End game grind and player retention

I’ve played 2 builds during 1.2 and while I like the game I feel that there is one general area where the game has not made any progress and made me stop playing. It is also what made me stop playing every other time I started playing and I feel this is a problem because I’m quitting the game far too early in the league.

Also, from what EHG has said, most players seem to quit the game once they hit empowered monoliths which is also around the time I quit so I figured it’s best to explain why I am quitting and what I think should be changed. This doesn’t means everyone else who is quitting at the same point is doing so for the same reasons as me since I am not in other people’s heads, this is just my case.

For the most part, the campaign feels good to play but there are some small issues. Lagon as a boss feels very out of tune with difficulty compared to the other bosses (even though there is the small corner exploit which I don’t use). Then we have the Majalsa part of the campaign and everything here feels like they hit so much harder. It’s a huge step up in damage these mobs which just feels unbalanced. It doesn’t stops me, but it feels like the game spikes up in difficulty instead of gradually going up. There are in fact many enemies throughout this part of the campaign that are perfectly able to one shot the player with a crit which before lagon, nothing does.

As soon as I enter the monolith the difficulty goes down, I’m back to fighting for the most part regular mobs though if the occasional Majalsa mob shows up it gets a lot harder as potentially capable of killing me very fast but since for the most part I don’t fight that many of them due to RNG of what mobs are used on the map, it generally feels a lot easier during this part.

Once I start getting to the last monoliths the difficulty again spikes. Lagon is brutal, Hearot is just as brutal with his AoE damage and him dashing across the entire screen and really any boss at this point can kill me unless I have an absolute beast of a build. In fact even with that they can still kill me, just less likely with a good build.

Then we enter the empowered phase which is when I quit. Enemies now are level 100, they now have much more HP and much more damage on top of the extra bonus they get from the echos. At this point the defenses just can’t keep up. Both my builds got to this point and there was nothing they could do.

The problem lies in the fact that a large part of the defenses is in the gear and a not insignificant part of them are from grand blessings which can only be farmed in empowered monoliths.

Well, if I can only farm the grand blessings in empowered monoliths and realistically speaking, I can only farm for decent gear in empowered monoliths, I now have I problem of not being strong enough to farm what I need to keep pushing. At least not without dying a lot and I don’t have the tolerance to keep dying over and over again until I finally made it. If I’m dying the answer is I need to do something easier, but doing something easier isn’t going to give me what I need.

Here we have the classic problem of hitting a brick wall which should be happening at relatively high corruption (relatively being however much a specific build can realistically handle), not as soon as a player hits empowered monoliths.

In my opinion, empowered monoliths (100 corruption) should be the absolute basic level of gameplay. Where people actually start farming for their gear and blessings. As such, this is the point where virtually any build will not struggle. Even bad builds should be getting here with bad gear and still doing fine. Once people start pushing corruption then they should start feeling the difficulty, but never before they get to the point of being able to farm.

Ideally, I’d like to see some nerfs to lagon, At very least on those big hits, or bare minimum, remove any crit chance from him during campaign and non empowered monoliths. Make the phase where we are teleported to the lower part of the arena a lot faster too, that part is incredibly annoying. I’d also like to see a nerf to Hearot, at least make sure that he can’t dash when the AoE is happening. Lastly, please nerf Majalsa mobs, they do too much damage, they are not on a comparable level as all the other mobs.

From there I’d like to see a much more gradual difficulty increase, to the point that empowered monoliths (100 corruption) are about as hard as the level 80 monoliths because again, this should be the farming stage.

Lastly and I think this has been said by a lot of people already but it cannot be overstated. Weaver stuff is a HUGE difficulty spike. It is not in line with the rest, things hit much harder and are tougher and this is before even taking into account them getting possessed which makes it extra brutal.

These are the reasons that made me quit so early in the league and quite frankly feeling like I didn’t play the game even 1/10th of the time I wanted to because it’s just frustrating to constantly die because I don’t have the defenses and I can’t even farm for it.

I’m sure many will just say, skill issue and yes, true. But I’m just an average player and if I’m quitting like so many others as soon as I hit empowered, perhaps skill is not the only issue here. Perhaps the game needs to have a more gradual difficulty curve to allow players to overcome the skill issue.

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Not like I’m the one of those who’s going to say “skill issue” etc. but I felt exactly opposite of your topic.

