The upcoming change to Temporal Warrior node in Rive unnecessarily nerfs Physical Rive Void Knight.
There is a very easy way to avoid this by moving this conversion effect to a Passive such as Temporal Corruption or Void Blades similar to the Void conversion for Smite (these are must have nodes for a Void Rive build and don’t interfere with Physical Rive)
I think giving Rive a void conversion is a great idea, I have always felt the lack of conversion has severely limited diversity in builds and a Void conversion for Rive fits having multiple good synergies within the Tree and Weapons.
However, I think its a sad move to enable a new type of build by disabling another. Putting a void conversion on the Temporal Warrior node nerfs physical rive VK the Optimal (IMO) way to play rive currently.
Physical Rive was pretty OP for a melee build in 1.0, it had an infinitely scaling physical penetration from stacking Flame Drinkers blade and could utilize Anvil stance to make up for the Sentinel’s mediocre defenses. Both of these were removed in 1.1 which brought the build down but it is still a pretty solid build in 1.1.
Physical Rive is also one of the few Non Void damage Void Knight builds (Only one that I know of) so killing it with the change would further reduce the diversity of the class.
How do you know they’re going to disable it, though? You just had a teaser for a node changing. You don’t even know if the node will remain in the same place.
I very much doubt they will kill phys rive in favour of void. What it seems to me is that they addded the possibility for either.
You can clearly read it and see that this is the node which doubles Rive’s chance to Echo which is the key mechanic for Rive on a Void Knight (Considering Echoed Rives get 50% more damage).
How do you know that the 50% more Echoed damage is still gated behind this conversion? (Or even exists)
For all we know, they moved the 50% more Echo damage to a passive node, so it would work for all melee attacks, like Multistrike.
All you see is a single node as part of a greater rework.
Does that mean Phys VK will be removed? I don’t have a crystal ball, but I’m assuming that if it’s in their vision for the class, even as just an unusual deviation of the ‘main’ concept, it’ll stay around with a few support nodes.
They are putting the conversion on the Double Echo chance node. This means Physical Rive will no longer have access to the Double echo chance or will lose all its adaptive damage from taking it which will be a direct nerf to Physical Rive.
I don’t think you need a crystal ball to understand that losing 30% echo chance OR all your adaptive damage will be a nerf to the build. Which is why I am suggesting to move the conversion to a different node.
The fact your “Optimal way to play rive currently” is using a Mastery effect that’s limited to Void Knight while specifically not wanting to run void damage, says a lot about how bad you believe it to be for the other Masteries.
So really:
If you want physical melee damage and echoes; why not run Multistrike instead?
If you want Echoes on Rive; why not run it as void?
If you’re just wanting physical Rive; why be forced into VK over FG with the new Forgemaster’s Might? (double stats from a 2H and still run a shield!)
Or maybe EHG just has a vision for VK to be void first, melee second and the conversation was always planned, just not ready to be implemented. Sometimes, stuff that’s blocking them from doing other cool stuff with a class just needs to go, that’s why Ice Thorns got yeeted and Primalist got Gathering Storm instead!
Why do you feel Void Knight should only be used for Void damage?? No other class has this kind of restriction.
Echoes are Void Knight’s main mastery effect and have a specific synergy with Rive (doubled echo chance and increased echo damage). There’s no reason why echoes need to be limited to void damage or void skills. Rive also has specific synergies for Physical damage with penetration from the Flame drinker node. Void knight also has increased physical and generic melee damage on few of its nodes promoting more than just void melee.
The change to Temporal Warrior makes it so going for Echoes on Rive penalizes going for any damage other than Void. I am suggesting to move it to a passive so that both Physical and Void are still viable.
I have a Phys Rive Void Knight I have been playing since 0.9, I have no problem with buffs to Physical Rive Forge Guard , But I don’t see why that should nerf Physical Rive Void Knight .
Why do you say ‘forced into VK over FG’ ?
Yeah and the conversion on this node blocks you from doing Physical Rive Void Knight. Moving it to a passive like the Smite conversion will allow both Physical and Void to utilize the double echo chance.
Yeah it HAD an infinitely scaling buff(could easily get to 200+ with good attack speed). Was changed in 1.1 to 20 stack limit which is still solid and Rive got some new toys with 1.1
Echoes are already void-specific when it comes to spells. You can’t echo with Smite unless you convert it to void, for example. And yes, Rive has physical support. But not all nodes are always meant for all the masteries, or to go together. Warpath has both void conversion and forged weapons, Javelin has terrible support in Void Knight, …
I used to have a Halvar build that relied on old Tempest Strike.
I had a Squirrel Spriggan in the works that got nerfed with the poison rework.
My Frostbite builds all took a big hit from Snowdrift’s nerf to Cold Pen.
But sometimes, 1 build (or rather its key ingredient) needs to go to make room for several other builds. This is the entire “don’t nerf, only buff” discussion all over again, just for a build.
As for forced into VK: You said it was the most optimal way to play Rive. So by that logic, if I want to play (phys) Rive I can’t be a Forge Guard? That makes little thematical sense.
I don’t actually like the Smite conversion. Maybe if it was on the +spell one, I’ld be ok, but as it is where it is now, it’s kinda saying “this is a void damage tree”. Maybe if it’s turned into a threshold node I can live with it by going only 4 points or so, but right now that conversion blocks 3 damage nodes. That’s no different than blocking extra echoes.
