Good post. I like the suggestion of adding mechanics in harder/empowered timelines.
Right now, I do not think it’s too hard or too punishing. What do you lose getting killed by Lagon? Lost exp, repair costs, a long run back brawling through hordes of boring trash again? Nope, just try again, learn 2 mechanics and that resistances aren’t useless.
Well, “rush mode” can be similar to Mof in some ways,like:end of 1 first rush(no modifier,just bosses as they are)-> 1 random item/blessing.second rush(choose 1 or 2 modifier)->2 items/2 blessings.Third rush etc etc just giving random example and numbers.
(this is going off topic from the OP - apologies)
Well, sure you can challenge this assumption… IMHO, action role playing games are a bastardised mix of three entirely different types of games… hence the “sort of” in my statement… Roleplaying games like Witcher 3 /Skyrim for example have all the role playing and much less emphasis on gear and skill builds etc… Action games like Fortnite/CoD dont give a crap about anything other than pew pew from start to finish… Then you throw in DnD style games with the skills / gear and rolls and things get really complicated.
So with this hybrid, mix of things one of the primary things that I feel exists in games like LE/PoE/D3 etc is the fact that you run maps, defeat bosses, pick up loot, gain Xp and use this to improve your char to be able to run more difficult maps, then rinse repeat in what is inevitably a repetative cycle… at the core of it, what else do you do in LE? [EDIT: sure its under a overall storyline but thats about all the roleplaying component]
For devs its to keep content coming - i.e. more creative maps, harder bosses, better gear and more skills - fresh so that this repeative cycle continues before people get bored and move elsewhere.
If thats not what a person likes to do then this kind of game arpg is likely to be not for them.
Hence my “sort of the point”…
When I met Lagon first I died something like three or four times in a row. As I’m usually a poorly skilled player, I wondered if I was the right player for this and if I should give up. Then I read comments here about how to fight Lagon: get some resistances and learn the fight. I did one more try and it was a success.
Same thing with the Abomination, that was a shock because it was a difficulty raise compared to previous echoes. And hero after hero, the Abomination is still a kind of pain, because you have to tank him while destroying the vessels. Now, I have defeated all pre 0.8.1 timelines, so up to the Emperor of Corpses. I think the Abomination may be the most difficult boss of all.
Boss fights a mechanical, yes. And in my opinion, it is very well done and tuned. The game is not “click then skill 1 twice then skill 3 then click then restart the sequence”, you must observe and adapt, but everything is telegraphed and understandable. I think it’s the right level of mechanical.
My only regret is sometimes the loss of echoes. When I met Lagon 80 first, I died (I made an error). I wanted to fight again, but I couldn’t because of the echoes lost. I would have like an option to replay the fight instantly, instead of having to replay a bunch of echoes. I understand it can be useful to lose several modifiers, but instant retry also seems to be a nice feature.
As a conclusion, I feel the game is globally fair. It has a very good balance between difficulty, variety of threats and ways to manage all that. This very good balance is one of EHG’, biggest achievements with this game!
I personally think its fine as it is. But it could be an good idea to give boss some debuff each time you fail a boss that resets on you killing them. The debuff could do things like either lowering their dmg, health or slowing their telegraphed attacks, so for people who fail at killing the boss have it slightly easier the next time they attempt the boss.
No.
Oh, you want more? I’ve died to several of the bosses the first time I came to them but once I learned the mechanics I’ve not had any problems with them, even with objectively bad builds. After following the advice of my esteemed raid leader (stay out of the #### Llama, dead DPS do no DPS you ####ing muppet @Bax) & learning the mechanics, even watching some videos first to learn the fights. So I think that the normal mode monolith fights are in a good place for “normal” players & hopefully the empowered ones are in a good place for higher-skilled players.
I don’t think it’s too mechanically difficult.
Some things take time getting used to, but if you’ve played multiple ARPG’s then the mechanics should be okay to get used to.
Not saying that some boss fights are easy, they can be difficult, but they’re not impossible.
