Even that is a world apart from crafting gear, still. You spend a few seconds, maybe a few minutes on a map, as Kulze said, alch & go is what you’ll do most of the time. You’re certainly not spending hours on a single map, or even a bunch.
Sure, but it still breaks the flow. Much like picking shards on LE does. It doesn’t take long, it’s just a little annoying, but it does break the flow.
So does clicking on a portal in that case, or having to click to level up gems, walk to your stash to sort through loot, etc.
Yes, that’s not the case anymore.
Chiseling is still a thing, given it simply gives you 20% quant, which is cheap to do and massive in outcome.
Then you alch it which is making it rare.
Then you use ‘scarabs’ to decide which mechanic - specifically which aspects of a mechanic, hence many combinations available - you want to focus on.
This allows vast variety in how you want to engage with the content and how much effort you want to put into it. And you get 3 different possible pre-setups without changing stuff to do so which commonly include at least 2 mechanics.
Yes, that’s D2, the genre has moved beyond that since that time.
Crafting itself provides a massive rise in complexity and choices which might matter. When to craft, what to craft, how much to invest into a specific item, which personal piece of your outfit you want or should upgrade for best effect with the gear you have already and the potential gear you could get further on.
And yes:
What you’re describing there is not a downside of PoE, it’s an upside for it. Depth.
I’ll lead back to game-design having a term coined that’s named (I think) ‘Least viable product’ of a genre. It includes the absolute possible minimum one could ever do, removing all aspects of complexity to funnel it down to the absolute minimum needed. For a platformer for example it’s the inputs and the collision model that you don’t fall through stuff, as well as a way to end the area. No physics (like gradual change in velocity) either full air-control (not hindering inputs) or no air control (simply not having inputs) depending on initial framework setup as well as the check for the end. That’s it. Doesn’t sound all too enticing itself if you got a random shape moving about on simplistic platforms positioned without care but possibility to solve, does it?
Everything beyond is ‘game depth’. Some enjoy more, some enjoy less. Often tries to create depth lead to frustrating situations like waiting times or controls feeling ‘clunky’ or ‘floaty’ or something else.
So with that out of the way: Diablo 2 was praised highly - not only for the time - because the itemization system had a vast variety of mechanics. We got the base drops, we got areas which you can choose that improve performance to get those drops (with different difficulty and hence risk), we got the sockets, we got gems to put inside… then runes as well which could create runewords… and we got ethereal equipment which has increased values but no way to repair (which could be alleviated with runewords as well) while also providing uniques. Roll ranges on top.
That’s highly complex, and given the available content and difficulty it provided a very good balance between baseline possibility to deal with all available content in the game (Nightmare Baal can be killed in HC without massive investment) but provided a heavy incentive to reduce the time to kill, a personal goal. And less time to kill is in direct correlation with loot acquisition rate which then further allows to reduce time to kill even more. Which was the major advent of long-term grinding basically.
So… that offered one major big issue though: All of that was 100% RNG without any way besides ‘kill time’ to influence the likelyhood of outcomes. Wanted to get a specific unique? Well… you’ll get it! Next mob…in 3 months… who knows?
So crafting was implemented. Not happy with the drop? Adjust it! Sure, you need something to do that… but you can keep increase the drop complexity while alleviating the RNG with either a second roll or a deterministic outcome of some kind.
This allows more depth. No crafting at all means that your basic drop-system needs to be barebones enough to allow players to progress through your content without major issues, otherwise they will get frustrated. The game is ‘unbalanced’ so to say. ‘I’m playing 10 hours but I can’t find anything which lets me kill this boss!’ ‘What are you talking about? The whole game was too easy! You can kill everything in 2 hits!’… and both are right at the same time since one has bad loot luck and the other good loot luck. And that’s baaaaad… really bad.
It’s a sign of a lack of game design that despite a very powerful crafting system LE provides a viable option to get through the vast majority of the content (outside Aberroth since you need to push a bit for that) without ever touching the crafting screen even once. It’s not a ‘boon’, it’s a detriment.
Yes, it is. But solely because of their dumb socket system, which luckily went away in PoE 2. That’s the main reason what breaks their neck as it’s major depth… but limiting depth.
So would that now mean that PoE 2 is better then LE since the early game definitely is vastly better then both PoE 1 and LE even in their 0.1 state? I haven’t gotten to late game yet in the last 20 hours of play-time as my first impression, but the early game is extremely solid, all the way through to Act 3 for now, which given the methodical combat system there is time-wise the equivalent to LE’s campaign end already… and it’s definitely not piss-easy as LE is… nor is it extremely hard. Bosses are assholes… but beatable assholes even with bad gear. Good gear just makes the fights shorter and gives more leeway. Well executed.
