Feedback

So I’ve finished the campaign and a bunch of the mof storyline so I’m ready to share some feedback

I really enjoy building my character. Lots of items, lots of skill tree choices to make with cool skills, crafting that lets me build an item I want but haven’t found yet. No complaints only praise.

Some really cool endgame bosses with mechanics that remind me a bit of Lost Ark and I love the boss fights in that game. No complaints these boss types and mechanics should be reserved for endgame.

The campaign was ok but I don’t play arpgs for story. I’m neither here nor there.

My issue with the game is difficulty or lack thereof and MoF repetitive content. D2 LOD and grim dawn are my all time fav arpgs because I can increase the difficulty of the campaign which does more than just increase HP and damage and is far less repetitive than most endgame systems in modern arpgs like MoF in LE or nightmare dungeons in D4 or greater rifts in D3 or maps in PoE. Hell mode on D2 was pretty bloody hard when I first stepped into it. I don’t expect it on launch. D2 was bare bones on launch but I vastly prefer it over the repetitive endgame content that has become the norm since D3 and PoE.

Anyways that’s my 2 cents so far. Really great job so far and I look forward to seeing how this game evolves with time.

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I agree with most of your observations. Even the point on repetitiveness of MoF. Generally, I’ve found alterholics to have enjoyed LE early access more as opposed to minmaxers like myself.

But your point on the superior endgame of D2 LOD baffled me though. D2 has no real endgame activities to speak of afaik. How can infinite Baal/mephisto/Pindle runs compare with properly structured endgames in modern ARPGs?

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The entire hell campaign and beyond was endgame for me. Very difficult ramp on monsters. Rare monsters with unique effects. Uber bosses. Endgame items like runewords. To me this is far superior.

but it was the same exact content you did in normal and NM, just with random immunities and higher scaled mobs.

So really, hell mode is like juicing your mono corruption to a point that you have the same exact difficulties.

There’re also some builds that are just very strong and trivialize the base-content, but are designed to push higher corruption. Kinda like just doing non-enigma Hammerdin on D2 and just saying “Idk game’s too easy”. Meanwhile that guy leveling java-zon without any endgame uniques and just not using LF (think that was the skill?) is saying the exact opposite.

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NM was like new game+ and hell was like New game++. It prevents the mid-late game grind from being overly repetitive unlike pretty much every arpg since D3 and PoE.

Hell mode is an entire campaign where mono is repetitive maps with some cool bosses to fight. Back then the bosses in D2 were very cool and fun to fight. Obviously by todays standards they are basic but that wasnt the case back then.

D2 had many builds that could trivialize content. They were gear dependent though and if you didnt have the gear moving up in game difficulty would make the monsters very dangerous. Im sure you remember Rakanishu. If you’ve got the gear you’re either insanely lucky, been playing for a long time or bought the gear.

Anyway I didn’t come here to get into an argument. We obviously disagree on this and should agree to disagree.

Yeah I won’t ever understand how repeating the same acts w/ the same monsters scaled up isn’t “overly repetitive”. If you enjoyed it more, maybe there’s something else underlying that made it more fun, and that’s more to look at (or just nostalgia idk) but it’s the definition of repetitive. And I’ve never heard anyone trying a melee build who thought hell Raki on early playthroughs was fun. Melee just skip him.

But agreed, it’s not like I’m going to change your mind on anything, nor should I try to. Just wanted to point out what seems very odd in your example of what was fun. Maybe just a bad example, idk. If you can find a way to have fun, that’s all that matters. Personally I wouldn’t want the campaign to be any harder so just tossing that hat in the ring.

I agree somewhat, I do feel I’d like to be able to push through the campaign a second time with my characters rather than just stuck in ‘endgame.’ This is one thing Grim Dawn does really well (though could probably get by with 2 difficulties rather than 3), it’s fun to run through the campaign and it’s fun to do it again with your build more complete.

