I Don't See Why Forging Potential Exists

[Llama8]

@vapourfire

Been reading through everything posted above and the thing that kept coming up in my mind is that @RJca is trying to craft at a time when there is no real need to craft in the game

I think that is incredibly subjective. One may not “need” to craft early on, but even putting 1-2 levels of void/necrotic resist on most gear slots when you’re in the relevant era provides a massive defensive buff (like 20%-40% of actual DR) as well as a significant offensive improvement to your weapon (flat damage, crit, etc). You just won’t be able to put many levels onto affixes because of the low FP of an item & you probably won’t be able to “max out” (take the affixes up to the max level you can wear) an item.

@vapourfire

crafting is intended for later use and is currently designed that way…

I don’t think that’s the case and I’m not sure the fevs have ever said that. Not being able to “get the most out of it” or “crafting is more limited early on” is very different to “we don’t want you to craft until mid-end game”.

@vapourfire

Honestly, based on my experience there literally needs to be a big red stop sign saying “Dont craft yet”. or at least something to help new players realise that they cannot craft super dooper items at low levels.

Given that the devs have put a crafting related popups/quest in well before you reach the end of time, it’s clear that they want the player to be aware of and doing some crafting early on.

IMO what they need to do better (somehow) is manage the new player’s expectations of what is possible with low/mid/high level crafting.

[vapourfire]

Problem for me is that I have been playing too long to put myself back into a new players shoes. I have a fair number of characters now - I am not crazy into alts for each possible build but at least 1 of each available class mastery right now - and I dont think I ever did any crafting on them until at least reaching Lagon… even my most recent levelled builds from when I understood the game far better…

I never crafted early because I didnt really need anything crafted… I distinctly remember reaching points where I would get my arse kicked by some lightining mobs or birds and realised I needed another level of elemental protection - but I still didnt use crafting because I would either have a choice item saved in stash or something better would drops from a few extra runs the maps… Its only at those moments like Lagon that I would consider a craft to fix a hole…

In the first few months of playing, I also didnt have any crafting mats (or at least not many of the good ones) so this also prevented me from relying on crafting.

So yes, its subjective but realistically I honestly didnt find the need for crafting (which is a plus for the loot drop system)… even on the new crafting system which is much easier than the old, crafting early on (even with an abundance of mats/resources) just didnt seem neccessary to me.

Not saying the devs dont want players to craft early, but lets face it there are hurdles specifically in place to prevent crafting - lack of mats, cost of shattering runes, low FP on low itemlevel white/blue and even rare items, big FP range loss possibilities mean some items can get one or two crafts max, lack of hope/chaos runes early in the game… All of these are nothing more than ways to prevent early crafting and I think they are negative in that they make it hard/frustrating.

So yes, they may not say they dont intend people to craft, but these factors say otherwise because they are almost irrelevant in late-game and for anyone who has run a few chars already and stocked up… so they are worse for any new player to experience…

@Llama8

IMO what they need to do better (somehow) is manage the new player’s expectations of what is possible with low/mid/high level crafting.

I believe this circles back to my initial thought - of crafting early when there isnt really an incentive to do so… take the OP - its obvious to me - they have attempted to make good crafted items at a time when its REALLY hard to do so without a lot of luck, and this expectation has definitely resulted in frustration with the Crafting system…

I hate gated mechanics in any game but I am wondering if it would simply be easier to move the crafting quest later in the game and lock it better than it currently is (mat availability and itemlevel)… While this is a negatively focussed solution, it does prevent the frustration that early failed crafting can give players…

[Llama8]

@vapourfire

I believe this circles back to my initial thought - of crafting early when there isnt really an incentive to do so…

Is the incentive to take less damage not enough? I know the campaign is generally very easy, but what about when they give it a balance pass & it becomes somewhat harder? Should they then “re-enable” crafting? Sounds like an aweful lot of too-ing & fro-ing just because you can’t craft up to t20 easily early on.

