(Obviously having both for free and not having EHG go back on their word would be best, but that is besides the point)
I saw quite a few people arguing that paywalling a class is going to be pay-to-win. I’m wondering if that’s different from paywalling endgame content, purely in terms of pay-to-win.
A new class might (or likely will) be stronger than existing ones but an expansion would likely provide expanded endgame with new exclusive items (stuff like T8 affixes, Uber Aberroth’s drops or maybe even the Temporal Sanctum with the whole legendary crafting mechanic). Wouldn’t that likely be more pay-to-win? Obviously you can’t make a blanket statement that one is always more pay-to-win than the other.
And that’s if we take pay-to-win as “getting to some existing endgoal faster”. If that endgoal was “beat the expansion’s boss”, then it’s impossible to do without paying (which you could argue is the most extreme form of pay-to-win, or you could argue it’s not that anymore and something different entirely).
I don’t think there’s a clear cut answer, I’m just curious what people think.
(Also note that this is NOT about whether you prefer the class be free because you enjoy playing different classes or whether you prefer the endgame be free because you enjoy that more)
It is, because what a paid expansion does is split the playerbase. Players with the expansion play on one realm, players without it play on a different one.
So with a paid expansion, everyone is on an equal footing in their respective realms.
With a paid class, someone will eventually be able to pay and have the upper hand on players on that same realm.
Not necessarily. You could have everyone have the same installed data but obviously if you don’t buy the expansion you don’t get to enter the new areas, though this would require a change in how LE works vis-a-vis porting to party members to stop a non-paying person porting to a party member in the new zone nor would they be able to equip any new items that dropped (I think TQ1 does this with their new expansions, you can have the new item bases drop you just can’t equip them).
You could even have the expansion be “p2w” by increasing the skill/passive/level cap such that people that bought it have more stats. Granted this would mainly be an issue if everyone played together, but would content creators want to make non-expansion content if the same character in the expansion could push further/be more tanky/etc?
First off I don’t think either one is true pay 2 win. I think the term pay 2 win got massively watered down over the last few years.
But it always depends on the exact implementation or details, which we don’t have yet.
In my opinion free expansion and paid class is better than paid expansion and free class.
The expansion most likely will have new loot, new areas, new methods of farming etc. Not having access to that denies parts of the core game.
Classes are auxiliary and not part of the core game. Especially when these paradox classes will be supposed to be experimental and not quite like a regular class. I could see them having vastly different ways of creating/unlocking like maybe you can’t even start with these on season start, but need to unlock them. Or they have some other mechanics going on that are not like the other classes.
Depending on how different and experimental they are they are most definitely not part of the core game. They will have their own builds etc. and I do understand that people can see them as part of the core gameplay, but I think it would be way worse if the new expansion brings a new unique, that would be locked behind the expansion (if that isn’t free) and thus denying new builds for your existing characters.
So overall, while I don’t love the idea of premium content I think as long as the free content that is coming alongside the paid content is enough in quantity and quality some extra premium content is not that bad.
may eventually be able to have the upper hand. It’s far from a certainty as this game will always have multiple classes and builds at the top of the farming meta.
I’m going off from what Judd said (that he didn’t want to split the playerbase) and from the fact that usually server-based games (TQ1 or GD aren’t server based) there is a clear tendency to create separate realms for the playerbase where players with the expansion don’t interact with those without it.
There are exceptions to this, obviously, but in games that have some competitive measure this is usually the case.
A little, yes. It expanded to include P2WF, or pay to win faster. This is something that mobile games made popular, where you want to construct/farm/whatever and it takes 24h but you can pay for it to be instant.
You can simply wait and still “win”, it just takes massively longer. Especially because it’s usually stretched to the limit to incentivize you to buy the upgrades and most sane people would quit before that.
I don’t think a paid class would be similar to what we see in Diablo Immortal, where there are upgrades that you simply can’t get if you don’t pay. That is pure P2W.
But it’s still morally iffy.
Considering EHG’s track record on balancing the new classes it introduces, I’d say that’s a fair assumption.
Also, it can’t be underpowered, otherwise no one will want to buy it.
But, more importantly, over the lifetime of the game it will be extremely hard to keep it from getting OP at some point or another. It’s something they will have to juggle forever once it’s introduced.
If Sentinel being OP makes players cry out against the imbalance of the game, imagine when a paid class becomes OP. And I don’t think any game company in the world could manage a constantly shifting environment like a seasonal model and not have the class be OP at some point.
IMO, if you’re getting a customer to buy a thing in a game you can’t make it “experimental” 'cause if you nerf it you open yourself up to a load of complaints about it being a bait & switch or P2W (you know all those promises they made about not paying for power?). But if you release it underpowered & buff it you won’t get as many sales.
Yeah, I know, but there are ways around both of those, with their own issues, obviously.
the key is if the paid classes are the only OP ones for MG. I simply don’t think that is likely. Torchlight Infinite sells a new class every season and while they are guaranteed to be strong, they really aren’t stronger than the top tier free ones.
I just don’t think the paid classes will be P2W. Because all it takes is one free class to be just as strong.
Sure, it’s possible they can pull it off. But the odds are against them:
-Added Warlock and Falconer, those became the most OP masteries in the game (with Falconer being OP for a long time).
-Reworked Pally, became the most OP mastery.
-Reworked Beastmaster, became the most OP mastery.
Their track record on introducing new classes or rebalancing them isn’t exactly encouraging in this regard.
To be clear, I hope they do manage to pull it off. I want EHG to succeed. I’ve always been one of their most staunch defenders. I’ve just been getting a lot of prompts lately saying “Press X to doubt”.
Sentinel wasn’t the only OP mastery in Season 2. It was just the most OP. And it was the one dominating leaderboards where almost half were one form of it.
If the most OP class is paid then it’s P2W. Because it’s stronger than everything else and you can get further and faster than everyone else.
It’s a very tricky line to navigate not letting those classes become the most OP so players don’t cry P2W and not letting them be trash so players don’t cry scam. And they’ll have to maintain it for all future seasons and for all paid classes they eventually add.
Odds aren’t in their favour that they’ll manage that, despite their good intentions, based on the past.
