I have no expectations for the upcoming season of Last Epoch

The number of D4 which we’re provided is skewed. What SteamDB shows is the concurrent currently online playercount.
What Blizzard provides is total individual logins (If unique logins or simply login presses is also not declared) instead. It’s a basic way for companies to buff their numbers and make them look bigger then they actually are.

Basically what you need to do is take the peak concurrent playercount of a day in a game and multiply it by ~5 to the the individual player count for the day.
Worse so if it’s login presses simply, then it’s a little bit higher even.

Agreed, and that’s a major problem for LE. Market positioning of EHG is bad, they didn’t know which position to take, tried to slip into the position of ‘PoE but a bit more casual’ and dropped the ball according to that position simply, because it’s a brutal one, a very brutal one to be in.

You’re completely right that D4 is not competing for the same people, neither is Grim Dawn (which is a off-season game for many), TL:I (Which focuses primarily on mobile but actually provides a good overall game surprisingly), Undecember (which just disgruntled all player and has none hence :stuck_out_tongue: ) or even PoE 2 (which is competing for PoE player but those enjoying a alternative style simply while pulling in newcomers because of less complexity, directly what LE tried to do).

:joy:

It’s because EHG shoved themselves in the place they did. They always were compared to PoE while developing and they never ensured to detach themselves… so now they’re in a direct competition with em.

Individuals or concurrent online players?
Because GGG also has millions of players in Europe. And even TL:I has hundreds of thousands.

Individual players is a surprisingly awful metric of success… because those individuals could play once a month… or 8 hours per day, and respectively be spending accordingly as play-time correlates - to a degree - with spending.

Yes, it’s a more casual game, which has a different target audience. The major reason why a monolith like Diablo functions despite dropping the ball so majorly… no other developer provided a extensive halfway decent looking casual long-term ARPG. While PoE provides the complete other side of the scale, high engagement long-term intense progression.

They’re polar opposites of the same genre, which makes both extremely important to exist… or rather which opens the gate for a developer to provide a game ‘similarly casual but content dense as D4’… which isn’t overly hard to achieve actually as the variety of content in D4 is highly inflated by repetitive use of assets. Still a large project to make something similar but possible at least.
But any competition with PoE without a decade long catch-up setup? Nigh impossible because of the sheer content density.

You also don’t compete with the playstyle of Dwarf Fortress in city builders or fail, dozens tried, all failed. You use another way of engagement instead like Rimworld, Timberborn, Frostpunk or whatever else is out there currently and working.

That is a fallacy actually. GGG knows very well that PoE 1 and PoE 2 have a different customer base. A large portion of non-streamers don’t play both, they focus on one. And despite the existence of each other the both fare more then well.

Unless player numbers drop substantially (below 20k peak or so) it’s a hefty incentive business wise to upkeep their model as it is currently.

They tried to make both teams work on the respective other game for the beginning, it backfired greatly.
Since then they’ve returned all the developers to PoE 1 as it was before, without cross-development being in the focus.

That’s the newest situation we know of.

There were bad signs shown but they backpedaled properly, kudos to them. The future will show if it upholds.
Also size-wise the PoE 1 community gets a surprisingly large amount of content despite overlapping releases with PoE 2. If the focus were on PoE 2 so heavily then PoE 1 wouldn’t get the Legend of Phrexia event which is balance-wise completely overhauled from the last time. While repeated content it’s still a massive balancing amount which we’ve seen less of in over a year from EHG comparatively. That alone shows the sheer scale of resources being used in PoE 1 still.

They’re trying the same business model as ‘Jagex’ does with Runescape. It’s a functioning one where one struggling and badly managed game can sustain long-term because of the other, allowing individual risks to be taken without putting everything into a single card.

It’s a winning model unlike what AAA companies with their ‘all in’ approach comparably does, nigh universally failing because of it.

He was talking about whether D4 or PoE2 has more players, so I assume concurrent. He basically stated that D4 has way more active players than all the others combined.

Why would it be a fallacy? Once both games are stable (meaning PoE2 is “finished” and left EA) then presumably they will both have teams of similar size working on expansions/new seasons.

If it costs the same to keep PoE1 going as it costs for PoE2 and PoE2 generates 10x more revenue, then it’s only logical to downsize the PoE1 team. Or more likely migrate them to PoE2 and invest more in that game instead.

Sure, but given my previous point above, it makes more sense to start dropping PoE1 and use PoE2’s success to sustain the development of something new. Maybe even in a different genre.

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Yeah… but Blizzard doesn’t provide ‘concurrent’ numbers.
That’s the issue.

They’re really good in showing the right numbers and making us draw the wrong conclusions. Very good PR actually… just at a place where it shouldn’t happen.

Yes, and there the fallacy begins. A very interesting one actually:

Given we take revenue as a metric rather then growth/regression in this case (which many companies do actually surprisingly) being taken into is as well (both are important) then we can have both products growing but one outperforming substantially.

I’ll relate over to Jagex and OSRS. It was released in 2013 and was substancially outperformed but grew steadily until overtaking Runescape 3 in 2019.

Had Jagex solely taken into consideration the hard factual numbers then in this case they would’ve had to keep the team size relative. But instead they grew from 3-4 people to over 100 despite being the less reliable product for income. Nowadays Jagex is over 500 people large… despite a lack of growth for RS3, but substantial investment into reworks despite stagnation comparatively went into it. Which caused a gradual recovery by now.

