty much what I said with the exception that only the first respec should cost you gold but not every switch to it. But Iâd be fine with that too as gold is not really a reason not to respec. Levels should not be reset though, only the first time you level a skill. But once itâs leveled it should stay leveled - imo.
@DJSamhein actually at low levels this is not an issue for me, itâs when I have a well made build fully skilled but want to try something different without having to screenshot everything before I switch. Thatâs all I want.
About DKS, I was there from the beginning (search my name on YT) and you always could respec in DKS since DKS2, it didnât even cost you anything but you needed an item for it, ER is the same and there are other reasons why it didnât land as well with vets as DKS, QoL is not it (unless you count Spirit Ashes as QoL). But DKS is a completely different beast than LE anyway, the current system in DKS >1/ER works well because builds are much more static and most only change for NG+(+âŚ).
More importantly, a âbuildâ in DKS/ER is much much less complex than in LE. You only allocate the points you have in a list of what, 8-10 attributes and equip the right armor/weapons. No need to screenshot or learn by heart anything, when you play a Sorcerer itâs almost self-explanatory where to put how many points. Most Sorcerers will be specced the same, same is true for most melee strength or melee dex builds. Thereâs not much variance in terms of builds, certainly nothing close to LE.
I just want to say that itâs refreshing, after our âbattleâ on factions, to see a post from you where I agree with every single point 
This would open the option to âpre-levelâ skills and then switch them on the fly before different situations.
Which is exactly what is to be avoided.
Any solution to the problem needs to be tackled with that in mind, if it doesnât hold up then itâs not âviableâ for LE simply said, no matter how much people run up against it.
Itâs one of the most important design-factors going into character identity and needs to be upheld.
If thereâs an alternative to uphold character identity in a better way then we can talk about taking that aspect away, but to date nobody has come up with one fitting the premise.
Which is the place we can actually tackle!
For example a design like this:
You can pre-choose how your skill setup should look like at âxâ points. For example 20 and every point above a singular sheet for that to choose how it looks like.
So then when you pick one of those it automatically de-levels your skills⌠but auto-assigns every point earned until the end-result is met. Only able to be done in town, only able to switch full layouts and not singular skills. From 20 to the absolutely maximum possible solution there can be for the highest ever reaching skill given unique and affix combinations.
This way you donât have to remember it, you canât âquick swapâ before different interactions and it also allows for said experimentation since you have to put the effort into it each time when switching again⌠which time-wise is a non-issue anyway.
Well, different topics different experiences and knowledge behind it.
Overall you construct your arguments fairly well after all, so itâs all great 
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Why?
In theory your point is valid and true for other games but I donât think that applies to LE (yet). In LE you either have a build that works and then it will work everywhere or it doesnât. At least for now I canât think of a single boss/dungeon/arena where I would want to change a functioning build just for this occasion, certainly not within the same class. Build tweaking/switching only becomes a topic when you push higher difficulties, ie higher corruption or arena levels and you current build canât do it anymore. But once you have a build that can do higher corruptions it will still be able to do all the other stuff.
I can only speak for myself because i donât want to sound like a complete fool talking about the us and we 
. I simply state my view of things and EHG can do with it what they want.
Strange then there was a new definiton of P2W inbetween our posts need to check this.
Most boring parts are dungeons I nowhere called the storyline bad. I think itâs bad to give people a skip and then make them rerun parts of the content they should actuialy skip.
That was answer on a post about dungeons giving passive points and idol slots and was debunked instantly. So whatever you are on about was answered already ^^.
Iâm a pro in ignoring stuff if I want to ^^.
Honestly the only reason why I want loadouts and easier respect is so I can test how a build works by changing one passive or skill point on a dummy.
Itâs really hard to know what is working and what is not and if things are scaling properly or as one might expect.
Quick respecting without having to level a skill again and loadouts would make it easier to buildcraft.
Respec is PERFECT.
Very little downside to trying different builds.
Anything tied to playing the actual game should never be in a cash shop.
Nani?
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Literally answered with the sentence above the quote.
And thatâs fine, but it does.
Examples are:
You would need to do a few monoliths (AoE focus) before attempting a shade or a boss with full power, hence that switch hinders your ability in the monoliths before.
In a dungeon you could simply switch from AoE to single target before a boss as well.
Exactly! Because we canât switch âon the flyâ is one of those reasons the current status quo actually exists.
Well, never had a reason to look for them specifically I imagine?
Thatâs the outcome of the system.
They exist though, you can switch damage application in quite the serious manner in some builds.
And even if that wouldnât be the case âyetâ then the chance for it to happen with new implementations in the future is high, simply by mistake.
For that alone the mechanic should exist in the first place.
Depends on the skill level and equipment level of the respective player.
It can happen during the campaign, during specific bosses while progressing, giving you an edge at a dungeon boss you wouldnât commonly be able to kill without a high chance of death or during high corruption as you mentioned.
By then you had dozens of those aforementioned situations passed by though. Acquiring that legendary item just a tad earlier⌠getting beyond that one boss which causes me troubles for my build situation at the moment.
Those could all be solved with a quick no-cost switch on the fly and be solved.
But they canât since we donât have a no-cost switch there, which is the whole point.
If you canât imagine situations outside of your own at all then youâll sound like more of a fool though.