@vapourfire

I hate gated mechanics in any game but I am wondering if it would simply be easier to move the crafting quest later in the game and lock it better than it currently is (mat availability and itemlevel)…

That would be totally throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[vapourfire]

Maybe this is all because the game is too easy early on?
Maybe the issue is irrelevant and new players are just being noobs?
Maybe crafting itself needs to be considered in the same way the game needs a balancing pass?
Maybe loot drops are not enough on thier own to negate the need for early crafting?
Maybe the game needs much more tutorials / hand holding?

All that I take from this is that there are sticking points in the game that add frustration for new users and if the game is going to catch the majority of casual players (* I exclude people like you and I in this and probably the majority of forum members) and keep them interested beyond one run of the campaign, then these kinds of things need to be addressed somehow…

Even if we, especially arpg veterans, dont think that the issue is actually that bad, posts like the above and a few comments I have seen on other feedback related threads and discord, seem to indicate that this general frustration and lack of engagement (for casual people not interested in alts/grinding/hardcore etc) could be something that might negatively impact the game long term…

[ExsiliumUltra]

@vapourfire

Even if we, especially arpg veterans, dont think that the issue is actually that bad, posts like the above and a few comments I have seen on other feedback related threads and discord, seem to indicate that this general frustration and lack of engagement (for casual people not interested in alts/grinding/hardcore etc) could be something that might negatively impact the game long term…

I was about to post something negative and somewhat derogatory, and then I re-read your post. Thank you. It is possible to balance and provide something for all levels of players. It just takes a little more thought and a fair amount more work.

As for crafting I think it is actually in an ok place minus some balancing, and something to make it a bit more real crafting and less of an RNG slot machine. A single upgrade/craft should not be able to suck out more than half of the FP right at the first swing of the RNG bat. I personally have only usually used it to try and replace something I found already with most of what I need(unsuccessfully), for example I had the same dagger from around 30-70. replacement was also found and only needed slight upgrades. I don’t really see upgrades as crafting. I think a once per item rare rune that allows you to selectively and deterministically replace 1 prefix or one suffix would help move it more towards crafting without becoming an item editor.

[EnuwEpoch]

@Heavy

I absolutely despise systems that are just resource sinks.

Loot in loot-driven games needs to be unpredictable, so you actually have good and bad stuff.
And most importantly you get surprised (positively).

Systems that have a very predictable (or 100% predicatable) outcome are just boring and they feel like a asian grind simulator.

Personally, I see that now there is a system of endless asian grind.
Just because now crafting does not make it possible to get an affix above T5.
As a result, we grind items from the floor with good T6-T7 affixes, ignoring crafting, and using it only when we got items with necessary T6-T7 affixes.
But given the fact that it is almost impossible to get 4 T7 affixes on an item, we have an endless grind of items from the floor, with absolute disregard for crafting.

[EnuwEpoch]

@Llama8

It wouldn’t though, you’d find your 1 base, grind out the mats & then craft it one time & you’re done.

The ideal base is four T7 affixes.
Given the fact that you cannot craft affixes above T5, having now an ideal base, you simply do not need crafting.

Also, it is not needed if you do not have the necessary T6-T7 affix. Just because you can loot out an item with three necessary affixes T5 and one T6, and such an item will be better than what you craft.

As a result, now the crafting system is needed only to get an intermediate items, a patch for the build. And the crafting system will never allow you to get the desired item.

[Llama8]

Just because it’s not possible to craft the best possible items, be they 4xt7s, uniques or legendaries, doesn’t mean crafting is irrelevant. I’m kinda confused by what you meant.

[Heavy]

@EnuwEpoch

As a result, we grind items from the floor with good T6-T7 affixes, ignoring crafting, and using it only when we got items with necessary T6-T7 affixes.

Using “we” as if every player only looks out for exalted items sounds like every player will have fully T20 rare items eventually, which is not the case.

At the top end a lot of very dedicated players will eventually transition from T20 rares into having exalted items almost on every slot, but that is basically top-end min-maxing already.

On top of that, you will still craft on exalted items and especially on exalted items crating is even more intereting, because they can have multiple purposes (using the item itself for your character or using it as a legendary crafting material).

