Giving damaging ailments a unique feel

I wanted to make a general post about what I think could be improved, but it’s kind of late and so I’m going to stick to damaging ailments only for this post.
After over 1000 hours of playing this game I feel like I should share my opinion on the things I feel could be improved.

So let’s start with the most important ailments: Bleed, Poison, Ignite, Shock, Frostbite, Electrify (lol). I know that there are more ailments or things you could count as ailments like Damned, Plague, Spreading Flames, etc. and also the non-damaging ones like Chill, Slow, Armour Shred, etc. but let’s just stick with the “big 6” for now. :wink:

Giving ailments an interesting and unique identity is hard, we all know that. It’s even harder to make them useful instead of useless or overpowered. Here are my ideas how to change them to give them a unique and (hopefully) fitting identity. (Note: I understand that EHG are pretty set on their vision of their mechanics, but maybe some of my ideas are still interesting to you nonetheless). Btw I didn’t really check the Forum if anyone already made these or similar suggestions, so yeah… :sweat_smile:

Oh yeah please remember that all numbers I’m going to use are simply placeholders and would of course need to be balanced. They’re just there to give you a rough idea about the theme of the ailments!

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Bleed:
Right now Bleed and Ignite are the most generic and boring ailments in the game. At least that’s how I feel. Ignite even more than Bleed as the latter has some interactions with certain skills like consuming all bleed stacks.

If I think about Bleed in an ARPG I think about cutting or piercing something and the bigger the blade the bigger the Bleed! :wink: This means that (in my opinion) Bleed should reflect that in its mechanics. (I know that spells can inflict bleed too, especially some Acolyte spells are strongly themed about blood and bleed).

To make Bleed feel somewhat unique the following change(s) would, at least in my opinion, be thematically fitting: Add a portion of the weapons base damage to the base damage of Bleed. This would reflect the “The bigger the blade, the bigger the Bleed”.
For example, lets say Bleed has a base damage of 50. Now you add 20% of the base damage for 1-handed weapons, 30% for bows and 40% for two-handed weapons on top of that (only base damage, not flat damage from affixes).
Please remember that these numbers can be adjusted!
For spells you could simply give Blood-Type spells a native increased bleed effectiveness or something like that.
Of course it would also be nice to have the whole “moving enemies take X% increased bleed damage” thing, but we don’t want to copy a certain other game, right? :wink: Something like “You have X% increased leech rate against bleeding enemies per stack of bleed up to a maximum of Y%” would be thematically fitting too imo.

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Poison:
Oh yes, everyones favourite ailment. Poison! :muscle:
I think poison is fine the way it is right now.
At least it adds something besides just damage.
The mechanic is fitting too, like the more Poison you have in your body the deadlier.
The fact that Poison has a low base damage is fine too because of the same reason.
To me Poison is like a “death by a thousand cuts” ailment.

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Ignite:
Right now Ignite is simply boring. Doesn’t do shit besides damage.
To me Ignite should cause panic in your enemies.
To reflect this I would suggest the following: Give enemies a chance to miss if they are ignited. Not like the Blind ailment but a chance to miss like when you dodge.
To make it less abusable the following mechanic could work: Ignited enemies have a X% chance to miss (as in you “dodge” the attack similarly like with dodge rating).
This chance is increased by ignite effect with Y% increased effectiveness.
That way characters that invest in Ignite and Ignite effectivness will really profit from it.
Don’t make it (meaning the miss chance) scale with ignite stacks!
You could also make add something like “if an enemy reaches X ignite stacks they are feared for Y seconds. The duration is increased by ignite effect.” or something similar.
I know a lot of people associate Fire and Ignite simply with damage but to me there is always a panic aspect about beeing ignited.
I mean who keeps a calm head and fights like nothings wrong while beeing on fire? :wink:

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Shock:
So Shock is kind of weird…
It does not directly do damage but acts like the shred ailments.
I think it’s fine the way it is but it’s just another shred ailment.
I will talk about possible ways to make it feel more unique in the Electrify section.