Itâs the balance between speaking âfor the communityâ⌠which you canât⌠as well as imagining beyond your own personal experiences.
Thatâs where it starts to shine.
Did you mean:
Or what @TheLightningYu wrote with the example of older F2P games and how P2W changed over time?
Both align with what I said.
Pay 2 Win is a mechanic which allows you to gain a benefit in comparison to other players which arenât paying money for it.
How the methodology advanced over time and how people (Or mostly rather companies) try to construe it either for a lack of words or because they want to position themselves better is of no meaning there.
Thatâs the danger of taking the meaning out of words, itâs why terminology is such an important thing in the first place.
It allows for faster progression compared to the campaign.
Thatâs what people asked for, that whatâs delivered. To get the basic premise out of the way.
How thatâs done is another topic in and by itself.
Also the only worthless dungeon in terms of outcome currently is Lightless Arbour as Gold is too valuable for other situations (tabs or MG).
As for calling it âboringâ⌠thatâs your personal opinion, thereâs a decent chunk of people who enjoy them. I for one greatly enjoy the time-shift ability in the Temporal Sanctum. The defensive measures int eh Soulfire Bastion needs a bit of love definitely since it only applies to the end-boss as otherwise you get damaged out of screen anyway⌠hence making it a useless endeavor trying to solve it simply by switching defenses there.
Which has to do a bit more with the actually broken nodes currently. Those need to be fixed ASAP.
Then the need for those functionality tests fall flat.
Everything else can be handled with personal math. Sure⌠having a clear way of displaying it is nice beforehand, but the downside of what would need to be sacrificed for it simply is not worth that detail.
I donât understand what you mean here. PoE is the perfect example of a good respec system. I can freely move gems around and experiment with replacing them with other skill gems and lose nothing.
Itâs not like a gem loses all levelling progress just because I removed it. It retains everything. When I re-equip it, it is exactly where I left off. Respeccing in Last Epoch is loss of progress.
I am glad you mentioned PoE though. Because the PoE equivalent of the model used in Last Epoch would be if a gem reset to level 1 whenever you removed it from your gear. How would that work out do you think?
The current major gripe with LEâs respec system:
Early stages take too long to re-grind it back to the level it was before while being the situations where itâs most needed.
PoE comparison:
What respec? I got 2 points.
That inherently enforces youâve already leveled those gems, acquisition is of no topic here since itâs not possible by design, so donât even go into that.
And leveling a skill gem to the same level as the one you have first takes longer in PoE then LE makes you go through at any stage of the game.
So yes, you loose something, especially since itâs also limited by the color of sockets on your gear⌠which is another limiter youâre not taking into consideration, but I intentionally left it out before that sentence since we wanna compare the equivalent parts and not make strawmans, right?
True!
Which leads to the situation that pre-boss AoE to single-target DPS switches happen.
Just what EHG wanted to avoid.
Mechanic successful I would say!
Thatâs the premise, you can rush up against the wall for years and not change anything since itâs a part of character identity included in their base design philosophy⌠and one which makes sense.
Find a solution outside of that hence, if it affects it⌠itâs a no, no need for discussion even, itâs repeatedly coming up and drowning out the adjustments people think up which would actually be taken into consideration, slowing down game development actively.
Yes, as intended.
Miniscule but as intended.
Absolutely not given that PoE and LE work on a different premise there in a complete and utterly non-equivalent way.
For that we would need to first put a level base into the thought-process. So⌠level 14 for a level 20 gem.
Secondly you wouldnât be allowed to corrupt gems in PoE then since you donât have them socketed.
Thirdly you would need to align progression speed of re-acquisition with the gem system of PoE
Fourth you would need to implement the support gems - which are separate - into the skill gem itself in the first place.
Many many points of friction with the argument, hence⌠what are you going for?
Bring a proper equivalence to the table and we can start talking.
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You seem to forget that in PoE, if you change a skill, you need to relevel the new gem from the start. You can buy it already leveled, but that requires currency, which is basically the same as spending hours farming it so you can respec. So, in fact, you actually need more time to respec in PoE, in practical terms, than in LE.
Not to mention that PoEâs system being gated with corruption (EDIT: I meant currency) means that casual players will rarely be able to afford large respecs. But we already know that PoE isnât really casual friendly, so thatâs no surprise.
The only differences between PoE and LE regarding skill switch are:
-You donât get accelerated XPs, so leveling the new gem takes a (much) longer time.
-Once you have your gems fully leveled you can then you can switch them around without penalties (after having spent all the time leveling both skills or farming currency to buy them). And that leads to the problem EHG wants to avoid, because pretty much every build has an alternate setup where you switch a few gems on the fly for bossing and then switch back to speed farm.
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And that is equivalent to levelling a new LE skill from scratch. I have absolutely no problem with the concept that if I switch to a new skill I will have to level it.
Main point is if I put the old gem back in it has retained exactly the level it was at when I removed it. If I switch back to a previous LE skill, I have lost progression.
Yes, but you ignored what I said that, because of this, pretty much every build in PoE has an alternate setup of gems for bossing which you can switch on the fly for boss cheesing. Which is what EHG doesnât want in LE.
Not to mention that getting a gem to level 20 in PoE (let alone 20/20) takes much longer than getting a skill to level 20 in LE.