If it wasn't clear enough to EHG

General
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It was about EHG still being in EA, not the other not being in EA… and actually upholding it. Seasonal content (which is… per season, hence at least every 4 months) has simply been the norm in the genre.

As mentioned, not following that needs them to speak up, not the other way around.

You’re saying the exact same thing as me :stuck_out_tongue: LE was not under the pressure of following it in EA… but got into the pressure of it starting 1.0… and simply dropped the ball hard.

Hence why I say they didn’t follow the industry standard.

Oh, that also wasn’t about the delay here! It was about the industry standard of upkeeping 3-4 months release schedules.

I’m not mad that they delayed, yes… miffed… but nothing else. I understand the decision there fully.

The stuff before is not something which should be simply waved off on the other hand :stuck_out_tongue:

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That’s how the name started, but that doesn’t always uphold anymore. The meaning has changed. These days it just means it’s periodic, even if that period is larger. As can be seen by the fact that TV shows are seasonal (they have seasons) but they only release usually once a year, some even further away. Some shows like Stranger Things even take years between each season.

As for games, yes, the norm has been 3-4 months. But as we’ve seen, norms change. GGG has been trying to extend their seasons for some time, which only makes sense, especially since their leagues have had increasingly more complex mechanics (it’s been a long way since only adding strongboxes in a league to a town building one).

That’s not to say players aren’t expecting one every 3-4 months. Just that those norms have started to shift a little lately with the added complexity of new seasonal mechanics and I expect they will shift a little more now that we have more ARPGs competing when we didn’t have any competition before (D3 and PoE didn’t really compete, since they targetted opposite playerbases).

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Ok, I get what you’re saying now.

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I’m not with you here. I simply don’t give a shit because I know that EHG is not making money if people aren’t buying things. If they aren’t releasing frequently, there isn’t anything new to play, and that will have the knock-on effect of players wondering whether the game is going to be around, which will depress mtx sales. They already have a pressing incentive to release good, frequent patches; because it makes them money.

There is zero need for me to chastise them about their release schedule. They are well aware in a way I cannot imagine.

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I mean… seemingly it isn’t enough incentive for them given how underdeveloped the MTX store still is (and seemingly no focus on it, understandable since they’re behind with nigh everything).

And since it’s not only affecting them as devs (which is their own thing to deal with, and only for me a customer a good thing to understand of ‘why things happen’) but also me directly as a customer… well… I’ll definitely speak up about it :stuck_out_tongue:

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Btw thats not true. Weve Had to two updates and also a graphical overhaul. Sure they promised more sooner. But they are a small studio. Some understanding would be nice.

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I’m %100 in favor of anyone saying what’s on their mind. Including me saying, “nah, disagree”.

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1.0 dropped towards the end of February 2024. 1.2 will drop in the middle of April 2025.

That’s 1 ‘major’ update in 6 months.
To mind that specifically… one was a expansion of the existing end-game content together with a - very - small extra mechanic in the game. The extra mechanic was a viable size for a company freshly releasing a 1.0 product. Sadly… the 1.0 of LE is sub-par and has massive amounts of catch-up to do. Hence perception is utterly skewed (and rightly so).

Has LE been released in a at least half-way polished state, meaning… class-balance being somewhat ‘ok’, their factions not being borderline broken (at least MG, CoF simply has some ‘dubious’ design aspects and oversights) as well as their campaign being in a finished state (which could be expanded on later) then the whole situation wouldn’t even exist.

We just need to look over to Torchlight Infinite, their game is lower quality when it comes to the design of their core systems (they have a bad urge for p2w there) but it is a ‘solid’ release and has stayed ‘solid’ since it came out. Gameplay wise it’s a much more ‘fluid’ experience then LE simply… while LE offers a vastly higher potential of what it ‘could be’ but sadly is not yet. People are staying long-term for wishes and dreams still, the campaign being finished, the classes being polished, the mechanics being properly polished, the UI being refurbished and much much more. It’s just construction site after construction site after another construction site.

