For me to be honest Dungeons don’t feel like “Dungeons”. Like @Houlala say it they are out of place right now. Wrong priorities !
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I would slightliy change the way to access the dungeons.
I would let the dungeons open and accessible, but I would get the exit accessible just before the final reward and I would gate the reward behind a key.
This way, players can “train” as much as they want without wasting keys. They also can farm exalted items in the Temporal Sanctum.
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Which is absolutely worth having, sooner rather than later.
As others have mentioned, I personally believe this is largely increased by the very high demand to do new content more exclusively rather than in balance with other content. The drop rates are set to a point where you should encounter them at a healthy rate with the standard endgame gameplay loop. For example, you should get lightless arbor keys about as often as it takes to farm enough gold to make it feel decently rewarding to run it. If you got the keys more often, you’d have a surplus of keys since you wouldn’t want to run it until you got more gold anyways creating a surplus of keys - more rare and you’d have an overdemand of keys and still be left with surpluses of gold after runs.
This is a delicate balance, but something we’re targeting with the drop rates keeping in mind that these are a feature for a 1.0 core game and healthy gameplay experiences - not targeted to be seasonal content to keep players busy outside of the normal existing endgame gameplay. And this is certainly something we’re looking for feedback on in regards to if that healthy gameplay is being achieved here.
Each dungeon is designed to ensure it provides necessary supplies to utilize the reward mechanic. Temporal Sanctum will always give you an LP item and matching exalted base. The first 3 modifiers in Lightless Arbor are discounted to ensure you can at least afford a couple of modifiers just from gold drops found in the dungeon, and Soul Bastion is completely self contained. While these are not the “optimized” usages of the reward mechanic by any means, we ensure the reward mechanics are always accessible.
I’m not personally sure how this is considered a ‘gate’ any more than more corruption in monolith of fate is a ‘gate’. Yes, better rewards come from higher difficulty, however there is a breakpoint until everything is “unlocked” which is designed to not be unreasonable to obtain.
This is an aspect called “Cost of Entry”. By having a cost of entry we can allow something to have exceptionally high rewards without greatly skewing the power curve. Cost of Entry also creates a demand for the contents within. I quickly explained this in a different post, and will copy here: By having a cost of entry, it increases the desire to optimize rewards - clear more of the dungeon to get more from each key spent. Without having anything spent, there’s no incentive to do anything other than rush the single most rewarding aspect (typically boss) and ignore everything else. This is one of the issues currently encountered with the Monolith. And while we are working on other solutions for the Monolith to provide more than simply rushing the objective, Dungeons work differently, and the same solutions won’t apply.
We currently believe having a cost of entry (dungeon key) is an effective measure for Dungeons to provide value to what can be found within, and allow the rewards within to be more rewarding based on key scarcity.
If we were to remove key requirements, we would also need to greatly reduce the rewards, otherwise it would become the definition of, where I might normally say “power creep”, it may be more akin to “power sprinting”. We certainly understand that players will always want access to the most rewarding content, however if they can infinitely run it with no cost, no ‘gates’ then the game loses the loot hunt aspect, and other aspects of the game fall further behind. Monolith becomes a “needless grind” which will then be demanded to match the rewards of the dungeons, normal drops that aren’t from empowered dungeon rewards fall further and further behind as there’s a new “normal” created, and it becomes an endless loop of power creep. We want dungeons to be exciting to complete, for players to want to do dungeons because of the great rewards they can contain - however in order to have that there has to be a cost, a limiting factor to not completely imbalance and throw off everything else in the game among other reasons earlier mentioned.
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In Multiplayer will there be a key cost for all party members or does only one player need to have a key?
We are currently planning for a single key to be required for a party to enter. We feel with current key drop rates and multiplayer difficulty scaling this shouldn’t create as significant of a disparity as it may first appear - and would offer a much smoother experience for playing with friends. However is something we will certainly be keeping an eye on and continuing to discuss based on testing results.
