I have no expectations for the upcoming season of Last Epoch

General
83

What I meant by implying that the devs don’t play their own game was exactly that—an implication. Let me explain it this way:

Let’s assume both new and veteran players start playing in Season 4. We create our characters, level them to 100, and gear them up. Then what?

Yes, Mike, Karv, and the others surely do play the game. But what comes after that? Where is the “after”?

We have the PoE-style Breach mechanic, fine. We have chained Monoliths, fine. We do all of that and even perfectly craft our items. After that, what are we supposed to do with this character? Where do we go next?

That’s exactly what I’m talking about.

84

PoE 1 and 2 still have plenty of bugs. There are exploits, there are dupes—you can’t fully prevent that. I won’t even start with Diablo. Torchlight Infinite, Undecember, Grim Dawn, and all the other games still have bugs even after years.

And yet, we (or I) play these games knowing and seeing these issues. Sometimes it’s painful, but we still play them because we enjoy them. That’s exactly my point.

Last Epoch can do the same. Build the endgame first—even with its flaws and mistakes. Then, over time, try to minimize those issues with new updates.

Just don’t make us play an empty game.

85

What you just described is arena, except with harbingers thrown in as well. And you don’t seem to like arena.

That is because you’re not a programmer. These things take time. GGG has their processes very streamlined at this point and yet they only add one mechanic every season, not 5 or 6.

Not only that, but what you consider great endgame content, lots of people will hate. That’s just part of human nature.
After all, plenty of people like arena, even though plenty also hate it. Same goes for PoE’s delve, or PoE2’s trial of suckmyass Sekhemas.

This is likely why they didn’t want a detailed roadmap, because some players would then start to say that it’s wrong and should be something else.

It probably doesn’t concern you that much, given your endgame activity. It does concern a lot of players, especially the altoholics (to whom the game is supposed to cater in the first place).

There are a bunch of devs that also play the game. They even created a room on the discord server for the devs to stream playing it regularly.

New and casual players will very rarely, if ever, reach level 100. It’s one of the reasons why they don’t want to add a paragon-like system post-100. They don’t want players to feel obligated to reach level 100.

In any game there will always come a point where you finish it. There is no more after. In LE it just comes sooner than in PoE, because PoE has had more than a decade of adding endgame stuff.
But PoE also has a “I’m done with the game, now what comes after?”.

That is why in all these games you get lots of players at season launch and they all fall down to below 10% of their peak later on. Only a few players keep playing past a month.
And those aren’t usually the grinders or min-maxxers. Those are the casuals that like the game and keep improving things.

The grinders and min-maxxers are done with the content in less than a month and move on to the next game on the list. They “finished it”. The only thing that changes is how long it takes them to do that. Which is usually around 2-3 weeks for PoE, 2-3 days for D4 and 3-5 days for LE.

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86

I agree that every game eventually reaches a “done” point. No game has infinite content. That’s not really the argument.

The issue is how and when that point is reached. In Last Epoch, that point comes far too early, and more importantly, it feels abrupt and empty rather than natural.

In PoE, even when you’re “done,” you usually reach that conclusion after engaging with layered endgame systems, long-term goals, and aspirational content. In LE, you often hit level 100, finish gearing, and then simply ask: “Is that it?

Yes, grinders and min-maxers will always finish faster and move on—that’s inevitable. But that doesn’t mean the endgame shouldn’t exist or shouldn’t challenge them at all. Those players are often the ones driving theorycrafting, guides, and community engagement.

The problem isn’t player drop-off; that happens in every seasonal ARPG. The problem is that LE currently doesn’t offer a meaningful “after” for players who want to keep pushing their character, even for a short time.

Endgame doesn’t need to be infinite—it just needs to exist.

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87

PoE also had, like I mentioned, more than a decade of adding endgame systems. The first couple of years were pretty much like LE is now. With even less endgame. And the mechanics they added at first were all mostly minimal.

PoE2, despite all the experience GGG had from PoE1 and despite importing several endgame mechanics directly from PoE1, also has the same issue.

Proper endgame mechanics that keep players engaged for a long time are hard to do and take time to develop.
Not to mention that for any given mechanic there will always be players that enjoy it and other that hate it.

For example, I hate delve. The season they introduced it was very short for me because I disliked it. There was still stuff I could do, I just didn’t liked doing it.
Just like you could still do arena, you just don’t like doing it.

They’re adding a breach like system to the endgame. We don’t yet know how complex it will be. Will it be just like champions where you interact with the breach, kill stuff, get your loot and repeat it indefinitely?
Or will it build up to something else where you get keys to a different zone which you then interact with and eventually move on to a final boss? Like PoE’s mechanics tend to do. And like breach was this last PoE league?

We don’t know any details yet. But you’re saying they’re not focusing on endgame when they’re clearly adding new endgame mechanics.
Whether you’ll like them or feel they’re “enough” to satisfy you is a different matter, though.

88

if i m being honest, i prefer LE’s endgame much more than D4 and even more than POE2.

infinite scaling corruption is actually good. if you’re stronger than you get to do tougher corruption levels. you dont need to but you want to.

my problem is when hard contet that has exclusive rewards are introduced. such as abberoth. one can say you dont NEED to kill him. but thats like saying you dont need to get to level 100.