And:

They are not a small company, EHG is over 100 people strong. That’s a mid-sized to large company in the gaming sector nowadays, it’s leaning towards becoming ‘AAA’ even. Barely any other company can show such a sizeable crew.

And even if it were true it would not be a thing which has to do with the company size.
Your release having a ‘polished feel’ or actively being ‘finished’ rather then a glorified beta is a distinct difference. And that’s the reason for the bad reception.
We don’t know why EHG released prematurely… but they did. And they got to deal with the results. Financial issues? Sure, important to lean into the hype to fund the project! But they didn’t build up the needed momentum coming from the extreme monetary influx 1.0 provided. Instead of the expected sector norm of 3-4 months they dropped the ball after realizing that doing a content drop like early PoE did is not sufficient if your foundation isn’t solid. And right after realizing that with 1.1 they had to step back and rework their whole approach.

The problem is… pre 1.0 that’s something which was already visible as with the announcement of 1.0 people got kinda curious about the state of the game. ‘Hey… we have missing mastery classes… we have missing skills… we have missing campaign… what about that?’. People were lenient since EHG provided overall quality production long-term in their beta… in a beta pace which was viable.
Though… the expectation obviously for a release is ‘Now all the kinks have been worked out, the product has a solid foundation and the content-pipeline is properly prepared’. But… that didn’t happen.

As an example what I mean with that:

I’m a carpenter. Imagine you order a large centerpiece of a wardrobe for your bedroom. A massive piece and I say ‘yes, I’ll design this and put it in’ then you’ll be happy at the beginning. I also send you information about it going along. The pace isn’t the quickest but it’s ‘there’ and shows solid steady progress.
Now one day I say ‘ok, next week I’ll bring it over and put it up!’ you’ll be excited for sure, right? But… kinda a lot of the process wasn’t told to you. You heard about the frame being there, the sliding doors… but you’ve only got information about half the inside of it being finished. Was I faster? Did I hold out for a nice surprise?
But then the day comes, I come over, put it up, one side looks solid, some small issues here and there which are simple kinks I’m supposed to work out, nothing major. But… the other half? That’s kinda not there.
You’ll rightfully ask ‘but what about it?’ and when I answer ‘don’t worry, it’ll come!’ it might even ease your mind for a moment.
But a month later I started working on a bedside table, 2 of your drawers are still missing, you got no place for your socks and underwear, your clothes rail is missing completely so you have to fold everything and stack it on a nearly empty other half on the bottom instead and I still have not even given you a deadline of when that’ll happen!

Now you’ve got a crooked and bend and unsavory end-product when it was supposed to be ‘finished’ and ready. With the option to improve on it after and expand to the whole room but instead you got half-finished pieces of furniture instead which still function but are not at all enjoyable and up to par.
Might’ve been easier, cheaper and actually better to buy from IKEA! It’s mediocre in design and end-result and everyone has it… but at least it would be solid and you would’ve gotten the specific things you’re eagerly waiting for but still haven’t arrived months after your wardrobe is set up… and every time you use it you’re reminded of what an utter eye-sore it now is, never stopping to showcase ‘Yeah, I could be so much more’ but sadly it isn’t finished.

Had I told you ‘it’ll take 3 more months’ you would’ve likely be fine, miffed… but fine… but either I mismanaged completely or I needed the money to keep producing it since my company has only you as a customer currently.

Now tell me… would you be happy with me as your carpenter? Should I be happy about providing my services in such a way? I would say in both instances ‘no’ as it’s obvious something went awry.

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There is a big difference, though. In your example, you can’t really use it for much. As you said:

But LE, as it is right now, is still a lot of fun to play. It can certainly get a lot better, and it will, but as it is, my money was already well spent, including the supporter packs I paid for it.
With no other changes, I would still play LE for years to come. And I still have fun and have my money’s worth out of it. And more.

Personally, I enjoy LE a lot more than I ever did PoE. Or even GD. Only LoD beats it for me.
So it’s not something you can’t really use like your example. Far from it.