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Thanks for taking the time to explain your thoughts and decisions around this concept… It is always good to understand the background & why development decisions are made - we may not agree with the end result, but just knowing how it came about is very useful.
I understand your cost of entry - thats all normal and I have no issue with “gates” as I call them in general… and I understand the need to balance the availablility of keys which enabled entry into this special content… No issue.
From my perspective tho, the next “gating” is where I no longer wholly agree…
I do not run Dungeon content for the sake of the dungeon, I run it for the reward. I do not run Temporal Sanctum just to make an arbitrary Legendary out of whatever unique/exalt pair drops - I currently ONLY run Sanctum when I want to make a Legendary for which I have already farmed countless hours to get a unique & matching exalt… I have a purpose and end goal for running a Dungeon…
So in this example, by the time I run Temporal Sanctum, I have already passed through multiple “gates” - the RNG for the Key, the RNG for the Unique & the RNG for the Exalt… (and let me tell you - that can be a serious GRIND)… Then I have to kill a boss - less of a “gate” except that the link between boss difficulty and the ability to craft something of a particular level is actually a gate… Then there is one last “gate” at the end - the RNG for the craft to match an affix to the Unique which can negate all the other effort already put in…
My main concern here is that in this example, you are essentially compounding RNG x RNG x RNG x RNG (ignoring the boss level “gate”)
So perhaps you guys view Dungeons in a different way to how I view it… I dont seem them as random content - I see them as having a specific purpose to achieve a reward that is of greater potential value than just one RNG loot drop in Monos…
and YES, before anyone comments, the inherent nature of a “more valuable” reward means its needs more “gates”/requirements to get… my concern here is simply that when the rewards are compounded - it can potentially not be a great experience… hours putting together requirements all dependent on RNG only to have one RNG stage bork everything you had worked toward…
Perhaps my view on the purpose of Dungeons is wrong… and they are actually just alternative content to give you something to do instead of endless Monos… If thats the case then I have missed the boat on Dungeons…
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That’s exactly what I expected from Dungeons. I thought they should present an alternative way to farm for gear. Turns out, that it’s meant as an extension of the current farming system.
I see it that way:
- as an extension it should somehow be integrated into the current mono system
- as a standalone system should be either easier accessible or the rewards should be much better/more deterministic
Currently its exclusivity is not created through outstanding gameplay experience or rewards, but only through the scarcity of keys.
I absolutely appreciate that you have a reasoning for the key drop rates but that doesn’t change my opinion that they are frustratingly low. I don’t want to run monoliths for several hours then run a dungeon and then its back to hours of monoliths. The balance is too lopsided. You can go literally 2 to 3 hours or more without seeing a key and then when one does drop you have a 1 in 3 chance of it even being the one you want to run, and as more dungeons are added the odds will change even further. I’m not saying the gameplay loop has to be run a monolith then a dungeon then a monolith then a dungeon but it needs to be much better than “maybe I’ll get to do the dungeon I want today after playing for hours and hours”.
Then imagine you die during the run and lose your rewards. Outch!
That brings me to the next thing:
Dungeon tiers are kind of useless. Because keys are so rare, your wouldn’t risk running a dungeon under leveled. The opposite is the case. People save their keys untill they feel overpowered enough to run the dungeon on the highest availible tier. So the first 2 tiers of the dungeons won’t ever be experienced at the intended level. It’s also not even possible, because at the rate these keys drop, everybody will be massively overleveled when he finds his first key.
Having to do 2 runs t1+2 with a lvl 70 character feels like the game joking with me.
And how would I save up dungeon keys to use the level skip mechanic on a twink (that also doesn’t work in reality) when I even can’t get enough keys for my main character?
