I feel crafting in this game is pretty damn good. Like the design and how it works, top notch! But I feel you need to address the situation of random cost runes.
Bill has armor with a T7 affix, he uses a removal rune it costs him 18 of his 32FP
Steven has a sword with a T7 affix he uses a removal rune as well, it costs him 1FP
That is not a shared user experience. This particular aspect of crafting should be a set value. All the runes/glyphs should be. You can get an item with 63FP, 2 runes later its sitting at 27, other times you hit it and itâs sitting at 59 the way you want it. The random aspect is fine when rolling the values or when using the removal rune itâs still a chance to hit your t7 and crush your heart for the next 4 hours but the fact every single person playing the same game, farming for items, spending hours, days and even weeks to find the craft they need then gets completely bent over vs some other lucky ducky who gets no FP penalties, hits the craft then duplicates the item, lucky ducky wins and other mate is left with no item, no dupe, nothing.
FP cost should be set, it also should NOT be as high as it can currently go for removal specifically or chaos, I mean chaos is a super random chance youâll hit and removal is a huge risk that youâll brick your item with 1 click.
Crafting is amazing, forge potential cost is ruthless and like I said everyone DESERVES to have the same experience when it comes to crafting. It should not boil down to luck when to get the item its RNG and hours/days of your life to get it already, hoping it drops with usable affixes or an open slot so you can work it, all that effort only to be bent over again by something rng based that should be a set value.
Rng to get item, rng to mod item, rng on the value of the rune/glyph - too much rng, itâs not fair and its part of the game that should be of equal value experience because once we finally get the item we really want which could take fricking agesssssss then we take it to the eternity cache and once again are faced with 1 guarentee and 3 more rng chances.
Please, for the people end the rng value of runes and glyphs, set them and exercise common sense when setting those, the majority of items do not drop with 60+ FP the generally drop 35-45 as a more common value.
I swear if anyone comes in and says they like how FP is right now and how it works I will Liam Neeson you Iâm online seasonal 9.5 hours a day, no one who plays a lot enjoys the sheer level of bricks theyâre getting. If you are set on random make it 1-7, max. shakes head
on one hand i would really love it if i can craft what i want with minimal friction.
but on the opposite side, theres always a monkey paw.
what would be the cost? would the devs make shard drop rates lower? would they make high FP items be much more rarer? would they make items drop with lower FP than before?
The only issue with fixed costs is simply that there is no middle ground. Either you make the fixed costs low enough that every single craft will always be a success, or you make it high enough that you will always need a 60+ FP piece to achieve success and every 50- piece will fail because it wonât have enough FP.
There is no variance, meaning you either always succeed, or always fail.
The craft wont be a guarenteed success mate. If its a fixed cost on the rune the other aspect of rolling a rune of removal stays the same - you can still mess it up and remove your tier 7 it doesnt matter if your rune costs 1 or 100FP - the issue is in the instance where you manage to hit your removal successfully or your chaos successfully but then get hit with a 20FP cost and you literally then canât carry on forging anything as you now have to hope adding an affix doesnt use another 10 or 15 and you end up with a tier1. If i had 100 items to craft with and lets say they all had 1 x t7 affix and 3 others, and I needed / wanted to remove 1 of those to add a usable one on all 100 items, the FP cost was say 7FP. I then on every item have a 1 in 4 chance of removing that T7 right? Thats at a fixed cost. Currently its the same odds but right now I can sometimes when lucky hit it for 1 and other, more often than not times itâll cost 15-20. Its the same thing theres no guarentee just because it costs less. Most items drop with 35-40FP. If you think having an RNG odds of 20FP on a removal is fair then mate, no idea. But like I also said if you played almost 10 hours a day like me you would see the sheer number of people who dislike the current system and its the only thing wrong with crafting. Your logic for once in all the timeâs weâve yarned on here makes no sense.
Everything will still be random other than the cost. The reason this part should be the same is someone might hit 20, someone might hit 1.
@Makszi RNG is different for everyone , thats the point. No one has the same RNG - ârandomâ Iâm not suggesting removing the RNG of the removal odds, the randomness of chaos being a crazy chance to actually turn it into what you want but the cost of the rune.
Then you also get more RNG when you take the item to use the eternity cache where sure you get one guarentee but then 90% of the time people are failing their important lp2 slams on lets say world splitter which Iâve had ONE this entire season, uber dropped it. Some people are lucky enough and have had 10, one dude had a dozen he said and heâd failed 10 of the 12 7/7 slams on it. So add that RNG to the RNG of crafting - I dont know why everyone who plays ARPGs think RNG is the only way it should be played, wild.