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I mean… it still fulfills the function, but you definitely didn’t get what you expected :stuck_out_tongue: You can store your clothes, it does all you need it to do… it just does it worse then it should… and doesn’t change it being unfinished.

And yeah, it’s a entertainment piece, not a functional piece, hence the perception is defintiely different, but the core aspect of the example has hopefully come through.

If you’ve bought into the game post release after informing yourself… sure, then it’s all fine.
Anyone supporting before 0.9 though should be mighty pissed on the other hand, because the baseline expectations weren’t fulfilled.

Like the difference between me making this oddly half-done piece of furniture and someone taking an interest in it after I display it. Versus me declaring ‘I’ll make this thing’ and someone taking interest only to get… well… not that.

To make it clear… it’s solely the ‘release state’ which is under flak here, I still think that EHG - over time - will make their product a good one, with more polish hopefully as well. But they get rightful complaints as there is a disparity as to what they call their product (released) via what it actually is (a beta still). Kinda the opposite from the perma-beta games which use that term as an excuse to not adjust stuff into a ‘solid’ state from the non-stop ‘floating design’ which I don’t have any better words for currently.

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My god, there are a lot of circle-jerking people here self-soothing that they represent “the people”.

Sane, balanced human beings are disapointed for, and even with, EHG but the hyperbole and the diatribes are just insane. There are multiple people in the thread that have written more words on the topic than your average university essay, but it is just the same (less than a) handful of people repeating the same things.

You’re disappointed, it’s noted, and you’ve well and truly said what you think. Nothing you write now changes anything; don’t you have some sort of life to go live? EHG has explained why they delayed, and the general feel of the main thread on the topic seems to be “that sucks, but oh well”. Are you posting over and over in the hopes that it will seem like more of a problem than it is?

The OP said it himself:

People haven’t been more critical of this fact, despite his feeling that they should be, because it’s just not that big of an issue.

It is a natural response of human beings to try and make the world align with their internal view of what it should be, and explain away evidence to the contrary, but ultimately that evidence is there for all to see. LE will be just fine, nobody will care about the delay once it releases, and people’s opinion of the game will be informed almost entirely by the most recent experience they’ve had of it.

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It actually is.
But over the last decade or so customers have been steadily desinsitized about being provided products which are unfinished when released, sub-par, broken, whatever else.

That’s the major reason as to why backlash is as little as it is, and that’s not a good situation for gaming to be in. It leads to less effort from developers (and less suceeding products since unique and risky things are decentivized this way) and a worse experience for customers. A loose-loose situation long-term.

Very much so! Absolutely agreed.
Which is also why I stated that 1.2 is such a important release for EHG. It was well received in 1.0, people didn’t care all too much about 1.1 and it’s been a darn long time since then. There’s simply too much competition around to keep a live-service game in mind which takes a long time to release little. Sure, people will come back… but it’s not the ‘yeah, in 2 weeks a new cycle will release!’ hype which follows together with streamers but rather a ‘Oh right, haven’t checked this out for a long while, maybe enough changed to make it worthwhile.’ direction.

I’ve stated it more then once as you’ve already said, and I need to seemingly state it again. LE is not a Singleplayer game… or a classic Multiplayer one, it’s a live-service and hence needs to sustain itself accordingly. MTX is lackluster still, core content not polished at all and we haven’t seen EHG doing anything actually impactful since 1.0. They don’t have franchise power and a massive PR campaign behind them either, so it’s not something which will be able to sustain them long-term.
We’ll see it represented at the release-date player numbers simply. It it’s not going towards at least 50k then it’s a bad sign and it’ll be known just how damaging their ‘off-time’ was.

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Surely it’s 2 updates/seasons/whatever in ~13 months? Or are you not counting season 2 because reasons? What do you consider 1.1/Harbingers of Ruin (July 24)? If you’re starting the clock with 1.0 (22st Feb 24) then we had 1.1 in July 24 & 1.2 in early April 25. To me, that’s 2 updates.