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I agree with EHG’s stance on requiring cost of entry, theres a few factors to consider here, note I havent played the new dungeons, I dont know the drop rates
First off they would have to nerf the rewards and from what ive seen are pretty generous, Personally ive been conditioned by PoE to need a consumable item to do almost everything. In PoE you need a map just to run a ‘monolith’ zone for example, you could run out of the highest tier maps which would mean instead of being able to run corruption 200 constantly, now you have to farm at 180 to find more maps to run 200.
Look at other aRPGs and their content gating:
PoE: - consumable for everything but the story, maps/fragments. PoE has Delve which is like Lightless Arbor - to charge the machine you need to find energy maps. Many bosses accessed by 4 fragments. Content in PoE is gated constantly
D3- Rifts were infinite like monoliths but Greater Rifts needed keys which only dropped in normal rifts
Grim Dawn: Normal zones were just the story but Rogue dungeons which had the best chances of loot required a Skeleton key which was actually irritating to craft and rarely dropped, then they brought out Shattered Realm which also im sure needed a key but I cant remember
Also I think Heavy has a good point - the dungeons have been released when people have millions of gold and many exalts. If there is a new league scenario by the time you actually would want to go to Lightless and spend some cash you probably have many keys at that point infact I see you hoarding them without going as you dont have the money/exalts
It seems the dungeon in order in progression is Soul > Lightless > Temporal
Souls seems better to acquire general gear or maybe target farming, Lightless is good for many exalt drops/loot explosions. Temporal is to actually upgrade into LP the last step
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What’s the “standard endgame gameplay loop”, here? Knocking out high-corruption empowered monos on a highly optimized lvl 100 character? Are dungeons not intended to be accessed by casual players, who mostly level new characters and play normal monos?
Since the patch, I’ve played about 20 hours and gotten this:
2 Lightless Arbour keys
0 Soulfire Bastion keys
0 Temporal Sanctum keys
3* Arena keys
(* all from targeted rewards in monos and arena, these don’t drop from mobs anymore either).
This doesn’t feel like a “healthy rate” to me at all. And I don’t understand why the area level of the first dungeon tiers are set at less than 100, if you need to do lvl100 content to consistently gain access to them.
Are you assuming a 100% completion rate, here? Because that has not been my experience with the Temporal Sanctum. I needed 4-5 attempts to learn Julra and still only have about a 50/50 success rate on that boss with most of the characters I’ve tried with.
This is also why my 2 LA keys are still sitting in my stash, even though I really want to try the dungeon. I just know that I’ll get one-shot by some mechanic I’m not aware of, and feel intensely frustrated if I don’t have the opportunity to get another go at it without another 10-hour+ mono grind.
Bring on the “git gud” jeers, but I definitely feel that new dungeon key drop rates have been balanced according to the needs and experiences of hardcore players and, as a casual player, this patch has been a net loss for my experience.
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D3 normal rifts guarentee a key drop, sometimes two key drops, so not exactly the same thing going on really.
I could play D3 for 2 or 3 hours normal rifting and have multiple greater rift keys, compare that with 2 or 3 hours in Gated Epoch, and your lucky if you have 1 or 2 new dungeon keys.
I mean come on, who’s brain farted hard enough to release a new patch, with basically the only new content being 2 dungeons, and then gate that so hard, brilliant idea, no?
I’m still trying to work what the point of arena champions is.
Cant comment on PoE as i dont play it and GD i havent played enough.
Some people have millions of gold, not all people, or are we assuming that everyone started the game at same time and are able to play as much as say a full time gamer? But that is by the by, if i could enter the new dungeons to play them, i would grind for gold, but whats the point, if i cant get a key.
Some people since the patch release have seen 1 or 2 keys, that in anybodys book is really bad design, except Heavy’s of course, he thinks its fun.
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My casual feedback here.
I’m someone who likes to make characters and try different playstyles, not optimizing those characters and their play styles. So I usually quit character at around 70-75lvl. I made one new character after the patch came and I even found the character pretty good. Highly defensive forge guard.