So, the fallacy here is that if they had follow the logic of ‘this does make us more money’ and accordingly catered the growth of their team to it then neither OSRS would have overtaken RS 3 by now… nor would they had the total income we see nowadays… and also the chance for RS 3 to be ‘fixed’ to a degree wouldn’t have happened as it came directly from pressure of comparison between OSRS and RS 3.
Both games despite showing distinctly different growth and revenue to each other which wasn’t directly correlated to team-size changes provided a combined environment making it even possible.

So keeping the OSRS team small because of respective income would’ve been a fallacy as it’s based on a ‘mistaken belief’ and ‘unsound arguments’. Back then rampant microtransaction was seen as the winning metric, and since that belief has been debunked for long-term products as has been shown by OSRS’ barely (comparatively) monetized system.
The argument was ‘individual income from whales outperforms long-term broad-scaled income’. It’s actually a really good example of short-term versus long-term business mentality all inside the same company, providing a unique environment to showcase the difference.

If we follow the same line for PoE 1 and 2 then despite higher player numbers for PoE 2 it would not be a sound decision to reduce development for PoE 1. As currently we’re still in the ‘short-term’ segment. A ‘heated market’ where many individuals which haven’t engaged in the first now play the second. This is expected to ‘cool down’ over time, with individual investment and playercount dropping. Specifically since PoE 2 is prone to repeat the rampant speed-up of gameplay as PoE 1 underwent as GGG hasn’t found a method to avoid that yet with further content density. It’s already happening since 0.1 visibly after all and garners backlash even.

If they uphold both PoE 1 and PoE 2 then the respective learning from the difference between them can improve each other on the other hand, something which won’t be visible if one of both projects gets downsized even when underperforming in either growth or respective revenue.

Branching out is the next potential point, yes. But reduction of former products isn’t. It’s what killed several studios in the last year even.

Redfall with Arkana Studios. Branching into looter-shooter rather then immersive sims.
Artifact from Valve, which caused that sub-studio to be dismantled entirely because of the severe monetization without substance.
‘The Last of us’ online from Naughty Dogs, which led to severe layoffs.

All of them branched into new segments without proper evaluation of the market space they wanted to get into. Be it any form of hyped gameplay loop which had been overdone endlessly… like a looter shooter… or going into live-service segments like Artifact and Last of us Online without understanding what that means.

I can only go by 2 facts:
1- Ghazzy implied inside knowledge and that D4 had way more players than every other ARPG combined.
2- Stream viewers are a LOT higher for D4 streams than for any of the other ARPGs.

While you can doubt 1, you can’t doubt 2 because that is measurable public data and it does give credence to Ghazzy’s claim.

So I have no doubts that D4 does have way more players, both active and concurrent, than even PoE2. Even after all the issues it had over the last couple of years. And especially because the latest season seems to have been quite a success among all players.

The problem is that PoE1 isn’t growing anymore. Their most successful league was a year and a half ago (before PoE2) and the latest 2 legaues (the only ones so far that are concurrent with PoE2) fell quite short of that.

And PoE2 is still in EA. Once they leave EA and it becomes free, we can expect another massive surge of players.

Maybe the first… but the second?
And even for the first I think Ghazzy fell into the common misconception between concurrent and individual playercount.

Right this moment for example D4 has less then 1k people and PoE 2 has over 3k while PoE 1 has over 6k.
Even if we remove PoE 1 from the premise because of the update tomorrow and hence people doing speedrun streams beforehand it’s still over 3k for PoE 2 alone.

I actually don’t know any time when peak viewership for D4 has gone beyond PoE ones since… a long long while now. Even during releases barely.

Actually to showcase it:
https://twitchtracker.com/games/515024
https://twitchtracker.com/games/29307

I would say D4 is very worse off. Not even a comparison. It’s like a toddler against a giant.

Yeah, a short-term ‘hiccup’.
We gotta take into consideration what happened.
They screwed up entirely with putting all devs onto PoE 2 and neglecting PoE 1, that lost a substantial amount of players.

Also some players traversed over to PoE 2 as a main game instead of PoE 1. It takes up a similar space after all.

But even if we only take the last 2 releases of PoE 1 in comparison again we have a ‘after hiccup reduction’ which is substantial, and then the following League a 6k peak improvement in playercount actually.

So no… I don’t think you’ve drawn the right conclusions there at all.

If you would draw the conclusion of ‘PoE regresses because a new game taking up the similar space’ is there then that’s a clear-cut fallacy to act as you state. False premises. It’s a singular tip and hence the new ‘baseline’ from which we need to work from, the future is what’s important from there, and usually you take 3 Leagues to show the trend properly.

And if we draw the conclussion of ‘PoE regresses because they removed development in favor of PoE 2’ then it would be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Don’t work on it so people go away over time. Obviously.

To compare it we need a situation of ‘both games are worked on simultaneously’ for a while and then you can state it again.

What I think will happen is gradual recovery of PoE 1 and regression of PoE 2 before PoE 2 might or might not grow… while PoE 1 at least stays constant unless they screw up again. PoE 2 is still a wildcard, highly unfinished and treated accordingly. The second it releases the story is a entirely different one.

Don’t fall into the same perception pit as many did with the LE release… it went downhill from there as expectations had a completely different base standard.

I got it now. You are right, it’s reasonable for GGG to focus more on poe2 and hope the Poe 1 base migrate to poe2.

I also agree many D4 players do not care about PoE2. There are overlap players for sure, but I think a huge chunk do not play Poe 2.

My point, which I have made since EA, is that there is too much overlap between the target audience of Poe|2 and LE, and the target audience by large prefer poe|2. Either LE competes with GGG PoE2 , and convince enough arpg fans to pick LE, or play LE as off season game, which seems unlikely at the moment. Or the better alternative is to be able to attract non Poe 2 players by offer something special/ difference. .

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