Some people consuder GGG small. :person_shrugging:t3:

Yeah, so compared to back in the day, it’s not that big of a deal. Things change with time.

Yeah, that’s fair, though it’s also assuming a negative viewpoint (fuck the players) by developers.

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I do understand what you’re saying, but I think it depends on the type of player. For me, LE doesn’t feel unfinished. Granted, I don’t care about the story (nor do I care about it in any ARPG, never paying attention more than once, at most) so it doesn’t bother me if there are chapters missing. And I don’t play MG, so it doesn’t bother me that it’s not functioning properly yet either.

Mostly, the gameplay is fun for me. And it’s very clearly targetted towards the same type of player I am. Or was, anyway. I expect Season 2 will be less so. But I still prefer a game that gives me fun gameplay, even if it’s still missing stuff, than a finished/polished game that doesn’t.

I’m actually in between. I bought the game about 6 months before release, when it was already into 0.9.2. Still no regrets and got my money out of it already.

I think we can rule that out for EHG, though. Everything they’ve shown over the years shows that they care about the players and that they’re actually working hard for LE to succeed. They might not get everything right, but no one can accuse them of phoning it in or not caring about the community.

It’s mostly because they only recently (1 year ago) got a bunch more people, but mostly because they’re not yet experienced enough to be considered a big studio.
Just like Larian was still considered a small/indie studio before releasing BG3, despite having around 100 people on the team as well, and even several successful games.

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1 in 6 is 2 in 12, yes. With leeway to ignore the odd 13th :stuck_out_tongue:

Yeah, and some people consider the largest portion at an american fast food joint also ‘small’ :stuck_out_tongue:

Very true and agreed!
Not every change is positive though. Desensitizing customers by making them ‘grow tired’ of the same issues over time is not improving a condition, it’s actively worsening it.

Not even, simply… having become ‘the norm’ and hence people stopped actively thinking about it, including developers.
Which is why I’m actively making it known since I deem it a worthwhile thing to remember.

Heavily agreed there as well!
I’m also not directly talking about ‘polished gameplay itself’ but rather the ‘feel’ of it. For example ‘Palworld’ is a fairly ‘jank’ game with loads of bugs. But it’s also loads of fun and feels ‘complete’. This feeling of something being ‘complete’ but then further on expanded is quite important for a decent amount of people.

And also, I tend to speak from the position of sizeable groups even if I’m not actively a part of them (in this case I am, as much as I’m a MG player). Kinda the ‘devil’s advocate’ position.

Oh, absolutely! Though never become complacent with the status quo… otherwise it tends to be forgotten and people are surprised when they look back and suddenly can say ‘Yeah… back then they still did…’.

I’ll throw out Blizzard as a prime example at any day for that. And the positive example of No Man’s Sky as the counter, it can go both ways.

Yeah, and that’s a mismanagement issue plainly spoken.
A very understandable one and very easy to fall into… but also a very dangerous one. ‘Going beyond their means’ simply. Not ready for the new situation which should’ve been prepared for.

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They announced the big changes an the need for time 9 months ago. If people now make a fuzz about 14 days I realy hope they never face real troubble like… rain… or headwind. To me waiting a fraction of time longer isn’t a biggy when I look at it objectively.

Yeah if people took vacation days and everything changed and they wasted this time it’s a sad thing just to throw out an example why people could be mildly pissed.

Making a fuzz about a fraction of more time to wait they can’t be helped so it actualy isn’t at least from my personal point of view.

Sure to everyone their own and let people go apeshit about it if they want more power to them buuuuut this looks realy delulu to me.

As a final note… sure it’s bad if products that should’ve had another year of betatesting release to early and offer a bad experience but there are some redemption arcs worth mentioning like NoMansSky or FF XIV. I hope EHG made good use of the time they had and finaly repaired their flawed foundation so they can build upon it without another month long period of repairing stuff.

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