89

You don’t need to get to level 100 either. I have over 50 characters. Not a single one is level 100. I have about a dozen that are level 99, some even mid-99 or close to 100, but none are 100.

By that point I just prefer to make a new character, rather than keep grinding. I never felt like I was missing out because of 1-4 passive points.

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90

im at 46k corrp already but no reward and pointless. im playing just for fun but sometimes like painful…

91

lmao, you’ve won the game bruh. on a separate note. i tend to find it sad that game devs tend to let balance have such huge gaps between players. me and my friends most of us play around c100-300. and we struggle. but there definitely are people who go c1000 and outliers like you that go 46k.

anyway one thing i do like about how corruption is handled in this game is that with diminishing returns i heard past maybe corruption 800? you dont seem to get any extra benefit for pushing further. just for more challenge. and i find that pretty good. players dont feel that they need to challenge that content but they can if they want to

92

I agree with you, the large power gaps in games can be really discouraging. It’s completely normal for players around c100–300 to struggle, because at those levels build options are more limited and mistakes are punished much more harshly. On the other hand, people pushing c1000 and beyond are usually running heavily optimized builds or investing a massive amount of time into the game.

When it comes to corruption, I feel the same way you do. The lack of meaningful reward scaling after around 800 feels like a healthy design choice. People aren’t pushing further because they have to, but because they genuinely want the challenge. At the corruption levels I play at in Last Epoch, it doesn’t really feel like I’m playing for rewards at all, nor does it feel like the usual LE experience. Instead, it almost feels like I’m playing a completely different game — and a fully stressful one :slightly_smiling_face:

93

And that’s the point when I’m out. When I’m to stressed or to bored and fun isn’t the primary aspect of my gaming experience I’m out. That’s why I completely stoped to interact with H&S endgame systems that are a slog by choice and design. That’s why playing the Paladin in D4 was fun for a day or two because the mechanics were neat and it was stupidly overpowered. D4 wasn’t better but the gameplayloop was fun for a while because it was fresh and smooth.

Playing a fully fledged out build already minmaxed to the last .1% is what makes me bored out of my mind. If the gameplayloop I have to grind is designed in a boring way I’m out even faster.

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94

On the contrary, I actually enjoy pushing myself to the hardest parts in the games I’ve been playing since the ’80s. While I’m dealing with challenges, I’m also giving my brain a workout. It feels really good. My reflexes stay sharp the whole time. :slightly_smiling_face:

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95

You think that the devs can have any effect on player “balance”/skill? Do you think they devs can patch for our skill level?

There’s nothing stopping you from using a build that’s capable of doing much higher corruption unless you don’t enjoy the archetype.

Build balance is an entirely different thing and an ongoing issue.

96

honestly, i think the ship has sailed a long time ago. AND i think a lot of “arpg lovers” are power fantasy junkies. if money is the major driving factor, then EHG has to bend the knee and cater to these players. its similar to how POE 2 which wanted to be more slow and deliberate, ended up becoming a zoom mess.

i enjoy organic player growth where players feel rewarded for organically experimenting and finding ways to be stronger.

in modern D-likes, the magnitude of power players get from following an optimized build is simply huge. taking poe for an example. any random can finish act 10 and end up with 10-20k dps with their scuffed self made build. but those following a build guide easily get past 100k and actually go into millions.

personally speaking, to me, whenever i need to follow a build guide, all i feel is the game is playing me rather than me playing the game. organic growth is me playing the game.

so when it comes to the question of what stopping me? the answer is preference. i dont like such games. if i m being honest whenever i see a isometric game trailer where theres bullets all over the place and screen wide aoes. i just feel its not for me.

and speaking of that i actually feel survivor likes are better games than modern d-likes in that aspect. despite getting random choices to choose from, the choices the player makes feel like they matter more. you’re encouraged to make smart build choices and you feel more pride and accomplishment when you manage to push your build.

what pride and accomplishment is there to be had when all you did was follow a guide? i see many kids play puzzle games and their dumbasses resort to searching for walkthrus on youtube. lmao.

on the flipside i’ve played many d-likes using my own scuffed build. and it sucks ass. i have many friends who faced the same struggles. we know how it feels. back when shaper was introduced in poe. all my guildies couldnt take him down. many of us played from open beta while some were closed beta players. we loved doing our own thing.

one day one of our friends who recently started playing (back then), skipped that entire process. he just followed a cyclone build. he became the first person in the guild to kill shaper.

on one hand i m happy for my friend. on another all it did was make me feel salty. all my efforts was for shits.

thanks to that one friend more of us started using build guides. more of us came to the realization that theyve been wasting so much time and effort trying to play organically.

in the end most followed build guides. cleared all content. and quit the game. were they satisfied? everyone has their own opinions. i cant speak for all of them but one conclusion that we all agreed on was that playing organically was a waste of time. it is very likely you will be punished for playing organically when you are unable to clear content.