Anyways my feedback has been given if you wish to create your own thread for feed back saying you like crafting how it is go for it.
So if RNG is the problem but you donât want RNG removed, are you fixing the problem.
Honest question, but what would be the problem of removing FP completely? You canât craft exalted affixes, removal could still brick your item, chaos would still have limited number of tries, crafting legendaries would still be RNG in which affixes it takes, sealing affixes would still be an RNG crapshoot above t1. You would be able to keep rerolling the affixes in their tiers, but is that a bad thing? Youâd have to find enough of the runes to do that so that would be the limiting factor, or you could keep those two runes affected by FP. But Iâm not sure that being guaranteed to have 4xt5 affixes as early as the level requirements permit is a bad thing?
Iâm 99% sure that @Heavy wouldnât like it because there wouldnât be enough crawling naked over broken glass moments in crafting for him to enjoy the rare âwell done, RNGesus has randomly decided not to fuck you overâ moments.
Most crafts I do donât use removals at all, so as long as I can land the seal (which I use a lot more than removal), they become an automatic success.
I donât disagree with you in what you say, except for the existence of Havoc/Redemption. Not having FP would allow you to freely reroll exalted affixes forever. You would still be limited by their quantity, but that is a very soft limitation. It would definitely massively increase the amount of BiS double/triple exalted gear.
Personally, I wouldnât like a change like this simply for a single reason:
It would change LE from picking drops, crafting in 1 minute and either succeed or dump it on the ground, to a more PoE-like crafting where you stash the same piece of gear and work on it for a long time.
It would change from crafting while you play, into playing for the craft, which is something I dislike in PoE.
The solution there is to make that limitation more stringent.
If FP is the problem and removal of FP would be the potential solution (it isnât with the current crafting system, would need very deep-seated changes, but potentially viable nonetheless) then reduction of the drop-rate is what is to be done.
Generally⌠EHG finally needs to decide a baseline of time-investment for reaching specific crafts. They threw together a system willy nilly that works decent⌠but itâs not working decent because itâs designed well with intention⌠it works decent because they stumbled over the lucky combination, and you can see that clearly over time as the base situation changed but the adjustments were ill-fit.
We donât need FP or non-FP, we need a coherent rework of the whole itemization system at once. This means drop-rates and quantity and this means the aligned crafting systems on top.
Because the drop-rate itself sucks, acceptably so. But the alleviation method of crafting is unfitting for the drop-rate currently. And the âalternativeâ crafting method of LP slamming is just nonsensical positioned as well, specifically with the guaranteed 1 LP slam thatâs just a free pass especially for top-end uniques which likely wonât be acquired with more then 1 LP⌠if even.
Also:
I can absolutely agree with that!
But then EHG needs to design towards crafting being an auxiliary ânice to have sometimeâ method and not the majority of decent outcomes being stuck behind it.
This means a massive simplification of the drop-system.
So is that the goal to reach?
I donât know, but LE currently - sadly - is in the limbo in the middle. It sucks for those wanting to craft while playing⌠and it sucks for those wanting to play to craft. Nobody is even remotely happy when playing a single character long term.
The only timeframe it works is for the short-term players or the people never progressing into the min-max territory.
Yup, Iâd forgotten about those & thatâs fair, they would need to use FP as well, or be rare & thatâs what limits it.
Would it though? If the aforementioned havoc/redemption/rerolling affix values runes still used FP but removals/chaos/sealing/upgrading tiers didnât have an fp cost then youâd still be limited by the 5 tier crafting cap. Youâd craft the affixes up to t5 & thatâd be it, youâd still have limited uses on all the more powerful crafting.
I usually dislike systems where you have âexceptionsâ. That being said, I donât disagree with this. It would make glyph of order useless, since you could ignore that and endlessly reroll refinements instead, but then again, itâs already useless anyway.
Alternatively, you could change FP to EP (Exalted potential) and only crafts that affect exalted affixes reduce it (this would include refinement in it, though).
I do agree that at this point getting a 4xT5 even during campaign is moslty irrelevant for progression, since itâs easy enough to achieve and youâre more likely to run with a good T7 instead either way.
The âexceptionsâ are a common and useful thing though.
We only need to look over to âTorchlight Infiniteâ to see how that works. Itâs a âtieredâ crafting setup then.
In that game you can get a base, enforce a single T1 Affix to stay forever and then re-roll as long as you got crafting materials available without any cost to the item itself at all. The core crafting limitation is âPlasticityâ there and thatâs not touched in this way.
It is touched when you want to enforce 2 T1 Affixes on it, you want to target-craft specific Affixes on it rather then a random roll as well as doing a T1 to T0 upgrade at the cost of another - random - Affix on the item.