I wanted to try the new dungeons with this character. I expected to find some keys, but nope. Only about the time I was going to quit, I did find one soulfire key.
Sure, I was nearly 70lvl and as far as I understand, the first tier of the dungeon is scaled to 45? Sure … sure, I decided I dont care and wanted to see it. It was obviously ez.
At my level I expected boss to be easy, but I still got hit sometimes by nearly 50% of my hp before I could do anything. It even felt like the fire switching thing was slow to react. Considering this was one of my more durable characters, I doubt I could survive that place with a lower level one. Are they really intended to allow new characters to pass through the story quickly?
So a very low droprate for keys? Low level characters might have difficulty to actually getting through (at least at my skill level) ? Not sure what the dungeon’s purpose is. It feels like its for targeted end game items?
The other dungeon? Lightless something? Nope. I’m already getting interested making another character. I have no intention of farming key for it. I have already written it off from my experience. If one key drops for one of my higher level characters for the short time I play them, sure, I’ll go check it, but that seems unlikely.
The keys…
The key droprates in general are too low. I have my stack on temporal keys from previous patches. Never liked to do that because I found it not to be worth the effort.
I found only that single soulfire key as a drop. I did get an arena key from doing monoliths since it was a reward. I feel like the temporal keys in previous patches had higher droprate. In fact I started tossing them away since I had large stack of them in my chest anyway and it wasn’t like I was doing the place.
If you want keys to exist, make them easier to get. Perhaps low level version could be accessed without a key and end game relevant levels require one? Allow them to be crafted??
Some solution that allows me to go there when I want to. Now I cant even do them.
For player like me, these dungeons might not even exist and I guess that could be … acceptable. There exists stuff in other arpg’s that I dont even consider ‘my content’. For example PoE end game bosses. I can accept some stuff is out of my interest area, but these dungeons don’t seem to be obviously designed as such. Yet, this seems to be the case.
If these dungeons are end game content, make them such. If they are intended to be doable for earlier content, make them such. Someone might say “git gud”, but nope. I play the parts of the game I find fun. When I need to start doing stuff I dont like doing, I stop doing that stuff. If the game isn’t fun afterwards, I quit it.
Anyway, here is some feedback from my type of player.
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Its the same concept
Thats what aRPGs are they gate content?, if you remove the cost of entry then you remove the reward structure and its just another area
Right but you wont on a new ‘cycle’ or league release. EHG doesnt really care about offline players and it will be balanced around that
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Concept maybe the same, outcome is completely different.
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I have no problem with entry requirements, however there are requirements and there is just completely shit drops, inducing boredom and frustration.
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As it is, it isnt in a cycle, its offline, in EA.
I agree with keys being a less fun gating criteria than something like boss difficulty. The fun part of this game is pushing your builds forward and facing challenging situations, not waiting for Math.rand to give you the right number on kill. How access to parts of the game is gated should reflect more of this.
@vapourfire , as usual has pretty much expressed most of my concern as to how LE seems to be progressing now as opposed to all of the reasons I started playing it.
Dungeons are a great example, but for me at least, the worrying trend is RNG and the reliance upon it. Sadly to say, this brings me once again to one of the major reasons I quit PoE, their insane reliance on RNG for everything. Indeed, I used to call it Path of RNG over in their reddit & forums.
LE did well with an exodus of players from PoE and other similar Aprg’s to start off the playerbase here. However, as time goes on, it seems that they have somehow lost perspective on WHY people came here from other “places”. I personally can take a little RNG in my games, but there’s a tipping point for me. When things become far less deterministic and more entirely “luck based” then the game goes from something I grind to achieve to something I loathe (often citing bad luck).
I made many people angry with my comments on the new crafting system when it came in. My major complaint then was the increasing creep of RNG x RNG x RNG etc. I stated that I was concerned about the direction LE were taking, and as to how similar it was to the initial and progressive mistakes PoE made which drove me to quit and come here.