Of course, a lot of people don’t like campaign and just want ‘endgame,’ but I’m an altaholic and really enjoy the progress through the campaign with each char to see how they tackle it and compare.

Now, whether LE has an engaging enough campaign to make me want to go through it again, I’m not quite decided (I’m only levelling my third character now). Grim Dawn adds a lot to it through optional bosses, hidden areas, shrines and Nemesis, I haven’t seen that in LE…yet.

I think this is just the differences in design.

Grim dawn is very much designed as a single player game that has a start, and end. Ive never really felt like grimdawn would or should have an end game, ive only played 50 hours or something, but to me grimdawn felt like its own inclusive thing rather then being comparable to a live service game like LE or PoE.

this is similar to D2 vs D3 and later, D3 and later put an emphasis on seasons and live service vs being a game that had a start and a finish.

NM is the easiest mode in D2. Normal is harder because you don’t have enough skill points to get your build going. But NM is a breeze for any non-melee build, even with crappy gear because your build is online and you usually just delete monsters.
Hell is only hard because of immunities and the resistances penalty.

There were many builds that finished hell with crappy gear. Sorc didn’t need much to finish hell and there have been plenty of naked necro runs finishing hell without any gear at all.

I love D2. I still play it to this day, whether it’s D2R or PD2 (the latter is much superior though). But once you were done with the campaign, you either made a new char or you endlessly farmed the same 2-3 zones. It was still fun, but it was also very repetitive.

If you were to compare D2 with LE, the main difference is that D2’s campaign is much much longer (all 3 difficulties), but the endgame was just farming campaign bosses or collecting keys for ubers. While LE’s campaign is much shorter but gives you more diverse things to do after that (monos, dungeons, arena, with more to eventually come as well).

I find it interesting we seem to have this dichotomy between ‘singleplayer’ vs ‘seasonal online’ that they cannot co-exist. It is only that both haven’t been executed well enough yet to work.

Grim Dawn has plenty of endgame, though if Crate took up ‘seasons’ and expanded on Shattered Realm it could be interesting in that seasonal space too (there are community made seasons which were actually pretty well done). But devs don’t want to and that’s fair enough, it’s a lot of work and management.

PoE gives no reason to redo or re-experience the story once through it (same for LE at this point I find). The campaign is your ‘leveling process’ rather than something thoroughly fun to explore / re-explore.

LE, I think, sits in a pretty good position because it has a reasonably varied campaign setting with PoE-like endgame system with replayability (and hopefully without the horrible economy meta game). I think if LE saw more expansion in the single player journey, it could seriously provide for both audiences as the gameplay loop, build flexibility and gear system is fairly strong already:

  • add a second, harder playthough that you can push towards L100 with if you prefer that over MoF.
  • add more lore exploration (e.g. Grim Dawn’s lore notes, PoE’s shrines). I think this is a weak point in LE, that you don’t ‘learn’ much about the world you’re in, it’s all questlines and a few NPC comments.
  • Add something unique to chase in the story (e.g. boss farming in D2, Totems/Nemeses/secrets in GD)
  • And of course keep adding classes, skills and items, giving more incentive to become an altaholic

I know that takes time and money, but hopefully LE is successful enough to expand the story content among other things and really give that best of both worlds game…

I was going to ask this. PoE had the exact same problem (for me) before it introduced Oriath & chapters 4-9 (10?).

Yeah, they have started that with the clickable lore things in the first chapter. Hopefully they can/will expand upon it throughout the rest of the campaign.

And character slots (yes, I know more of these should be coming in 1.0).

I think this change solved the wrong problem and continued a trend (that D3 went all in on beforehand) that took a lot of followers: the idea that the campaign is a once-and-done thing.
The issue, imo, with PoE (and D3)'s campaign was there’s nothing extra to do or real incentive to replay it. You do all the quests, get your passives, lose your resists, then do maps.