I enjoy the moment to moment gameplay. That means I want my combat to have impact on me when I try to push… which means I want my player skill to impact the outcome to a definite degree… which sadly LE doesn’t do a fantastic job with as there’s several monster types which swarm and aren’t properly avoidable to at least take some damage from even with well managed positioning… actually backing up often leads to more damage taken as a end-result, which makes high DPS builds more viable then high defensive builds.
PoE does it sliiiightly better, there’s the outliers of the Porcupine mobs which explode into physical projectiles in Act 3 for example, which can’t realistically be avoided and enforce defensive measures to be taken since those projectiles will overlap. But the majority of enemies can realistically with movement speed be completely avoided, up to a degree that you can kill Harbinger Bosses with a severely undergeared character given you focus on the proper ways of traversing as well as to take out the right enemies they spawn (which can be tricky as it’s a mess of bodies often).
PoE 2 on the other hand is supreme to both in that direction… and ‘No Rest for the Wicked’ is even more so… which inherently comes down to how much ‘Hack’n’Slash’ aspect you have in it. How big are the hordes and how varied are their attack types… as well as how many options do you personally have to CC enemies to stop them from dishing out their damage or best-case even act.
Act 4 and Act 9. Recommended Act 9, which you get through towards with a 4 link usually. Act 4 takes 2-3 hours roughly instead.
The exact area is the waterways area, hence the place you get into the Act itself on both occassions.
So yes 
You wouldn’t be the only person doing that specific early-game strategy.
Not to speak that a Tabula Rasa is a common unique drop and happening statistically 1 in 4 playthroughs naturally during the campaign.
So is looking through gear and deciding if it’s worth to keep or throw away.
So is selling items.
So is sorting through the inventory.
It’s a miniscule aspect which is enhancing the gameplay, not inhibiting it. Sitting around and trying to roll the exact right affix with a orb of alteration and hence needing at times 1000+ clicks with your brain shutting off and sometimes rolling over the right outcome… that’s a mess. One which would be fixed with a simple setup allowing the player to pick the acceptable outcomes and then letting the system roll until one happens. But people say that since years and it goes into one ear of GGG and out the other. RSI thanks them definitely.
Implement the same with any other type of regularly re-used crafting and you have them suddenly become enjoyable systems instead of chores.
The difference is that while PoE’s crafting systems are definitely superior to LE’s crafting systems the methodology for implementation from LE is superior to those from PoE.
Chance the depth of the system in LE and it becomes outright better… with the attached mechanics influenced… or change the methodology of the implementation in PoE and it becomes outright better. Both games have their own shortcomings.
Sure, but it’s still my favorite ARPG (and I regularly go back to it for a time, either classic, remastered or PD2) and my opinions on games are very biased by it. It’s one of the reasons I like LE so much, because I have a lot of the same feelings when I play it as when I play D2.
I agree, but to be fair, I’ve always hated crafting in games. In every single game. LE is one of the ones I hate the least, but I still don’t like to use it. And I like that I don’t really have to do it until 100c+.
I don’t think that’s a good example. There are lots of platformers with crappy graphics and with basic physics but that have excellent level design, so they’re a lot more fun than others that have awesome graphics, acceleration, etc.
The problem is that some people think complexity = depth. Games can have depth without being overly complex.
That highly depends on what class you’re playing with and what skills you’re using. As a witch, early act 1 is horrible. And no amount of gear makes it better, since your power comes from the skills, not gear.
Indeed. Which is why I like that in LE I set my filter and don’t bother with most gear until early monos. Usually my filter is set so that if something drops in the campaign I’m gonna use it. It’s not until the higher normal monos and then empowered monos that I start actively looking at the gear.
And it’s also why I don’t sell items (especially because they’re not worth selling in either LE or PoE).
Don’t get me wrong here, still my fav ARPG as well, but the times have gone on and the design decisions for both depth and mass acceptance being gradually refined and adjusted over time.
D2 is objectively dated nowadays, not only are the controls fairly unresponsive and imprecise compared to modern games (which makes the combat a lot more straightforward and simplistic) but also the itemization system simply doesn’t uphold anymore. Everyone loved runewords… and everyone hated runewords. It was a very interesting mechanic which nigh nobody ever could experience in their game personally… and that’s a sad state of it.
Invested level design is vastly beyond ‘least viable product’. For example ‘Super Meat Boy’ is very simplistic with expanding level design… and it’s a blast of a platformer game with tight controls. But far beyond the core components which defines the genre.
To be extra clear, any RPG affixes can be reduced down to ‘Life’ and ‘Damage’. Different use-cases and different methods for the math… but that’s the outcome. Hence those 2 are ‘least viable’ in that relation. Which isn’t all too enticing either by itself without other system backing it up. Same as the platformer example as the level design itself is the majority of the game’s quality for that genre. Itemization and combat are for diablo-clones.
Oh! But complexity = depth That comment holds 100% true!
People just forget that other aspects can provide depth too!
Gear absolutely influences the Witch massively first off. Like any class a weapon is the prime thing which causes in that game to make a difference.