So in that sense you will have even more different strategies on how to make these items as good as they can be, depending on what you wanna do with them.

And a lot of these methods (Glyphs and Runes) are not predictable. Both the outcome and the FP consumption.

You and me might have different things in mind when talking about “asian grind”.

But being on the look out for the perfect item, even if it takes ages doesn’t bother me.
I was not refering to “asian grind” because of the time it takes, but because a lot of these type of games (especially MMO’s) have a lot of resources that you need to farm over and over and over and over again to eventually get the desired result 100%.

[EnuwEpoch]

I’ll try to describe in more detail what I think.
I apologize in advance, English is not my native language.

The author of the topic does not understand why the FP limit is needed.
As an argument, many players say that the FP limit is needed so that it is not possible to get the perfect item from 0.

I apply two conditions existing in the game to the current motivation.

Firstly, we cannot craft affixes above T5. Which already says that it will not be possible to create an ideal item from 0.
Secondly, even after getting the desired affix T7, we are faced with a restriction in the form of FP.

As a result, having received a full set of items from the floor, with the T6-T7 affixes we need, we will somehow craft useful, but not priority T5 affixes. And next time we will return to crafting only when we get an item with better T6-T7 affixes from the floor.

And in the absolute end, crafting in the game will never give the desired impact.

I’ll try to give an analogy.
Imagine that you have a game in which there are 10 locations.
Starting from the 4th location, you are forbidden to move by any ways except teleport.
But the first three locations you move by running.

In this case, the speed of running in the game as a whole is not useless, but it has zero effect from a certain point.

And in this regard, the restriction on increasing the speed of running looks like a shot in a crippled knee.

[EnuwEpoch]

@Heavy

I was not refering to “asian grind” because of the time it takes, but because a lot of these type of games (especially MMO’s) have a lot of resources that you need to farm over and over and over and over again to eventually get the desired result 100%.

Maybe I don’t understand something.

I don’t see the difference in grinding 100500 resources and making a perfect item, or grinding 100500 items and choosing an perfect item from them.

I’m just wondering, how many crafting resources do you have right now? And how long have you stopped picking them up?

[Llama8]

@EnuwEpoch

I’m just wondering, how many crafting resources do you have right now? And how long have you stopped picking them up?

Lots & never.

Thanks for your other post, that helps a lot. I guess I’m normally more active in the “first 4 locations” so only being able to teleport to the others doesn’t affect me much, but I do get the metaphor.

[Heavy]

@EnuwEpoch

I don’t see the difference in grinding 100500 resources and making a perfect item, or grinding 100500 items and choosing an perfect item from them.

Because with collecting 100500 resources the expected result will be predictable and you will have very slow contionous progression towards that specific item you want to create.
(The statisfaction of creating that item will be very low, because you could see it coming)

But with 100500 items, you never know when the next item you can use will drop, it could happen at the 50347th item aleady or maybe it will take 120475 items to get something useful.
My point is, you will get surprised by it and also the item itself will not always be exactly what you want, but rather something that is as close as it can be and you will try to utuiize the crafting system to slightly adjust the item to better fit your needs.

Being able to create exactly the items that you want is not exciting, its just tedious busywork.
Dropping an unexpected item can take your by surprise. And with a lot of meicre items dropping you need to eveluate if some of them might be useful enough to be worth spending time and resources on them. Which is anotehr aspect that would not be the case with the resource sink system.

[RJca]

There’s been a lot of really great feedback and other perspectives here which was cool to see. I wanted to touch on something you mentioned though that might elucidate the different perspectives here.

You mentioned:

@Heavy

Because with collecting 100500 resources the expected result will be predictable and you will have very slow contionous progression towards that specific item you want to create.

Versus:

@Heavy

But with 100500 items, you never know when the next item you can use will drop, it could happen at the 50347th item aleady or maybe it will take 120475 items to get something useful.

And you go on to say the former isn’t exciting compared to the latter.

See, I generally disagree. I’d much rather a system of levelling, dropping, and crafting that sees incremental progress and rewards based on ‘building up’ than random drop chance (if that makes sense).