If I could go to certain areas to target farm gear/skill gems, fight unique bosses, find new special challenge areas, etc, it’d be fun to come back through the career with a stronger character. Instead the thought seemed to be “oh, people only like end-game and the story is just the punishing warm-up we need to push them through.”

And so other games follow this design idea, misguidedly. It links to the other idea that we should have free respec across the board. People, without realising it, just want a isometric brawler with loadout customisation (which D3 was pretty much). Seasonal play, with the ‘rush to top of ladder’ approach also doesn’t help the perception here.

That’s good, hope it continues.

Yes & no. Titan Quest and Grim Dawn did that and had discoverable things that only spawned or were only doable in the higher difficulties. That said, after doing the campaign (such as it was, only 4? chapters) so many times in PoE I got bored of it.

So while I understand where you’re coming from, after enough times through the campaign I disagree.

I’ve to disagree to be honest, because one of the absolute worst aspects which i hate about Diablo 2 LOD and Grim Dawn nowdays, despite them two counting as two of my favorite ARPG’s of all time ist the whole 3-Difficulty-Replay-Bullshit, because it makes it even more repetitive because the order you play is the exact same (run from the some quest to quest, from the same area to areas) each character, and it also ‘highly’ devalue the Campaign and Story of it. Because this type of games you often play (or atleast encourage) for it’s replaybility as well Endgame means both starting out new characters and level them up for new builds but also in the endgame where you focus to finalize / perfect them. That means you might start over a few character, but not because you want to enjoy the Campaign or Story again, but try new builds. And now imagine to give you a different example: Steak is your Favorite food, but you have to eat a few weeks straight, not because you are hungry for steak but you’re forced to eat it because nothing else is left?! How long do you geniunly think it will remain your Favorite Food if you’ve to eat it each day? I’d argue most people would throw the towel after 3 days or so… and some might even go completly sick on it.

And that’s the thing about Grim Dawn… i’m at 1000 Hours Gameplay, but these days i can’t enjoy the Campaign or Parts of it’s Story fully anymore - because if you even want to play atleast each class once (and that’s not considering the various class combinations and build variety in the same class-combo) for 9 Classes with a Dual-Class-System it means atleast 5 Characters to play, and that means you’ve to replay TOTAL 15 Times. The exact same story, in the exact same order (with only a little bit of variations if it comes down to choose which sidequests first) in the same route how you run the maps. Over and Over and Over again. That’s why even Crate added tools with the skip-merits and now the ‘finish normal to unlock ultimate instantly’ because it does become an issue for quite some people.

Diablo 3 have qute some stuff which i didn’t like and were fair criticism is, but one thing they certainly nailed in it’s core idea is how to tackle the situation. You’ve chapter-select where you can give yourself if you’re into that, a new-game+ system, or if you are more free-spirted pick chapters in a free order which you like - or an Adventure Mode which is completly Sandbox mode, where you can on your free and own will decide how to grind up a new character, running areas in any order, doing bosses in any order engage in bounties or doing rifts etc.
And the difficulty system is also kinda cleverly implemented due it’s not really playthrough related, though here was the issue that it was to bloated in the end with the torment like 16(?) or so, that’s to much - and there would have been a fewer but more distinctive and meaningfull variations better. And also i feel to point out, the Reason why D3 can’t fully embrace / use it’s potential of this concept is also because leveling new characters are kinda boring in D3, due no skillstrees, no real variation when you progress through your character because each playthrough with the same class feels the exact same - exact same order of unlocking skills and runes, no real tinkering with skillpoints/talentpoints etc etc. So the irony on this is - while they fixed one aspect they shifted a similiar issue to another. But the core-concept of how playthrough and difficultys work and the idea behind it was amazing, and D4 is definitely a step back from that (like yes you can skip campaign atleast that, but for people who want to enjoy ng+ they got kinda screwed).

