Does that actually mean something when viewed through your blinders?
Both concepts sounded good to me.
This didnât age well, though 
Stick to your vision EHG. Donât listen too much to community desires. You know best, what systems you want in your game⌠oh wait⌠
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That post aged just fine. Me from 4 years ago stands by that post, the whole post.
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Wow that original thread was from 2018, interestingly right away theres a link to GGGs trade manifesto written by Chris in 2017 when he was actually involved with development instead of collecting cards, its actually well written and touches on every point in this thread but this was written regarding players wanting an âauto tradeâ style system like an AH
Its a massive manifesto, key points:
-They want players to be able to trade but they didnt really at first (no trade windows, no APIâs for shops etc)
-Items are extremely important to be able to trade and progress and better gear is a sign of progression
-Big on player ownership of items
-Trade should be difficult
-Automation problems
Heres the thing, GGG knows players and I quote âEasy trade reduces the number of times a character improves their items.â this is not true on a new league character, you upgrade continually, on second/third character where you have established gear this is largely true
The fundamentals is they think trade makes the game too easy but they know it has to exist and repeatedly kept up with player demand, they added in SSF and STILL allow people to exit anytime into trade league, and the final:
âEasy trade means reducing drop rates
Compare two hypothetical games. In the first game, trade is very difficult. The majority of items that canât be used by your character are not traded to other people. In the second game, trade is very easy. Many of the items that you canât use are traded to other people for items that you can. In the second game, because of trade, you have a much higher acquisition rate of useful items. While that sounds great if you want instant gratification, in reality it means that the second game either receives reduced drop rates relative to the first, or ends up being a whole lot easier and less challenging to achieve goals inâ
He is basically saying trade = easy mode but there is also reduced drop rates. Which is meaningless in games where bosses drop the best loot on a fixed lootable on a dice roll, reduced drop rates dont affect the pinnacle content anyway
Reducing drop rates in LE means slightly less Fire resistance shards, you get guaranteed exalt/rune/glyph drops from monoliths anyway, really does 400% rarity do ANYTHING?
I want trade as its a better experience for the player, but I was really keen to see the shitstorm of trade problems and how this game was going to handle it but instead they took the dev route and made it a better experience for them (way less hassles)
Realistically LE needs about 3-5 more years of content for a robust trading system, theres nothing to support it and for about the 6-8th time ever; Gold should of just been straight either removed or replaced with âTimeline currencyâ you know something unique to your gameâŚ
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Hey Mike,
I Donât know how to understand your response.
Because
â We want trading with an economy, although with some restrictions â
Is a bit different than
â We think trading and economy has too many downsides and we think LE is a better game without â
These two messages I get from EHG, although one (yours) might be a more personal stance while the other is an official statement from the company.
For me personally itâs hard to distinguish between the two. Until today both messages were both from EHG and the opposite of each other.
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You have pretty much no clue do you? 1 tank + 3 DDâs who donât need to care for anything but âDonât stand in shit!â steamroll the game. The worst outliers that a solo player can build right now times 4 IS steamrolling the game and mae it a walking simulator.
IF they balance the builds that are strong in solo play because they are broken op godlike in MP they are worthless in solo play. EHG canât balance the solo game according to MP because if the do so every build who is able to solo content fast right now would be totaly bonkers in MP.
Just stop try to be smart for once it gets embarresing.
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Not necessarily, it depends on the specific examples youâre talking about. Take poison for example, even just capping the resist shred to 30 stacks (from memory), that wonât make it âworthlessâ in solo, but it will be significantly less effective than it currently is for the builds that are currently nuts in solo.
IMO, if what you say/are worried about does happen, that would be either excessive âbalancingâ or just doing it wrong.
It could happen, certainly, and itâs reasonable to be concerned about it.
Yeah, it would be interesting to know if EHG would still like to have an economy but havenât quite figured out how to do it without also needing to junk the drop rates. Without them saying that, youâd kinda have to take the more recent post over the older one (unfortunately).
And mobs will die faster (as a separate thing to the incoming damage being spread between more players), especially the tougher mobs (since trash mobs will die very quickly anyway).
To be fair, Iâd quite like an AH.
erm⌠no?
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Same happens in every Hack and Slay and in every balance cycle. There are always best builds and builds that are trash. âWorhtlessâ is the wrong word give or take letâs call it: âSome builds will underperform a lot to an extend you might not even kill one enemy in an expirienced MP group and youâll have a (much) harder time solo.â . This happened to every hack and slay I played and continued in every season I droped in and most likely will continue on.
First off, those arenât even in danger. Quit with the hyperbole on this matter. Simply make any item that has been crafted become âboundâ to that account and untrade/sellable, then you eliminate the vast majority of the items, and market flooding, people are crying about. Itâs not rocket surgery. Sure, LP items could still be traded, but I sincerely doubt people will buy them, just to NOT craft them. And, if they do? Who cares? 99.999999999% of the time, they will be bought, crafted and removed from the economy.