I couldn’t feel the difficulty curve at all. I’m not playing meta build, I didn’t check maxroll or any other “tierlist beast”. I’m playing werebear druid and well, here’s my experience from this league:

  1. All bosses were dead less than in 30 sec. (Including Lagon, Majalsa, All T1-T4 bosses and well, a minute and 10 sec for Aberroth)
  2. I was about to quit the league while grinding through regular monos, because of how boring they were. I felt that I was already able to do empowered at 3rd or 4th timeline.
  3. While I hit empowered, I had no real challenge until ~700-800 corruption. But here’s the point I want to mention: No matter if it was 100 or 400 or 700, some mobs just hit like a truck and idk if you can do much. I had 3.5k HP, around 1-2k perma converted ward, capped crit avoid, 300 hp/sec regen, 73% endurance, capped res, around 70% armor, some dodge and well, oneshots from “lightning + necrotic” or “necrotic” were REGULAR. I haven’t figured what to do with this still, but idk how to play on builds which are squisher than mine (thx god).

To sum up, I had no challenge in this game at all. It was all just easy af. And I just ended up that idk what to do except for brainless grinding for 4lp or some double t7 gear, which drops once in a lifetime. And when I think of maybe making another character the only thing which stops me is grinding through non empowered monos again (not sure if you share progression with SSF CF) and welp, honestly I feel like this every time I give LE a chance. I only struggled once, when I was lvling multishot marksman without knowing you can use puncture.
Every league was like this:

Main story (boring and easy) → Non-empowered (boring af) - Empowered (Gring 4lp to death)
Game is overall has so many rewards pre empowered, that you just cant feel the progression in endgame. Atleast that’s how it is for me.

Fair, your experience is different but let me add this. The amount of people who even reaches that level of corruption is extremely small. Even with the absolute best builds in the game (and with the bear buffs it’s actually now close to meta even if you were not copying) almost no one reaches that corruption because most people even with meta builds are not skilled enough for that.

This is because at the end of the day, with very high corruption it doesn’t matter how much defenses you build, eventually you get to the point of just being one shot no matter what attack hits you. Now sure, 700 to 800 is still within realm of defenses just barely working on some builds but it’s about to reach the limit and depending on your gear when you reach those levels of corruption, it may still be one shot territory.

That is to say, the reason you don’t struggle is because you are an extremely good player. Even if your defenses are insufficient, you play well enough that it will never be a problem. For the average player however, that is not the case.

Yes, base mobs in Act 3-8 need to be adjusted, all bosses at those stages as well. To provide a proper scaling towards Lagon/Majasa.

Which solves itself if the baseline mobs are properly adjusted to the new state.

Solely mechanically, with the bosses, yes.
The baseline content is still easy at this point, which brings me to one point I can’t agree with at all though:

They easily can, even with awful builds. That’s a personal thing you have, not having built well, either with gear or your skills. As for the follow-up:

Which is utterly wrong. Yes, you can only farm the grand blessings in empowered monoliths… but they’re not needed. They give the extra push to the top, not providing the baseline though.

Even with 40% res throughout the bank you shouldn’t run into any issues at all.

As for gear farm, in the level 90 timelines exalted items drop. Hence staying there for the weaver specific content is a more then viable approach, the game has changed substantially to allow relatively high amounts of exalteds and uniques to drop in low level content.

What I can agree with though is that the monolith → empowered monolith spike is too drastic and badly designed.

I face-tanked Lagon… with my mage. In campaign. It’s not an issue with Lagon, the boss-fight is absolutely fine, albeit highly mechanical.

There’s some specific bugs still persistent, those need to be fixed, otherwise the bossfight is one of the few good ones mechanically.

Yes, and it provides the respective improvement of drops in comparison to the base-game stuff. Hence fitting.

Nothing… that’s EHG’s balancing issues simply. I fully agree there.

As for squishier builds? You play like the devil’s lighting a fire right under your arse all the time, frantic movements in a try to avoid literally everything potentially dangerous. Which you won’t always manage.

Not even remotely ‘extremely’ good. Just a good one.

I count myself as a mediocre player skill-wise, below the 700-800 corruption level there mentioned. But baseline reaction times and handling of attack patterns is to be expected for the genre. Otherwise you can play a auto-battler as well and it makes no real difference.

I wouldn’t say I’m a brilliant player. I’m lazy and want to facetank everything, so I always like to build very tanky.

I just wanted to comment to say it is absolutely possible to build enough defence to face tank 800 corruption.