But anyway you’ve a choice, and that’s when i do the campaign / story in Diablo 3 - despite of having a similiar amount of hours than in GD (and let’s not start D2 - 12 years playing it on and off, most likely still my most played game today) and despite that we could have a debate about the content of it’s story, it’s still an enjoyable experience to me because I can decide when i want to dig it and when not, → not when game forces me 3 times in a row only so i can enjoy it’s gameplay content of leveling characters, doing build and enjoy endgame.

Also as a sidenote - while i’m already push that contoversal take another hot take which might get me hate for. That’s also a reason why i find each game like this (ARPG and such), maybe not ‘forced’ as some games does but atleast as an option, should have Levelscaling for Enemies. Because it really annoys me (up to even kinda hate it); and sorry for the theatralic wording because i don’t know how to express it better in english; being caged like a lion in the Endgame - when only being limited to a few areas or maybe a certain endgame mechanics of a big world with alots of areas, because earlier areas don’t scale and so makes them become absolute meaningless and useless except for the people who are on a powertrip and need to roflstomp it just for a mere number (level) [and sorry for the harsh way to put it, normally i wouldn’t ‘diss’ people on that, but how often i’ve seen people are offended over the mere concept of suggestion adding an “optional” level-scaling option for all areas drives me kinda to also throw out some punches and being sorry but not sorry]. I want even in the endgame that early areas are meaningfull, that you can level and grind there for stuff, and prove my strength based on my build and such. Imagine a 5 slice pizza each with their own topping but at the time you get home with it you only can enjoy one piece because the other 4 went cold (for whatever reason).

//Edit:
Also before people start arguing about: But hey you’ve 1000 hours into the game it’s obvious that at one point something starts to become boring. Sure, you’re correct. But my point here is rather that it is an factor of proper dosage. My Argument is that - agian another example, that you can potentially watch your (favorite) Movie 50 times, but spread out in 50 years - meanwhile when you watch said movie 50 times in 1-2 weeks you are so oversaturated that you might NEVER watch it again. → Or it might not be as special anymore. But if it’s occassional / dosed correctly that helps immensely.

15 Times of playing a campaign/story when you are hungry for it spread out over the period of time of your liking (like 15 years) hits differently than replaying it for 15 times in a shorter period because you have to… and not even for 15 characters but for 5 due 3-difficulty-playthrough per character. (I mean if it’s per character once it’s much more bearable in that regard).

//Edit 2:
And another thing to specify here, it’s not just the timeframe and regularity which is part of it, but also intention factors hugely into it. I’m pretty sure some people might go with my example and say: “Duh i drink coffee each day and love it” or “i do eat this almost each day and still love it”. (though than again for some people in case of coffee there might be an argument to be made about they’ve too drink it otherwise they won’t funtion that day but that’s another topic) I don’t want to dismiss this, but in this example you’ve to factor in (as per my wording above) that you are hungry for it you want to. But Videogames get in this regard a bit more complex because people play them for different reasons, intentions etc. Like to this specific example some play it for story / campaign but some also just for the gameplay, endgame etc. If you geniunly want to replay a campaign 15 times in a row than there is a different intention than if you replay it because you wanna do different classes and builds… and that is the effect i’m talking about.

Actually, GD changed that with the recent patch. Once you finish the 3 difficulties with one character and buy the difficulty unlocks, with the new character you can run just once on Ultimate and any quest that rewards with stats will automatically reward for all 3. So for your 2nd character onwards you don’t need to play the campaign 3 times.

Personally, I hate level scaling. It’s one of the reasons I don’t feel compelled to go back to D4 anytime soon. One of the things I liked about D2 (or even PoE) is that, if you’re having trouble clearing areas close to your level, maybe because you’re undergeared, you can go to an area a few levels below and farm there.
With level scaling, if you have some bad RNG and don’t get decent gear, you have no place to go to farm it. You’re stuck with it. And if you’re having a good time killing stuff but don’t get the drops, you level a few times and suddenly you need more than a minute to kill trash mobs and they pimp slap you once and you die. That takes away all the fun and you’re left with no alternatives to get back up in power. Not to mention that you usually get a lot more power/level until about level 80ish and from then on every level gives you very little while the mobs keep being scaled.