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Frostbite:
Cool concept but I feel like cold type ailments are the worst ones to make them work.
Chill is very cool (pun intended) but I want to talk about Frostbite.
The thing about cold related ailments is they always slow and/or freeze.
The problem is that giving them a flat chance to freeze can be way too strong and scaling the freeze chance with damage or in this case frostbite stacks can result in the ailment being useless.
It’s nice that it does damage but the real identity of this ailment is the fact that it reduces freeze avoidance. The problem is that trash enemies die before you can freeze them and bosses can’t be frozen reliably (especially after the Gaspar Helmet nerf) because that would be too strong. So freeze is always in a weird spot in every game. I still feel like this game does a pretty interesting job and the idea is nice!
The only thing I can think of that would be thematically fitting would be something like chilling enemies and enemies around the target per X stacks of Frostbite. This would mean that characters that use Frostbite don’t have to also invest into chill (even tho they probably get chill chance somwhere in the passives anyway) and it also synergizes with the whole Freeze Rate per stack of Chill thing. Radius could increase per Y stacks up to a maximum.
Like every 10 Frostbite stacks the enemy receives a stack of Chill (up to 3 maximum of course) and for every 30 stacks enemies around the target also receive a stack of chill. Radius could scale with effectiveness up to a maximum.

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Electrify:
Why does this exist? Seriously? Why?
To fit the theme of lightning skills I would suggest the following: Remove Electrify and change Shock (or remove Shock and change Electrify, doesn’t matter lol).
Lightning skills are already pretty good at AoE clearing, so either stick with that theme or use the ailment to increase single target DPS.

AoE theme: If an enemy reaches X stacks of Shock/Electrify they send out lightning arcs to up to Y enemies around them dealing lightning damage. The damage and number of targets scales with shock effect.
Basically this means that once an enemy reaches X Shock stacks the stacks are consumed and enemies around them are zapped like a small lightning blast or static arc.

Single Target theme: If an enemy reaches X stacks of Shock/Electrify they are hit with Lightning Bolt. Just like with the AoE version the stacks would be consumed and the enemy hit by a strong lighting bolt from the skies.

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So yeah, these are just some suggestions and I’m sure I forgot a lot of what I wanted to say and I sometimes wrote things in a confusing way but it’s late and I’m tired. :wink:
I just wanted to give some feedback after all the time playing the game because I feel like the game might take a turn into the wrong direction and I really like the game obviously.
But I will talk about other, more important things that need improvement in another thread…

For now please discuss and share your ideas about ailments, I’m excited to hear about it! :+1:

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I think all the ailments other then bleed and ignite are fine, I like electrify and shock being different as currently electrify is really niche and not a “Core” ailment. Anyone can stack generic poison chance on weapons and try and play a poison build, it probably wont be good, but its a possibility. Electrify is unique in that it can only be obtained by sentinel skills or at a low value on melee hit from a unique that interacts with sentinel stuff. its sorta like timerot, its doin its own thing.

Ignite and bleed just need some unique mechanics that make them interesting, it does not even have to be damage just something to make them divergent from each other and not just “fire version of bleed” and “baseline bleed”

Mir gefallen deine Vorschläge. Ich empfinde die Ailments im derzeitigen Zustand ebenfalls als recht trist.

Hard disagree on this one. Shock also increases chance to be stunned which may not seem like much for bosses but makes clear much smoother. My Javelin paladin can’t ditch Stormtide for the chunky stuns and I even have shock chance affix on my Warpath FG which doesn’t even do lightning dmg. Its fun to stun annoying big hitting mobs like Osprix meteor mage, big spin guys, big fire tanks, necrotic boulder throw, etc.
Lightning being the only damage type with an easy access shred that can scale well with inc effect makes it unique (For eg: Lightning Flame reave has more synergy than Fire bcos shock and shock effect in spellblade tree).