THIS, SO MUCH THIS
Hi
I’m happy as things stand at the moment. I would not call myself an expert gamer and I am nowhere near the ranks of the ahem more “elite” players (I am pushing 60 now so everything is starting to slow down!!!), but I play all the current ARPGs and I really think Last Epoch is well balanced and has an acceptable learning curve when it comes to MoF boss mechanics.
I die to bosses, sometimes more than once or twice (!), but I get there after a few attempts, and speaking personally, I would much rather feel the satisfaction of fist pumping the air and shouthing “YESSSSS” after a boss fight, than just shrugging my shoulders and saying “OK another one down, on we go yawn”
I can understand new player frustration too, but seriously I don’t think just making the first one or two bosses easier is the right way to go - as others have said here, there is a lot of resource online for the game, a lot of experienced players with some good tips and advice, and that can often help if you feel you are hitting a brick wall. If there were something OP in the campaign that was preventing progress, I would agree it may need to be looked at, but we are talking about end game now, and I do think that most players want to be stretched a little by that stage.
I think a lot of issues and concerns like this may well disappear once Multiplayer is dropped in, and people can buddy up. I remember also failing at the firt MoF boss several times, and I hadn’t realised for the first couple of attempts what I had to do FIRST, until I realised I had already seen similar structures in the campaign earlier 
TL;DR The Devs have done amazingly well with this game, everything feels pretty much just right, the balance is great, there doesnt seem to be any one class that is overpowered, and the bosses can sometimes be a pita and take a few attempts at, but overall I think the difficulty is sitting nicely dead centre 
Stay safe
Keys
no, the fights aren’t too difficult in my opinion.
You want a bit of a challenge otherwise its just another walking lump of exp and items.
Bosses are always hardest the first time you come across them but soon enough they’ll be easy, that said this is an ARPG and shouldnt go too far down the line of complicated, multi-phase bosses that require specific builds or combinations (for when there is MP) and I think all the content should be casual friendly in the end.
This is a hacknslash ARPG not an MMO raid afterall.
and @Llama8 i’ve seen you play this game, you still stand in crap a lot 
but glad you learnt somethings after years of me badgering you in raids!
Some of it had to sink in… If I’m not moving out of the way of stuff, it’s because it’s not dangerous enough to require moving out the way of.
and in terms of mechanics i think thats about the right point - after you know a fight and have the right build you can stand and face tank it a bit but that first time you come across a boss you’re not likely to do that.
It also depends on the character and build you’re running. Mechanics should make a fight different from just trash but not stop normal players from enjoying the game and seeing the content.
Lets not see content locked behind “hard mode” fights
Blockquote Llama’s totally non-hipster Terror Mace Flurry Bladedancer
Nice.
Also, to chime in. I am a pretty low skill player myself and have found the damage mechanics for players to be so generous I have a lot of wiggle room with defense stats. With some of these Lich builds out there you can really tank a lot of damage to the face. I have a much harder time in PoE.
Its interesting this topic came up, I havent played LE in a while and havent seen any of the recent bosses and currently playing PoE - they just released a new boss and one of the mechanics is a memory game to step on tiles in the right order and if you screw up you basically die extremely fast
In the final phase of fight you have to do the memory game while rotating laser beams spin around and if you get hit you take damage and lose all form of recovery for 10 seconds, while there is also potentially patches of degen on the ground that slow you, she does the memory game multiple times in the fight - took me about 5 tries to get better at it - its actually stupid and has no place in an aRPG but you just get over it and learn to win but I am the type of person who isnt going to be defeated by a game boss by giving up
The bosses in LE are easily able to be countered with certain defences, most you can just life steal through all their shit. I only had an issue Rahyeh on my first 2 fights as I didnt realise he did so much damage and tried to just tank it
I disagree it being mechanically too difficult however I feel like the campaign doesn’t do a good enough job to teach you.
Now i am all in for reducing the difficulty of normal timelines if people struggle with it but empowered should not be reduced at all unless new difficulty is added that is a lot harder than current empowered timelines.
Great content guys,
this might be my favorite discussion of recent times.
Big thank you to all the player coming in and expressing their feeling, and being honest about stuff.
Dying in an aRPG is part of the learning curve and from what i gathered even some of the players here, that are admittedly on the “lower skill end”, do find it ok.