Now, the dungeon “systems” also have increasing elements of RNGxRNGxRNG as eloquently demonstrated by my friend Vapour. So, the two most recent innovations in LE are largely far more dependant on RNG than previous systems. Yet again, I will make myself unpopular by saying that I still think that relying on layers of RNG is simply a lazy and fast approach to introducing new elements to a game. I really do not like it one little bit. Vapour’s example above of trying to approach Temporal Sanctum in a deterministic approach is a great one.
The more experienced, as players, we become the greater our ability to play the game becomes. We then value our time far more and look to increase our gear quality with DETERMINISTIC methods of crafting/rolling/melding. When you are “fine tuning” a character using the Temporal Sanctum example above and looking to make a legendary you can use, you have already spent many many hours grinding to get the base unique with enough LP & farming/tweaking the perfect exalted base to add to it. You’ve already done many layers of RNG in those 2 processes just to get your “base materials”. To then have to do a Boss battle that has lazy one shots and a large level of RNG only to get to a forge that yet again relies on RNG to decide which suffixes you get to keep just feels like a massive slap in the face to me. By the time I’ve reached this final forging process, I’ve already got sick to the hind teeth of RNG elements, now after sometimes thousands of hours of play/grind I have to face yet more of it? It’s wrong. Sorry, but just plain wrong.
To grind a unique with 3+LP takes many many hours and huge amounts of RNG luck. To find a great exalt base with exactly what you are starting to look for in the T6/T7 takes many many hours. Then we get to face the RNG in the crafting system to make a base with 4 suffixes we can live with. Why? Because getting the Unique takes so long we don’t want to waste it using an exalt with only 3/4 good suffixes, obviously.
I could go on, but you get my point.
MY first few hundred hours playing LE were fantastic. I felt as though I could actually make what I wanted to, play how I wanted to, make builds I wanted to play with, and play with a style I wanted to. The mono system was great for allowing me to push my limits as my character survived. I felt I could do all of this mostly with a deterministic approach and a dash of RNG.
Then after the crafting changes, making END GAME gear became more of a frustration for me as a min/maxer.
Then the first terrible dungeon boss fight arrived, and then more RNG was thrown in with the forge.
Then yet more terrible dungeon boss fights arrived (I posted elsewhere why I think this), more RNG chucked in.
A large amount of my “good faith” built up initially by LE is starting to drain away, as I see remarkable similarities in approach creeping in to what happened to PoE.
I find it inexplicable as to how such a shift in approach can have crept into the game development here. I had, and still have, a ton of faith in the initial dev team with all they initially brought us. However, it is starting to feel as though a ton of ex-GGG employees have been taken on in those roles. I really hope I am wrong. This veering towards more and more multiplicative factors of RNG and lazy one shot mechanics is eerily familiar. The difference that I do hope the team here is aware of is a large one though, over there I was morally committed to a cause after years of play. As much as I love it here, I am far less morally invested due to time as I was there. It would take far less to jump of a sinking ship here than it did there.
So, once again, I plead with the powers that be. Look at your overall direction, learn from what brought you your initial player influx, and do not repeat those same mistakes. Bring back more deterministic approaches for us min/maxers who are not “noobs”. You can still leave in systems for newer players to the game, but please remember that a large portion of your player base are going to be experienced players who like to min/max and not run around subject to the gods of RNG (for noobs).
Sorry once again for a massive wall of text. I think as I type, and the more I type, the more thoughts become clearer.
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I strongly share this sentiment. I praised the previous crafting system as one that respected the players time and agency. Having the system be more deterministic was what made it stand out from many other crafting systems found in games.
Time has passed and my feelings remain the same. The new crafting system is a huge step backwards from what it was before. In the time that I have played since the update I hardly ever use it, since it requires too many other RNG variables to align in your favour to even bother. I’ve even reworked my loot-filter in hopes of getting decent bases, but the system is not as enjoyable or useful as it was before.
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