Those are not âexceptionsâ but instead a multi-layered crafting system which is set up entirely to alleviate the respective downsides at every stage.
This way you start with an item that has the drop level required and the Affix required and simply start rolling. If youâre not patient enough you start rolling solely with the base item until you get the respective affix even.
On the side? You still pick up new items since they can have âthe next stepâ already pre-rolled on it. The issue with the âhighly mutable drop systemâ as D2, PoE, LE and Torchlight have is that the chance of getting a great item is utterly miniscule.
Thatâs what crafting alleviates⌠it is mandatory to alleviate it to sustain this system without feeling like shit.
Remove that and you get a frustrated playerbase. You cannot reliably with effort get to the top, you can only do so with hitting a jackpot.
Itâs the core issue which GGG implemented in PoE 2 by removing alteration orbs. This was the reason why they implemented the Recombinator there, to alleviate this issue.
The point is that the same methodology needs to happen in some way in LE, but doesn't currently.
The drop-system enforces that you cannot get any good gear in a reliable way because of the sheer percentile chance for that specific drop to happen.
The crafting system is supposed to chance the percentile chance or alternatively enforce a time-limitation onto acquisition.
The current state is that we have a percentile based crafting system rather then a time-limitation one.
Percentile based means it has a percentile chance to work⌠or break. One shot at a craft. This percentile has to align with the acquisition rate thatâs supposed to happen.. It did in PoE 1 with version 1.2, which was the âmastersâ update. It upheld this ever since. Weâre talking about 20.08.2014 here as a specific date.
This is the earliest solution which was presented by another game then D2 to alleviate the RNG based drop system. The solution in D2 was the crafting mechanics creating a deterministic way to re-roll items, but was not intuitive yet.
Starting from that moment all large-scale ARPGs outside the Diabloe franchise implemented similar system methodologies for a reason since they have a lower upkeep need then the alternative.
Itâs always based on âmulti-levelâ systems. You have a percentile chance to acquire a specific outcome from the ground. This percentile chance then is alleviated by another - smaller scale - percentile chance from direct crafting in some way. Then you get a âsafety spotâ so to speak, unless âoverreachingâ you can then progress further from there without a chance of it âfailingâ anymore, a âbrickâ is impossible unless handled âwrongâ.
In PoE this is 3 T1 Suffix/Prefix. From there you can never loose while using mastercrafting. The only way to âlooseâ is corruption. Nowadays other methods can (realistically, as you can still avoid it with 100% guarantee) cause it as well, like Harvest crafting. But even that can be entirely alleviated with the usage of a âHinekoraâs Lockâ. It shows the outcome of any potential craft you do, so to change that outcome - which is obviously seeded - you need to chance the state of the item. Divine orb it for other rolls and the actual outcome will be a different one after.
In Torchlight Infinite it is âPrototype Craftingâ, with the only âbrickâ state possible if handled well being the âAffix Upgradeâ, which is supposed to be a gamble if you want to reach T0. Otherwise upgrading the âlastâ T2 Affix you wanna avoid is definitely a possible state. This means the regular process looks like this:
6 Affixes max.
1 is locked, 2 other ones need to happen randomly, and only those 2.
If they hit and a 3rd is there you Upgrade to T0 for a 25% to âhitâ. If not that item-step is âfinishedâ entirely.
Then you move to âTargeted Processingâ. You re-craft until your Affix hits T1.
Then you add a second one onto it and hope. If not repeat this until it does.
If you do itâs âdoneâ, you finish with an enchant.
All 6 Affixes are now âtop-tierâ through a targeted crafting mechanic which can never brick unless you âcorruptâ it through Affix upgrade to T0.
Those are the âbase itemsâ which are meant to be acquired in the game.
Now compare it to LE: What is the actual item state meant to be acquired?
We donât have one, which is an issue.
Is it T6 exalteds? Is it T7 exalteds? Is it perfectly rolled T7+T6 exalteds? Each of them can happen between 1 hour and 1000 hours, depending on base, affix and sheer RNG.
In comparison if I wanna create any item in PoE or Torchlight Infinite itâll happen, in a comparatively narrow timeframe.
A 5 T1 + craft elemental bow for example would need triple T1 elemental damage + 2 additional arrows + Attack speed + crafted crit/attribute hybrid. Top-end item, basically nobody crafts it.
It needs around 150 bases for elemental crafts to be slapped together with the recombinator, then it needs around 40 of those to acquire the additional arrows on top with a reasonable chance and afterwards itâs a guarantee to happen in basically no time, re-roll mastercraft. 1 mirror value in league, 500 div value in Standard.
Absolute top-end gear.