i would add at this point, some counter arguments would include “i cleared x using my own build!”. to which i say, good for you. making a build is like throwing 20 pairs of dices and hope 14 pairs roll high numbers. it is possible to roll that high by luck. and if you do you definitely will have the idea that “what do you mean self made builds dont work, i did 5 and all can clear uber abby”. but to others that kept rolling poorly. the experience is different.

ultimately i havent touched LE nor POE in a while. both are not installed and i have very little interest in such games. i find NRFTW much better with meaningful combat where skill is rewarded/required. TQ2 has broken builds BUT a scuffed build can still clear content for now so its still cool.

build balance has always been an ongoing issue, but with abby’s existence, and uber abby being created later. i can clearly see LE adopting the same path that poe took where the emphasis is not on equalizing different builds. but instead just catering to players with stronger builds.

the main thing thats stopping me from playing builds now is that i dont even have LE installed nor even have the drive to play it. its not for me. its for people who dont want to think and just follow build guides.

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97

If they don’t add a proper endgame to the game and just say “doing UBERs is enough” again, then no amount of balance changes will really matter. Every class will still do UBERs, and projectile builds will still push high corruption. My only real expectation at this point is that they don’t ruin the game. I genuinely don’t want it to become like PoE.

The reason I’m this pessimistic is that I’ve played almost every ARPG I’ve ever heard of or known by name. Because of that, I can usually tell what they’re going to change long before new content or seasons even arrive. Season 4 will, without a doubt, be a disappointment for me.

The long gaps between seasons — 7 to 8 months — and the EHG team still going through a “getting used to each other” phase push me even more toward this conclusion. What really sealed it for me was seeing the upcoming Rogue skills. I immediately thought: here we go again, they’re bringing Shuriken for UBERs. Those skills won’t be usable for Arena or for corruption pushing anyway.

The Breach mechanic also feels like empty talk to me. They were under heavy pressure, so they basically said “here’s a roadmap.” It’s not hard to see that. And if they once again say “just kill UBERs, that’s enough — there’s no real endgame for you,” then I won’t keep playing this game anymore, even after 12k hours.

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98

You do you… while gaming I want to give my brain a breake from all the stress and not more stress :slight_smile: .

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99

absolutly: :smiley:

100

That’s fair, but none of that has anything to do with player skill. Build/skill balance is a good goal but it’s also really hard with there are so many variables. Plus it means different things to different people.

Yeah, that’s because there’s a massive disparity between an optimised build & letting RNGesus take the wheel/rolling your face over the keyboard when you pick skills/skill points & passives.

101

I don’t think it’s quite that though. I think it’s just that ARPGs these days (mostly the fault of GGG, if one is being fair) is much more complex.

If you compare the different types of modifiers/affixes in D2 and PoE, the difference is abysmal.
D2 was pretty straight-forward. You had the defence stat, block and resists. You had fairly straightforward damage affixes or cast/attack speed. You had +skills. You had +attributes. Everything was clear and straight forward and you immediately knew what each one did and which was better.
Diablo 2 didn’t even have critical damage.

Then GGG came and made things extremely complex. You now have armor/ES/evasion, you have spell supression, block, chance to avoid damage, damage reduction.
Then you have increased damage, increased fire/light/cold/whatever damage, flat damage, accuracy, chance to do double damage if whatever happens, plus a whole slew of other affixes.

So now players don’t have clear cut choices. Do I get more damage if I replace this 30% increased damage with 20% increased critical chance? What about a flat damage? What if the damage is elemental?

In D2 you didn’t need a guide. Everything was pretty easy to understand and the difference between an optimized build and one you made on your own wasn’t that big.

But now that we have hundreds of different affixes (each with lots of different tiers), each interacting in small but meaningful ways, the difference between an optimized build and one you made on your own is now huge unless you really understand all the underlying mechanics.

102

agreed. i’ve long come to terms that what i want is not good for neither EHG or GGG. i tend to only suggest things that i think can benefit them but once in a while i do bitch and rant knowing it does nothing.

yeah. you technically COULD follow a build guide and get a more fluid experience but you really didnt need to.

one other thing i would mention is how potions worked in d2 is something i appreciate a huge lot in retrospect. we have potions to deal with poison/freeze etc. just pop em.

POE on the other hand has a potion refill system that is highly anti newbie. if you cant kill, you get zero charges. if you’re stuck fighting a boss, you get zero charges. so we end up using portals to strategically retreat to town when we’re out. at the very end game we’re get to the point where we either heavily rely on flasks or not use them at all.

personally i found their take on evasion was pretty unique and cool, with an entropy system. but i think the main problem is “layered defence” for YEARS layered defence was the best defence. 50% chance to dodge, 50% chance to evade, 75% chance to block (could be 80-90% depending on how far back you went - i could also be mistaken). you mathematically were “immortal” as things couldnt hit you. and if the enemy got thru all that, many players had 90% damage resists which made their EHP rocket upwards.

as much as i praise POE for defining modern d-likes. theres a lot of beauty in d2’s simplicity. d2 is far from perfect but damn. did i love playing it back in the day.

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