I think one of the most important points is, that the boss fights are very well telegrapohed and usually you will see, from what you died.
Even if you are not fast enough or don’t know how to react to stuff, when you are encountering it on the fly, the first time fighting the boss.
You learned something and will know 1 more thing, when fighting the best, the next time.
Some players mentioned, it feels very punishing, after dying to a boss, that their echo progress is resetted so far, that they can’t do the boss immediately.
I think this is also one lever EHG could change, to make the difficulty gradually increase.
If the amount of echoes, that you lose, when dying would start lower and ramp up from timeline to timeline to timeline, this could be a way to make the game feel less punishing at the start of a players journey.
Currently you lose 2-4 echoes. With my idea i was more talkign about losing 1-3 echoes in the very early timelines (maybe the first 3-4 timelines). Then slowly increasing to 2-4 echoes.
And for the later timelines it could be maybe even 3-5.
And when it comes to empowered timelines, this could be ramped up even more.
This would not the difficulty directly, of the boss fights, but would still contribute to the overall difficulty of the game.
I like this idea a lot but feel 4 should probably be the max otherwise the loss of progression might be enough to make some players give up. Maybe I’m unlucky but I always seem to lose 4 echoes and I die to the bosses a lot so it does become a little frustrating. You can put me in the group that doesn’t learn mechanics well and after a few deaths I still haven’t learnt them yet.
I’m probably 50/50 on the question of whether LE is too mechanically difficult. It really depends on what build you are playing and what boss you are fighting. As the game develops more and becomes more balanced I’m sure things will even out.
You the amount of echoes scales, with how deep you are in the echo.
My numbers are probably not 100% accurate, but if you are just like 3-5 echoes in the timeline you only lose 2 echoes and when you are like 6-10 echoes in you lose 3.
And usualy by the time you can encoutner the 2nd quest echo or later the boss(around 10+) you will lose 4 echoes all the time.
It’s not random.
I think having a gradual increase of the echoes you lose within a timeline is also a good thing.
But yeah my initial suggestion was more leaning towards timelines as a whole.
This isn’t really helpful to the discussion and you need to understand that the game has to work for players of differing skill levels. Lots of seasoned players have died to the bosses and I’m sure they wouldn’t call it a baby mode snore fest the first time they encountered them. Doing the new bosses on an existing level 100 character is not the same as a new player doing them for the first time whilst levelling up.
Some of the bosses are very easy to learn the mechanics but others are not so obvious without a few tries at them.
Bosses are always hardest the first time you come across them but soon enough they’ll be easy, that said this is an ARPG and shouldnt go too far down the line of complicated, multi-phase bosses that require specific builds or combinations (for when there is MP) and I think all the content should be casual friendly in the end.
This is a hacknslash ARPG not an MMO raid afterall.
You are right, however I think there is a real place for taking influence from MMO raids and especially WoW mythic+. I often bring this up because I think it has a lot of potential. As someone who enjoys hard (and group based) boss fights, I don’t really think any game beats WoW. I would still be playing it if they didn’t have such terrible design decisions around dailies and gated content - I want to play the game, not work a second job to be able to do so.
My favourite content was by far pushing M+ as high as possible, and if you think about it, that is a very ARPG influenced game mode. Repeating dungeons, packs of trash mobs, increasing difficulty scaling and modifying affixes with interspersed boss fights.
Obviously there is a balance to achieve between keeping the identity of Last Epoch and ARPGs, but to limit something just on that fact could really be missing out on some unique content.
I think everything should be casual friendly at the normal difficulty setting, but there also need to be options for people to scale harder content available. Additional mechanics are one of the best ways imo, as well as adding damage/health. Just damage/health is an artificial difficulty increase though.
we also need to see what MP will bring to the game, having things simple for single player but a harder fight in MP could also be a real possibility. The game is going to have to have some scaling for MP so why not have the boss fights being that bit tricker to compensate for the number of players.
I’m just not a fan of the game or story not being available to casual players because the end boss is just too hard for casual players. Personally I really enjoy hard boss mechanic fights but thats because i’ve got a lot of background in MMO raiding, like you. But casual players are also important and shouldnt feel blocked out or frustrated.