In the first area you fight a bear in a cave, go to the right of the screen and destroy some stalagmite, fight another bear, destroy the North wall, fight a third bear.
In the chest you will find the boots of Cursed Veteran, equip them and enjoy the game in a harder difficulty until you find it’s too hard and you can remove them.
The best object of the whole game, and sadly hidden…

I honestly think it depends on the build. Most of my builds don’t have much trouble with the spike to empowered monos (which is quite hard and having it smoothed out would be good).
Then I tried to build a celestial doom runemaster and started to hate the game because I had the almost the exact same experience you described in your post. And that even though I had some “okay” gear already prepared.

Sometimes certain builds are just not strong enough. Though I do believe they are the minority.

Before the patch I had a similiar experience with Burning Daggers. They got a little buff so I will try that again this patch maybe with the new Heartseeker Helmet and Heartseeker with the fire conversion nodes.

Actually, pretty much none of the builds do. As long as you build them right. So if someone’s having issues where they can’t handle the jump from the level 90 monos to base 100c it’s almost always because of build issues that need to be fixed.

That being said, if someone is having an easy time in level 90 monos and can’t handle 100c, they can simply increase corruption in the normal monos, for a more smooth curve.

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I think a lot of people just assume the progress doesn’t include actually building your character. If you rush echoes just to get to empowered and feel like you are quitting every time, stop rushing. Spend more time in unempowered, build up your character. Gaining 5 levels might make all the difference. The jump from unempowered to empowered is more than just 10 more levels for the monsters.

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Many people play a reliable season starter build and get too a few 100 corruption to gather resources and materials as they play then make alts. I’m not sure what builds you are playing but starting off with a fragile build that requires red rings to shine isn’t a good plan.

I’d also recommend maybe following some basic build guides and pick some builds that have overall good performance with low gear requirements. Again you can enjoy the game and farm gear for the more niche builds that require crazy items.

I don’t think Lagon needs a nerf, it’s a very telegraphed fight and even with bad damage you should be able to avoid big hits. Also you can even skip Lagon even in the campaign if you find a temporal sanctum key. (on top of that, you could farm a few lvls in monos further boosting your power before Lagon if you wanted)

Point being there are options. I think the biggest complaint by players is the game is too easy so I can’t see nerfing any challenge. It’s just not a good approach.

I think a major contributor to this is that the pace of which you progress monoliths and level up your character don’t match.

Depending on how early you start monolith you end up with a character of level 70-80 when finishing the last level 90 normal timeline.

And most people expect that the next natural progression move is going to empowered.
But both exp and drops in the last few normal timelines are still good, so if your build can’t handle empowered yet, there is nothing wrong in staying in normal a bit more and refarm a few normal blessings, exp and gear until you are strong enough.

You also do not need empowered blessings to become powerful enough to handle empowered.

I still think a lot of this notion comes from people wanting to be “as efficient as possible” and rush too fast.

Leaning, I beat the mobs to pleasant music with a glass of beer. Bliss. And I don’t care what level. I’m resting.

when i made second character only had to do one of the 90 monos then was able to go empowered
was quite surprised how quick i was up and running-

For some builds. Others struggle in 300c already with defenses.
There’s such a huge disparity between defensive and offensive power of builds that it’s quite a mess still. This has been present since before 1.0 and never been fixed… but is in dire need of fixing. A proper power baseline.

But 100c is a struggle for no build in the game as much as I personally know.

That’s a design element needed to be handled by the devs though. That’s why the corruption is a system I absolutely dislike. There’s no limit in pushing corruption (which can be good as well mind you) but that also gives a player no proper feedback on a clear-cut difficulty level. Stuff feels ‘unclear’ and the borders of ‘great experience’ and ‘overextended’ are hence miniscule.

It’s the same issue PoE 1 had before the Atlas was introduced. The system there was similar and found out to be detrimental for player perception and abolished for that exact reason.

Yes, 100% agreed, very much so.

That’s what freedom feels like. People aren’t used to it.

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Odd argumentation… because if you don’t have proper ‘free’ choices available to you then in a game that especially means that devs need to take that into consideration and design accordingly to adhere to the already established behaviour :stuck_out_tongue:

Either/or it’s a bit of an issue. Game design leans towards not allowing people to fall into the pitfalls of real-life to arrive to success more likely, limitations obviously applying.

I feel like the game actually needs to get harder sooner, and not at 600+ corruption empowered monos or whatever. It’s just too easy for too long.

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That’s mostly only for meta builds. Regular builds will be challenged way sooner, unless you luck out and manage to find near-BiS gear very soon.
In fact, most builds will be challenged at 600c even with near-BiS gear.

So if you pick a build that is currently overpowered, it’s only natural that you won’t feel a challenge until you really push high corruption.

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