Double-dipping or dev short-cut creating misleading character stats?

General
1

• There are nodes in the passive tree that provide “increases damage X%”

Q1, is this the same as “Global Damage” effectively?

• When a point is allocated to “increases damage: X%” nodes, it results in all damage categories in the Character sheet (press C) to go up by X% e.g. DOT, spell, necrotic, etc. For example if you have no gear and no passives that affect any damage and the character sheet has 0% on all categories (DOTs, Necrotic, Spell included), then this passive causes DOT damage to go up from 0% to X%, Spells to go up from 0% to X%, and Necrotic damage to go up from 0% to X%.

Q2 If this is the case, then wouldn’t that cause skills that do necrotic damage over time to go up by X%^3? effectively TRIPLE dipping?

Q3 does it actually do that or is this simply the Dev’s work around for not having a “gobal damage” stat in the character sheet and is effectively a sort of visual bug?

2

The character sheet entries are additive.
Example:

  • The line which says “Increased Melee Damage” is the line applied to a melee attack.
  • The line which says “Increased Physical Damage” is applied to any physical damage you deal.
  • If you make a physical melee attack, you add those two numbers together for total increased damage of that attack.

IMHO, the Build Planner from Dammit represents this better than the (C)haracter screen in game.

3 Likes
3

Yes, generic % increased damage would apply to everything (except minions), but no, it’s only applied in the damage calc.

Mike is working on the reworked character screen then we should hopefully see in 0.8.5 which will be a lot better than the one we currently have.

2 Likes
4

Except that would double count any generic damage modifiers.

5

If I understand you correctly, it does not double tip or triple dip and the character sheet would say, and this will be somehow be corrected in some way in 0.8.5? but I shouldn’t count it as double dipping despite what the character sheet currently says?

6

Yes. 5 chars

7

1 Like
8

Character sheet display only problem.
The character sheet displays all damage boosts that applies to that type of damage, since global damage applies to everything it add to everything in the character sheet. So you get physical =+%physical damage+% global and spell damage =%spell damage+%global damage etc.

In reality game does this for a physical spell: damage bonus =+%physical+%spell+%global.

9

Are you sure? I was lead to believe from many sources that each category is multiplied together, i.e. %phys * % spell * % global. Indeed the math and strategizing is quite boring if all skill types are just additive and never multiplicative.

EDIT: yes, found the formulae which is what I expected:

Formula is : Damage = base damage * (1 + sum of increases from tree) * (1 + sum of increases from stats) * (1 + more modifier 1) * (1 + more modifier 2) * (1 + more modifier 3)…
10

They are almost all addictive except for the “more” multiplicative modifiers.

Thats why its not really issue (until it is, which can be rework easily) even if u double or triple “dip” because the skills are designed and have taken that into account.

11

They are additive with themselves, and so is “more damage” in a skill tree. They are all multiplicative with eachother.

12

Just like in POE and this game handles mods quite the same way.

Increased/Decreased=Additive
More/Less=Multiplicative

Most everything is Additive unless it otherwise says so. Every More/Less Modifier even says as much in their descriptions. “This mod is multiplicative with other modifiers”

About the only thing the character sheet needs at this point is a sheet for Each Skill you are using currently independently. Just like POE has. Especially when it comes to skills that have trees with %Base Crit modifiers which mean with enough on a skill itself in its tree could put you at crit cap even though you might only be showing 60%-70% crit on your overall character sheet. Since base crit ends up being a multiplier to the amount of crit you have that all your % increased crit is effecting.

For example you have 5% base crit from the start, you get say 5% base crit from a certain skill you use in its tree, now you get 200% increased global crit, your stat sheet will still show you having 15% while that skill you specced the extra 5% base crit actually has 25% crit. And by endgame when you start having base crit on items combined with skill nodes you can easily show only have 60%-70% crit on your sheet while being 85-100% crit on a skill with enough base crit added that isn’t factored in.

Especially when some skills have Global Effects. Which are also explained in their descriptions and worded as such for example Teleport on Mage that has Global Buffs to Damage and Resistances when used and for a duration afterwards. Which each of those type of effects are listed in their Descriptions. And should also show their effects on other skills independently when applied would be really nice.

And as far as double dipping is concerned I dont recall any mechanics or unique’s so far that bring those types of effects into the game. Things like that typically come from conversion mechanics which are sparingly used so far that ive seen. And even if they did introduce more conversion mechanics into the game their fairly easy to control things like double dipping in those cases for the most part if done correctly. Such as not allowing conversion to happen more than once like in Grim Dawn or having an order of Conversion down a line like POE has.

13

This is not true. Increases of multiple types are not multiplicative with each other. More modifiers are all multiplicative with one another (and the summed increases).

So, for a skill that has both the Melee and Physical tags,
100% increased Melee damage, and 100% increased Physical damage would be added together for the formula

total_damage = base_damage * (1 + summed_increases) * (1 + more_modifier_1) * (1 + more_modifier_2) … (1 + more_modifier_x)

Please note that the more modifiers listed could all come from the same skill tree --they’re multiplicative with eachother.

You can view the Community Game Guide to find more information on this, its a great resource. I also believe that the ingame guide goes over some of this as well.

1 Like
14

That’s what I said. I said each other you said one another. Same thing.

15

The formula you posted before is definitely wrong, what you said is definitely wrong as well. I may have over explained things you already knew, but okay.

16

Reading through this whole thread is exhausting and confusing. I’m not even going to worry about what my total crit chance or other factors are for the time being.

I made a thread recently in FB+Suggestions asking for a stat sheet for each individual skill for the future hopefully that does the final calculations for the player.

17

The formula you gave (which is incorrect for the increased modifiers) says that % increased from gear is applied separately to % increased from stats which is wrong. All % increased from any source are added together then applied:

Damage = base damage * (1 + sum of increases) * (1 + more modifier 1) * (1 + more modifier 2) * (1 + more modifier 3)…`

18

It’s not my formula, but form a dev but yes obviously from tree and from gear should be one “factor”.

19

Ahh, that’s before they changed the damage modifiers on skills from “increased” to “more”. So you’re using a very old formula.

20

Except for damage increases in specializations right? Those are only for the skill that you specialize in right? Just double checking since you said everything.