Letâs not kid ourselves. This isnât a game that will have 100s of 1000s of players, playing 18 hours a day, flooding the market with 4LP and Tier7 exalts. Ultra rare items will still be ultra rare⌠Whatâs it been now? Over a year since LP was introduced? I have 1 3LP and 0 4LP items. And most of my 2+ LP items are on common trash uniques. Worrying about the 0.0001% chance worst case scenario (that 3 and 4LP rares, and T7 Exalts will flood the markets), and sculpting the game around it is moronic, at best.
I swear. This worst case scenario, doomsaying, that so many of you are doing, is just like arguing with a 4 year old. Itâs not reality, itâs some made-up fantasy, that now we have to deal with, becauseâŚin your mindâŚyou have crafted the worst possible thing imaginable, and made it the most common scenario.
And, as far as âat the expense of EHGs visionâ, letâs not forget, their initial vision involved a game-supported trade⌠not dissimilar from a bazaar or AH. So, if anything, this bastardized D3 party-only gift system is at theexpense of their vision.
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Just as LEâs will be⌠as soon as you put something out there people try to get the best possible outcome in every way shape or form. Humans are simply exploitive beeings and I canât think of any failsave that worked 100%.
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Can you point me to the exact time EHG appointed you their personal champion? Iâm just curious why you feel the need rush to their rescue.
Once again, youâre inventing your own reality, passing it off as the most common scenario, and using that to defend your position. Weâve run all around this bush, hearing about RMT, players not playing the game, impossible loot drop balancing and now weâre back to the nebulous loopholes that will ruin the game.
Iâm just curious if you have any real instances of games that were completely ruined, were too boring to play or outright failed, simply because of trade. Not games that failed for other reasons and had trade, but a game that failed simply due to the concept of trade (and no, D3 does not count, because it was the RMT AH that doomed it, not trade itself).
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Because every almost 100% abuse proof system in the was⌠wait for it⌠waaaaaaait for iiiiit⌠abused.
On top of that silly comment something more on the serious side of things. Iâll answer the why part. I look at things differently and I have different things that are important to me. This leads to different philosophies and first of all I think there should be a saystem in place that benefits as many as possible people and that is hard by itself.
When the devs answer the thread and tell us theyâll (or not) work on trade/gifting or whatever itâll be called and put a system in place we can test it and try to make it 100% abuse proof and fail misrebale while we are at it even when we think it is abuse proof.
As I advocated elswhere⌠I just want trade up to (non crafted) rares as well as 0LP uniques and set items. Everything else should only be transfereable due the gifting system in place. This might lead to a faster completion of the story part but every meaningfull drop must be farmed.
No need to change droprates⌠no need to change gifting and make all the workhours meaningless⌠aquisition of items come from gameplay not from âtradeâ (while gifting is kind of the same thing in a group that works togheter). Noone looses anything but some hours of tutorial aka story part most people donât care for anyway.
Not having those didnât mean they didnât want to. It simply meant that they had a small dev team and adding those things were a lower priority than adding content.
Iâm not sure how these two are even compatible. But I guess maybe it depends on what you meant by âGGG trading systemâ?
We really like the GGG trading system a lot and want that same sort of market to happen.
Youâre right though, we are trying to avoid gold sellers being a thing.
I donât know how they could be compatible either. 4 years ago, I wasnât trying to suggest that they were either.
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I disagree with that. If theyâd have got rid of the RMAH but kept the GAH they wouldnât have changed the drop rates. They might have still added some version of smart loot where attributes only spawned on relevant items, but the core issue of shity drops would have remained because the reason for that (free trade) remained.
You might not want to think that drops need to be balanced around trade, but EHG (and GGG & Blizzard) do.
4 years ago you thought +skills were impossible, Iâm sure you can do it. 
Just work Kain a bit harder, itâs not like he needs time off or sleep, or even food really.
Almost all server sided hack and slays work this way while P2P games work like a charm with trade and untouched droprates ^^. Iâm not sure what to think of it and if trade or droprate âbalancingâ is just an excuse to stretch game content where non is besides the good old treatmill.
Donât get me wrong I like hack and slays but imagine every ARPG you played with a D3 like item shower⌠non of these whouldâve lasted a long time because everyone and their grandma would be done with the game in 1 day because hack and slays deliver no content and only âlittleâ replayability if you arenât into mindless grind.
Personally I would probably say that p2p games are balanced around the assumption that most people will play them as offline/single player so the drop rates have to be appropriate to that. While can be an online element to them, I think thatâs more likely to be treated as a secondary concern vis-a-vis trade. After all, if online/multiplayer was going to be a primary concern, theyâd have closed/servers (even D2 did over 20 years ago).
The drop rates werenât necessarily the problem. It was the drop-logic code, that they later altered. Most drops players got werenât useful for their selected class. THAT was the real issue. I gathered more than enough rare/set/legendary items prior to the D3 revamp, but none of them were useful for my given class at the time â I was playing a Mage, and had so many Witch Doctor/Demon Hunter items, I was drowning in them.