Early Act 1 is also horrible for the Mercenary since you have no AoE and either only low-damage abilities or single-target slightly-more damage abilities.
So… let me dismantle that whole bit you wrote there a bit:
You set your filter so you have basically a guaranteed upgrade when picking it up.
You don’t craft.
Those things actually seem to off-put you more then enhance your experience.
So I guess your core aspects you’re going after are the build-creation (which LE definitely isn’t remotely the best game for, but given the other mechanics provides the easiest viable place I guess?) and for the combat feel itself I imagine?
And movement speed. That is neither life or damage, but simply game pace. For example, PoE2 is very very very slow. And maps are very very very big. It’s kinda boring, really.
PoE1 and LE are pretty fast and maps are smaller. Makes for a faster paced combat which is more enjoyable to me. Though I understand and accept that some people like the slower pace.
Not really. You can have complex systems that don’t bring depth to the game. For example, imagine that you had to draw a set of 5 runes with your mouse to cast a spell. That would make combat a lot more complex, but it wouldn’t add any depth to it.
Which is why Arx Fatalis did that and no other RPG tried to do the same. And even Arx Fatalis had to add slots of pre-stored spells you could quick cast.
Not really. Your weapon doesn’t change your minion damage and your minions early on are terribly squishy and barely do damage.
Mostly just combat feel and character progression. For build creation I would need time and these days I have little of it, so even if LE is simpler I still use build guides.
And why would you say LE isn’t remotely the best game for? It actually has a lot of different options for build creation. Might not have as many skill options and as complex of a passive tree, but it certainly has a lot of build diversity. Definitely one of the top ARPGs for that.
No, that’s an auxiliary mechanic, no need for it.
Regen, heal, mana… all that stuff is beyond ‘minimum viable’ already.
As said, boring… but that’s the starting point.
That’s… a game system itself, not complexity of the system?
Having to draw 5 runes to cast a spell is just tedium and not complexity. It doesn’t ‘add’ anything viable in itself.
On the other hand when you have such a system for a dexterity-based game which is built upon drawing precisely and quickly both to depict your casting speed and hence have a upside in a fight this way it can be a very very nice mechanic. There was a small game on the Nintendo DS where you had to draw your spells, using always the same mana while increasing power for precision and having to stop advancing units with them and your own units. So it became a tactical game of deciding if you rush to save your units with shoddily quickly drawn spells or take your time for major large hits or extra AoE while also timing the movement of the units with the position of drawing.
Very well done, massive amounts of depth to that system for such a simplistic implementation there.
Ahhhh, minions. Yep, those are an issue still I heard.
Because the build variety falls below Torchlight Infinite even purely on character progression, though that game has large amounts of crafting and a rather shoddy combat feeling in my eyes. But pure build variety is higher.
PoE? We don’t even need to start talking about that.
PoE 2 also has a higher amount of viable build combinations through their ability to cross-combine skills between classes.
Diablo 3 and 4 are more simplistic.
PoE2 begs to differ. So did Grim Dawn initially (there was even a mod to increase the base walking speed).
Slow paced games are boring (to me at least). Movement speed is very important.
Hitting a button to cast a spell and drawing runes to cast the same spell are the same system. The end result of both are the same, one is just more complex to use.
It got better later on, but the start is tough.
I have never advanced TI past the campaign. Much like Undecember. I hate mobile-like games that have a bunch of notifications and daily quests that try to grab your attention. So I can’t comment on that.
LE obviously falls behind PoE1 and 2. But it’s better than GD and any diablo. Better than Wolcen. Better than TQ1.
The discussed topic about those answers before was ‘minimal valid design’, neither Grim Dawn, PoE or likely any other game you played outside of ‘Pong’ is ‘minimally valid’.
Yes, and the extra depth causes a new layer of decision making to happen. It’s not fun though. The system is deeper, but not making it up for the extra downsides implemented through the complexity.
You don’t make complexity for the sake of complexity, you make complexity to allow the creation of more depth by doing it well.
Yes, absolutely, because the focus of GD is on itemization and not inherent build diversity. I would argue that GD is a better polished game for their market position the LE is in the current state. (We have to take into consideration SP versus live-service here for such a case)
I’m probably older than you think. I have played a bunch of minimally valid games because they were all that existed back then. Most notably, Jumping Jack was as minimal as pong.
But you were saying that RPGs could be reduced to just those 2, which isn’t really true. There are games that are reduced to just “Damage”. Usually infinite progression ones like Idle Heroes. Which, despite being an idle game, is also an RPG.
And if you want to specify ARPGs rather than RPGs, then speed is also part of the minimally valid part.
You mean the game that was released 8 years ago and had 2 expansions already is a more polished game than one released this year? I’m shocked. 
At release date.
That can’t be the case, I think I’ve had one naturally drop a handful of times ever in the past ~13 years. I’ve bought loads of them, just not had many drop.