Making it optional could be a solution to please everyone, but I don’t think it’s that easy to implement. And how would you solve the issue of groups where some have this option and some don’t? D4 is already a mess with their mixed scaling public areas.

Really agree, that would be my feedback to them aswell, focus on: difficulty → endgame (more endgame, LE needs its own elder & shaper, bosses that you farm 50-100 hours+++ before trying even trying them out) → rework classes graphics, some look super clunky compared to others.
Brand new LE player aswell, but i seen the same as you for sure :slight_smile:

Which i said / pointed out in my initial post with:

That’s why even Crate added tools with the skip-merits and now the ‘finish normal to unlock ultimate instantly’ because it does become an issue for quite some people.

^- And that certainly made it better. Still i’d argue Diablo 3 handled this the best, because you’re still forced to do atleast one run with your character in terms of the campaign / story, and not because you wanna enjoy / play the story because you’ve the adventure mode as option. And for people who stick to one character(which exist as well) and enjoy doing campaign over and over in case of D3 could go back to chap 1 infinitely.

To be honest, i’ve never had a situation with Level-Scaling (and mind i’m not like min-max most effective player but pretty average… ) where this happened what you point out, because don’t foget besides the free-adjustable difficulty-system in place which also helps, even with Levelscaling in mind devs tend to implement enemies so that it progress naturally. So if you go back to that type of enemies you tend to still have an easier time because they are more balanced around the initial encounter than to what they scale too, and also another thing which often tends to be forgotten, that your progress still matter, because you go back with more skillpoints put into skilltree which gives you as player more tools to fight them. Designers need to keep that in mind as well; what people can potentially do when they visit the areas and fight the enemies the first time, and adjust them (not just by it’s numbers like health and damage, but also attackpattern and such) accordingly. Like as a very basic example - just for the sake of it - imagine an ARPG where classes generally at level 15 or 20 get an movement-ability to dodge attack’s, it wouldn’t make sense to introduce monsters in pre-level-15-areas which do attacks which focus on you using a dodge ability - because than you as a player wouldn’t have the right tools to handle them and would be on a high disadvantage. So pre-level-15 monsters which designed accordingly without dodging in mind. Now imagine you get dodging and go back to the pre-level-15 areas areas, you’ll have an easier time to fight them, even if they scale towards your level HP and DMG wise, because you’ve a tool which they couldn’t interact with. So it doesn’t take away your total advantage over them, it’s just that they aren’t as pushover just because of a mere level-number and you still get rewards accordingly to your level (like exp but also lootdrops because they’re often for obvious reason also tied to the level of the enemies. Imagine you could get level 100 epic legendary unique in pre-level 15 areas and you can grind exp the same way as the 80-100 level areas… how many people would abuse this?)

That’s why i always find this kind of argument weird. I mean look at Grim Dawn as example… pre their balancing-patch which was long overdue. When you played normal and esp. veteran it AoM and FG content felt harder than Act 1/2 in Elite(and both scaled at the same level), because obviously the DLC / Expansion content even in the easier difficulty-modes with adjusted level was tinkered towards player who were geared up and leveled, meanwhile Basegame had a natural progression with certain level-ranges in mind. That’s why the dropped a patch to adjust early basegame monsters and such, give them a bit more steam so the curve is a bit better. (And inb4 - difficulty does matter if you play same level same areas obviously Norm/Veteran is easier)

But let’s stick to this and say - without level scaling. You struggle at level 20 area and go back to level 10 area. How does farming level 10 enemies which gives you quite less exp and drop you level 10 items help, with you struggling with level 20 enemies? Meanwhile if they’re levelscaled and you go back, and - like i mentioned above obviously even with level-scaling in mind mosnters are still by it’s design implemented to give you a sense of progress naturally so you can with you having access to more skillpoints so more advanced skills and such, beat them still easier - get better exp and better loot?!