Now compare it to a âChampion Regaliaâ with T7 erasing Strike, T7 echo damage as well as T5 life and T5 hybrid life.
First of all getting a champion Regalia isnât hard. Getting one with a T7 is already hard, getting one with 2 T7 is extremely hard.
Then you need to have the right rolls on it, hence Erasing Strike and Echo damage. That in itself is already a unicorn, and weâre not even half-way through the process.
Because then it needs to either have empty Affixes leftover or the right ones, otherwise we need to seal or remove.
And then it still needs to upgrade the leftover ones.
Each single stage is a âbrickableâ stage. That means it doesnât have a individual percentile chance but a cumulative one.
Cumulative chances cause a wide spread of success/loss respectively. You can hit it with 5 tries⌠or you can hit it with 250 tries⌠but each enforces the extremely scarce percentile chances before to happen again.
And that is the issue for the system.
To allow scarce acquisition the processing needs to be non-scarce.
To enforce scarce processing the acquisition needs to be non-scarce.
We currently have scarce acquisition and scarce processing. This is not acceptable.
I would actually like to point out that this is pretty much the same thing as drops. You can have a red ring drop in an hour of play and someone else can play for 1k hours and not drop one.
However, I donât see any cries to change this, since itâs a basic feature of the genre.
Yeah bro sealing is great for anything tier2 or lower, earlier just today a seal at T2 failed and cost me 24FP, kinda insane. Lots of the higher exalted items however drop with higher sub tiers , I have a rogue armor at the moment 7/7/6/6 in my imprints so really canât seal that its 100% removal because getting the right combo even with high FP and redemptions is insanely low and then I have to hope it takes a tier 6 not a 7 lol
I personally think what you THINK would happen would not happen, lowering the cost to a set value or a lower range will just limit the amount of bricks. Imprints take ages to get a good base then many hours solid of killing stuff even using trove for them to drop more. Trove costs 3500 amber which takes many hours to farm.
imagine if you crafted every day for 3 weeks and every time you hit the right seal or removal and the removal only cost you 1FP - this is at the current setting its at now, is that suddenly making the game playing for craft because you got lucky? I will agree to disagree with you but yeah playing almost 10 hours a day seeing how many people dislike it you can be sure that I am not the only one who posted this (I dont use reddit so wouldnt know)
Also as CoF I dont see how me having 50 x triple or quad exalteds affects you? I actually have more than that right now but canât trade and wouldnât trade so Iâm guessing you probably play MG where that stuff would cost billions anyway lol. I dont care what other players are selling or doing, does not affect my game play what so ever I farm for my stuff, i craft my stuff (mostly brick) and then slam my stuff (brickcity baby) and thats the world of LE for me
I also play CoF. And it affects me because if everyone is running around with quad exalted gear, then the game is now balanced around everyone having quad exalted and anyone that doesnât have one is underpowered.
Just like if everyone is running around with 2LP red rings, then the game becomes balanced around everyone having 2LP red rings and anyone without one is underpowered.
Itâs all a matter of balance.
Nahhhh sorry thatâs stupid, everyone sentinel doing void knight is running round with 2 or 3 lp titan heart only needing 2 T7âs max, everyone doing judgement pally is using null potents, not many people actually used dropped exalts, anyways not coming back to this its just another case of me giving feed back and you not liking it , shock , horror dont change the game you and llama, sorry man the games changed a lot already and it will keep continuing. Dropping the cost of a 20+ roll on a removal or seal wont change items being quad exalts. Absolutely nuts mate. Actually d/w you wonât see me round the forums anymore either this is officially my last comment and gone. Forums are dead, you and Llama helped me with a lot of maths stuff but your ideals of the game are just not it mate you canât stop progress or catering to the masses. Have a good day - officially logged out.
That only proves my point because that is now the balance threshold and everything under that is underpowered.
What youâre asking for is basically more power creep. Which will happen anyway and, like Llama pointed out, it doesnât even have to be a bad thing. You could change it so that things that affect non-exalted affixes donât cost FP at all and the game would likely be fine.
But make no mistake, it IS power creep. You want to have better gear more easily, so everyone gets more power, so the balance will revolve around that. That is a natural progression. Much like the game rebalanced around double/triple exalts this season with all the new crafting tools.
EDIT: My point was not about whether or not things should change. Iâve already said they could in previous posts, if you cared to read them without the bias you have against us.
My point was that youâre not asking for everyone to have the same crafting experience (because otherwise youâd also be asking for everyone to have the same drop experience, since thereâs no real difference between both) but for a power creep to make crafting easier.
So we can discuss that. As long as weâre honest about what weâre discussing.
You made my day with that comment.