[Heavy]

@RJca

And you go on to say the former isn’t exciting compared to the latter.

See, I generally disagree. I’d much rather a system of levelling, dropping, and crafting that sees incremental progress and rewards based on ‘building up’ than random drop chance (if that makes sense).

That is totally fine and that’s why we are here in a forum discussing different points of view.

I personally like to focus on the actual gameplay and do stuff that I enjoy and don’t want to actively think about my next upgrade that much. (I still have things in my mind that I would like to upgrade next, mostly the “weakest” parts about my character).

Randomly encountering new potentially good items and evaluating on the spot if they could be a potential upgrade is much more engaging than knowing: “I have to do 20 more echeos to finally upgrade my boots to the point where I can replace my current boots”

And with that you will have these “WOAH moments”, where you get this totally unexpected items.
And in my opinion these very few “WOAH moments” outweight any of the annoyance or frustration that the system sometimes can bring with it.

With the system you proposed there would literally be no “WOAH moments” (unless an item dropped perfectly already). And you will only get continously mediocre feelings.

[BroncoCollider]

@EnuwEpoch

The ideal base is four T7 affixes.
Given the fact that you cannot craft affixes above T5, having now an ideal base, you simply do not need crafting.

That might be relevant if you were ever going to see even a 3xT7 base. But you’re not.

This is a great example of what I said earlier in the thread - “If it isn’t the best, it’s worthless” thinking. Any line of argument or reasoning that starts at that perspective is invalid and does not contribute to the discussion.

@RJca

I’d much rather a system of levelling, dropping, and crafting that sees incremental progress and rewards based on ‘building up’ than random drop chance (if that makes sense).

Then you probably need to accept that games like this are not for you.

[RJca]

@BroncoCollider

Then you probably need to accept that games like this are not for you.

I got 1,000+ hrs of mileage from PoE, and many more from D1 and D2, Dungeon Siege, Grim Dawn, Titan Quest… so you’re definitely wrong on that. Different strokes as I said, no issue with that.

[Llama8]

@Heavy

The statisfaction of creating that item will be very low, because you could see it coming

That’s not true Heavy, people like having put work into a thing, it makes them value it more (Ikea is an example of this). You wouldn’t get a “woah” moment but that isn’t the only source of satisfaction.

@Heavy

And in my opinion these very few “WOAH moments” outweight any of the annoyance or frustration that the system sometimes can bring with it.

Then why do we have crafting at all? Surely it just takes away some of those “woah” moments?

[Heavy]

@Llama8

@Heavy

And in my opinion these very few “WOAH moments” outweight any of the annoyance or frustration that the system sometimes can bring with it.

Then why do we have crafting at all? Surely it just takes away some of those “woah” moments?

No it doesn’t, when a mediocre item to beging with transforms into a perfect item with soem lucky glyph of chaos or rune of removal

[EnuwEpoch]

You physically cannot get the perfect item by crafting in the current system. This argument simply has no weight.

Perfect items are not being crafted just because T6+ affixes are not being crafted. The current crafting system cannot give a “wow” effect.

Even if you get an item with four T7 affixes, you get a “wow/2” effect, because you still need to get a unique item with LP4.

And one more thing.
The predictability of the result of crafting, given that crafting is absolutely random, is the same as the predictability that I will ever get the item I need by drop.

Just for an example. I have an armor with two T7 affixes and two wrong affixes. What is the probability that I will be able to change the affixes I don’t need to the ones I need?

I can change the affixes I don’t need randomly until they become T5, then I will need to pray that I don’t randomly remove the T7 affix to remove the wrong one.

Even if I immediately randomly remove the affixes I don’t need, and I’m lucky twice with a 50/50 chance and then 33/66, then I won’t have enough FP to get 2 modest T5 affixes on this thing

As a result, instead of the effect of “wow, I got an item with two T7 affixes”, I get the effect of “oh shit, I can’t craft anything decent out of this”.

PS
My current lootfilter:
https://ibb.co/fDdpDdW