But even if you’re right in all assumptions and really want a phys melee void knight … why aren’t you using Multistrike with Bladestorm & Echoed Warfare instead? Way of the Sword is phys only, grab Blitz → Guillotine, plus Echoed Warfare should get you plenty of Echo action!
Yeah but they are meant for ALL melee and throwing attacks not for only Void melee/ throwing attacks.
Rive is already currently primarily a Physical skill I am saying they shouldn’t nerf the Physical aspect just to enable void.
Again I never said they shouldn’t buff Physical Rive Forge guard and Void Rive VK. I said they shouldn’t nerf the existing Physical Rive VK for it.
Probably the dumbest take I’ve heard in all your arguments. The Passive node giving Smite Void conversion (Temporal Corruption) gives Flat void damage making full sense since flat VOID damage would be pretty useless for a Fire/Lightning smite build and wouldn’t take it anyway. No idea what you mean by it blocking damage nodes.
There’s no assumptions. I already have a solid Physical Rive Void Knight, the build works great and I have farmed LP uniques and solid gear to push it.
The change to Temporal Warrior opens up Void Rive VK but nerfs existing Physical Rive VK builds. This change simply limits diversity. Moving the conversion to a different node like Temporal corruption or Void Blades still allows Void Rive (and these nodes are pretty must-have for a Void Rive build anyway) While still allowing Physical Rive VK to continue doing well.
Currently, there are 0 melee attacks that can be converted to void. why should they pay an extra cost just so you can have your build? Why, in their mind, shouldn’t void conversion and echo chance be combined?
“Never nerf, only buff!”
As other games have proven, it doesn’t work.
EHG is not a fan of it anyways.
“converting to void damage makes full sense as a void knight”
Also, not wanting void dmg as a VK is literally what you’re arguing for, calling it “the dumbest take you’ve heard” kinda says something about your PoV.
If I’m making an Eternal Eclipse Paladin running 50/50 Void & Fire, why do I need to be forced to run void Smite just because I want void flat dmg???
I had some pretty decent poison stacking builds prior to them removing the pen per stack.
I’ve had some pretty busted Ice Thorns armor stacking builds prior to their removal.
Removing those builds ended up being better for the diversity of the game than if they kept it in.
At no point did you even articulate why Phys Rive VK is essential to the game. Between Phys Rive FG & Void Rive VK, you already have 2 potential alternatives, yet you selectively refuse to respond to that suggestion in my comment.
You start to sound more and more like someone that only wants THEIR specific build to continue to do good, regardless of the game itself. Cool, but from what I can tell, the majority of players are not like that.
I’m sure an EHG employee has seen your concern about phys echo builds, they’ll mention it in a dev meeting and whether or not they make it 2 separate nodes is up to the design team.
To repeat:
Your specific build may be nerfed for the betterment of the game overall. That’s how game development, democracies, the economy, and in general anything non-egocentrical works. Sucks to be you, I’ll support your argument once you get me back old Tempest Strike.
Again I am not arguing against having Void conversion for Rive, I am just asking it to be moved to a different passive which will have negligible cost for a Void Rive build.
Do you really think taking a Flat void damage passive is that much of an extra cost for Void Rive?
As I have explained multiple times but you don’t seem to be understanding. Combining Echo chance and Void conversion makes Echo Rive only usable for Void Rive. Keeping it on Temporal Corruption or Void Blades passive keeps Phys Rive alive while also having no additional cost for Void Rive.
Okay you seem to have some kind of agenda that one playstyle has to be nerfed for another to be viable. I really don’t know why you are fixated on this. Do you think Physical Rive VK is overpowered in some way?
I never said EHG shouldn’t nerf outliers or overpowered builds but I don’t think they should delete one viable build to allow another.
Nope I said a passive giving Flat Void damage makes full sense to also have Void conversion for a skill.
If you don’t want Void damage why would you take a Flat VOID damage node and then complain about the conversion… You can still have Fire/Lightning Smite as a VK without taking that node.
Its a solid melee build and one of the few non void damage Void Knight build which adds diversity to the class.
By the way, you haven’t given any solid reasoning why nerfing it would make the game better. Only some assumptions that other builds MAY be viable in 1.1 and constantly harping on “never nerf, only buff”
Again I have no problem with them buffing Phys Rive FG and Void Rive VK and making them viable but why do you feel Phys Rive VK needs to be nerfed for them to be viable.
You start to sound like you’re jaded from the changes to Tempest Strike and are arguing for the sake of argument. I don’t see any benefit to the game’s build diversity from Echo Rive being locked to Void damage and you seem to feel it will greatly improve the game for all players for some reason.
Great! that’s why I made the post. But again, I am not asking for there be a separate node for the void conversion. Just moving it to a Passive that will be typically used for Void Rive builds anyway.
To repeat:
I’ve been playing Rive VK for a long time. This post is my suggestion for the upcoming change to allow for more diversity with the class and skill based on my experience and will not have any impact on the potential new builds coming from the change.
You seem to be fixated on this “nerfs make the game better” due to your own nerfed builds without giving any rationale why nerfing Physical Rive VK would make the game overall better as you claim.
No idea how “democracies, economy and non-egocentrical” factors in here…
I think it is better that we agree to disagree and close the conversation here as there doesn’t seem to be anything productive coming from it.