Electrify and Frostbite are the niche damaging ailments. Frostbite needs the boots to even deal decent damage and electrify is also locked to a few skills/uniques and mostly for the sentinel class only. Damned is also an ailment just like them (damaging + infinite stacks) but it doesn’t even get noticed as there is barely any support for it and it is locked for only Acolytes.

I agree with your points on bleed and ignite being worse than poison (though ignite also has the deal damage immediately and consume stacks like bleed puncture with enchant weapon)

Don’t forget Time Rot.

Hi, I really like the idea to give each ailment a unique feel by adding a characteristic to it beside damage. Many already have this like shock, which reduces lightning resistance and makes targets more susceptible to stuns. Stuns are just not popular / in a good place right now, but then again there could be some nice class synergies in multiplayer.

I think ailment effects should be scalable, otherwise you will end up just applying low amounts of the ailment to reach the desired effect, like for frailty or doom.

Also, I thought of bleed applying crit vulnerability. Would be fine thematically, because the target is weakened. And I just love the idea to make hybrid ailment/crit builds, because it would add a fourth way to design builds.

Right now there are 1 ailments, 2 crit, 3 raw damage (rare). The new idol unique already supports raw damage without crit builds.

My suggestion for Ignite would be an AoE DoT. More stacks of ignite increases the radius and damage. I picture it like a Fire Aura that attaches to the mobs. What would be even better would be if the damage inside the “aura” scaled the closer to the ignited enemy others were. Would also be thematic if Ignite had innate proliferation. Fires spread afterall.

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That’s the Spreading Flames ailment.
https://lastepoch.tunklab.com/ailment/spreadingflames

Yea, that shouldn’t be a thing. It is pretty bad in it’s design. A single stack that does all the damage at the end of the 4 second duration. I say just get rid of that and roll the spreading part onto ignite.

It also seems like the only thing that does it is a couple nodes in the Fireball tree and the Cinder Song unique which isn’t very good.

That’s not what Spreading Flames does. The “deals all damage at end” is for Future Strike.
https://lastepoch.tunklab.com/ailment/futureattack

Yea, I have no idea what I saw there, but spreading flames is still garbage. Not enough ways to inflict it and a single instance makes it not worth the cost.

I agree completely.

Bleed:
I don’t like the idea of bigger blade = bigger bleed but agreed something should be done. Maybe additional power increase for each 5 stacks of armor shred applied or % of phys penetration? It fits this ailment power fantasy more, i think.
Poison:
It’s great right now, agreed.
Ignite:
I think the best would be if each ignite increase damage of non-ignite fire damage applied so fire skills would benefit from highier stacks of ignite. So something similar to poison but completely different, you stack high ignite to increase damage of hits. Curious how it would perform.
Shock:
Shred + increased chance to crit shocked enemies wouuld be enough, lightning is often connected to crit in other rpgs.
Frostbite:
I think it is okay the way it is.

Just couple of my ideas :slight_smile:

When I imagine someone bleeding out, they get fatigued and weak. Maybe bleed stacks could reduce the damage dealt by the entity that is bleeding. This would also make bleed a lot more potent against the player though.

Time rot has a limit of 12 stacks which is why I didn’t mention it. I think Bleed, Poison, Ignite Electrify, Frostbite and Damned are the only unlimited stacking and damaging ailments. I guess some builds use time rot to supplement dmg with other void DoTs while these ailments except for Damned can be the main damage source for builds.

Maybe if Damned gets some unique support like frostbite (All frostbite builds are carried by snowdrift), it too can become a main source of damage for builds though Lich already has decent support for bleed and poison and some for ignite so would be weird having another DoT there.

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On the other hand Plague which is basically the same thing but poison damage is much more popular. Probably thanks to having better sources of '‘chance to apply’ and ‘increased effect’ (plague bearer staff, idols, Spirit plague skill etc.).

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