But okay fair, if it’s your experience / opinion / taste i don’t intend to dismiss it… and also you surely can’t overlevel harder areas… But showcase it even more when introduce it needs to be added optional.

I’m not sure if it’s an issue in terms of implementation but rather group play. I mean ‘Level-Scaling’ can go in both ways, like downscaling. But Borderlands 3 as example (and gosh i already feel the heat again in my neck) did a pretty well job if it comes down to scaling. Despite people having different level - like lowlevel players does the “right amount of damage” but highlevel gets adjusted accordingly, still get for his level a fair amount of exp plus loot of his level, which and i’m 100% Serious was one of the best aspects in our group if it comes down to that. Because in past other games at one point it was like - we splitted up and didn’t play much together anymore because some poeple have much more time and leveld to far - which than ended up when they joined the lowlevels to trivilize the content for them which did become boring fast, meanwhile obvioulsy not every enjoy to rofl-stomp lowlevel paperbags which made for the highlevel players also kinda boring and they didn’t get even a reward. In BL3 however we could play most content most time (i’m not sure but i think enemies didn’t get downscaled so atleast highlevel areas didn’t work, but that could be purposefully for a different reason).

So from a technical PoV on an Individual Level mixed with group it’s not an issue, rather that let’s say you’ve 3 people who play with level scaling and one not - and said person rofl-stomps everything for the 3 people, but that’s up to them isn’t it? I mean general speaking you try to group with likeminded people anyway - like hardcoreplayers, or i’m pretty sure factions will also factor in. “How hard” it is to implement is a question which i can’t answer and you’ve to ask the likes of gearbox which did something like this. Though i personally “don’t think so” (so take it with a grain of alt) - my concern in regard of Last Epoch would be for now rather Ressources and Priorities. But for me generally i personally would hope in the long run, even if it’s in 3-4 years ( i mean GD also adressed some stuff later on as well) it would be cool to have some options like this. I mean → if we are about Difficutlys, they theoretically could also bundle it with the highest form of difficulty that in that difficulty level-scaling applies because than you’re pretty much endgame and i can’t imagine a lot of endgame players mind but rather appreciate… but whatever just my cents.

Thanks by the way for not “jumping” at me but be civil about it. Had worse experiences if it comes down to the debate of levelscaling. Esp. Steam can be a cesspool in this regard.

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This actually happened to me in D4. I had a sorc which was cleaning whole packs in a second but I didn’t get any decent weapon drops in more than 10 levels. Sure, I got new skills, but I didn’t have the damage upgrade from weapons, so at that point I was taking 20 seconds to kill a single trash mob and I had to constantly run around so I wouldn’t get slapped.
In a normal game, if I don’t have good drops for 10 levels and have a hard time killing level 20 mobs, I go back 10 levels to farm the weapons that should have dropped. It’s not about XPs, but about getting the tools to advance again.

Sure, PoE also has downscaling and it’s used for campaign carries. I just meant that it’s not so easy to implement area level scaling when you can have a level 20 with that disabled, a level 50 with it enabled and a level 70 with it disabled. How do you balance all that to make that area fun for all 3?
I don’t mean it can’t be done, just that it’s not a simple system to implement.

I have no issue with it, as long as it’s an option and it’s well balanced for group play. D4’s implementation wasn’t good and made group play clearly superior to playing solo, both in terms of speed and in terms of xps. They tried to balance it, but it’s a mess.

I usually only have an issue when people suggest things that HAVE to be that way or else the game sucks and whoever likes it another way sucks as well. If they suggest it as an option or as something they’d like to have, I don’t really mind and will be civil discussing it.