Dodge mechanic vs armor & protection?

Feedback and Suggestions
1

Just from my personal experience. And what I see a lot of build creator do in their concept.

Gblow is mandatory in every build so I won’t mention that here. Also, having a good build is mandatory too.

Dodge & a lot of hp is easier to get & work better keeping you alive than stacking protection.

In the 1st one, you just have to have set health, set dodge, dodge, health in most of your gear. And boom, you have one “tanky” character.

For the later, you have to split your affix around element, armor, void, necrotic, poison protection while still have to shove in some HP here or there, pretty hard to maintain high number in all of those areas.

I see some people have to work around those off-element protection by using Orian’s eyes to get rid of void dmg and “of faith & cleansing” to get rid of poison/necrotic. That just confirm it’s harder to get those off-element protection. I’m not saying it’s impossible to do, it just way harder for the same result.

What do you think? For me, its’ better to have a shard with group of those off-element protection.

Im not playing this game long enough to get a full picture of how one is better or not than the other. And if there are some thread discuss about this already, please guide me to the correct one.

2

Yeah, I think the problem is that, as you say, dodge is a single thing that can protect you against hits of all elements so you can specialise in it and if you dodge, you take zero damage. With protections you need to spread your defensive affixes relatively thinly to cover all the elements thus ending up with less mitigation over all.

Perhaps dodge should be changed to make it easier to hit cap (fewer affixes) but only gives a % damage mitigation (I’m thinking 50%). That would allow dodge builds to use some of their defensive affixes for protections to add another layer of defense, plus it would make them less spikey. Sustain would be more important, be it regen or leech, but they could also take some protections to help against hits and dots.

Additionally I think there should be a set of group protections for void/necrotic/poison just like there is for the elemental protections. They could call it “entropic” protection.

1 Like
3

This !!! Please !!!

To add a bit to the topic, there are protection that are literraly used by no one I think. For example I don’t think that stun avoidance as ever been crafted on any endgame gear (or any gear at all) by anyone. Useless stat, useless shard.

1 Like
4

Ward is better than Health at that because of the innate ‘regen’ of it.

It would be cool to see a breakdown of health leech vs ward gain. I am sure it is class dependent.

Llama taking my “entropy protections” idea. :smiley:

5

This is interesting. Never thought about ward vs health.

ward has its “retention” aka it will degen all the time. Only way to prevent this, as far as I know, is using the unique Exsanguinous chest. But yeah, I’m having a lowlife werebear and 1-2sec to moving away from danger, I go back to “full” ward.

Back on the topic, I would love the dev to adapt the ideal of grouping those off-element protection into one shard like element protection for fire/cold/light. whatever name suit best.

This is the only game I see dodge is that powerful. In other ARPG I play, dodge is just another layer of defense.

6

I’m not sure if I’m tired and not paying attention, but ward only has an innate degen. There are a few caster bases that give small amounts of ward generation per second, and some passives that do the same or give ward on mana spend, minion death, block, etc, but the main way people get lots of ward to stop the bad people from making them go splat is with skills such as rip blood (especially on wraiths which is a big issue, could probably do with either a cap or diminishing returns) and flame ward.

7

Yea, that’s why I put it in those ’ ', Exsanguinous makes you actually regen ward, while the ability to continuously generate ward (with skills/attacks) with no real cap makes it so it is basically endless. That makes it better with dodge because there is more time between hits to get it to a high level.

8

Health also has “innate” regen, without a unique. It’s possible to scale regen pretty high without too much investment. Exsang also results in lower EHP without very high ward retention.

9

Stats like this have to exist because, if every affix was useful, there would be no difference between a good item and a bad one. It’s bad stats that make good items stand out, if you get what I mean.

10

Theoretically:

Set health: 768 health with all four pieces at max rolls at tier 7.
Set dodge: 336% with the same condition.

Set elemental max is 1440 with all four pieces with max rolls at tier 7.
Set necrotic/poison is 1760 with the same condition.
Set armor/void is is 1760 with the same condition.

All the sets are prefixes.

Set health: Gloves, boots, amulet, relic
Set dodge: Gloves, boots, rings

Set armor/void: Gloves, boots, amulet, relic
Set elemental: Amulet, ring, relic
Set poison/necrotic: Gloves, boots, rings

For a full protection set build you can theoretically go the following (not that we have much control…)

Amulet: Set elemental, set armor/void
Gloves: Set armor/void, set poison/necrotic
Boots: Set armor/void, set poison/necrotic
Relic: Set armor/void, set elemental
Ring 1: Set elemental, set poison/necrotic
Ring 2: Set elemental, set poison/necrotic

Set elemental: 4 pieces
Set armor/void: 4 pieces
Set poison/necrotic: 4 pieces

So assuming you’re the luckiest person in the world and get all tier 7s with max rolls, you’ll have an additional 1440 elemental protections and 1760 armor/void/necrotic/poison protections.

I got bored and did some math (which probably needs checking) to compare going full elemental protections versus going set HP + set dodge. Assuming the values above, what I found was that the amount of hits to kill you for having full elemental protection is about the same as having full set HP + 30% dodge. For non-elemental protections, it’s set HP + 40% dodge (this is assuming base sentinel HP, which may need some corrections). Of course you need less and less dodge to match the hits taken to die from protections as your HP goes up.

This however, does not take into account the following:

  • hp regen
  • hp leech
  • damage over time (can’t dodge that nor apply glancing blow)

If you don’t take regen/leech/DOT into account, dodge and HP wins out. If you take those into account, the smoothed out damage (versus the spike you get from relying on dodge) is probably easier to manage. Plus you won’t get shafted by DOT.

What we also need to take into account is the opportunity cost. All the set protections/hp/dodge are prefixes. You need to take up 12 prefixes to fully gear out set elemental and set non-elemental protections. Set HP and set dodge takes up 8 prefixes (and a number of suffixes for the added dodge that is required for the % dodge to apply to). You can save valuable prefix slots by taking out set elemental and just get added elemental protections in the suffix slots, but efficiency takes a hit (4 slots using added elemental protection suffix slots gives you 1100 elemental protection assuming tier 7 max rolls).

Set HP + set dodge pairs up well since you can max it out easily. It’s hard to match set HP + protections as you have too many prefix slots to do so. And if you’re not going to have 4 items with the set affix, it’s not worth it (might as well take the suffix protections). Set dodge + set protections run into the same opportunity cost issue. There’s only so many prefix slots.

Oddly enough (at least to me), protections + dodge wins out against HP + dodge. But again, not realistic considering the slots.

Assuming my math checks out and my understanding of the game mechanics is correct, going dodge with HP is more efficient with the prefix slots. But you have to take into account unlucky damage spikes (not dodging and the attack crits) and play really carefully around DOTs because those will just wreck you as your dodge AND GB does nothing against it. Oh and another thing to take into account is set GB prefix slots. You can get 4 set GB on four prefix slots with 4 set HP and 4 set dodge. You can’t realistically have 4 sets of protections and expect to have 4 slots for set GB. Again, suffix slots can be used but efficiency will always take a hit going the non-set route. ALSO set dodge can go lower depending on how much added dodge you add to your suffix slot (and at what dodge % you’re comfortable at).

However considering DOTs, I’m more inclined to go the protection route even if it’s less efficient. DOTs just really murder you with just dodge.

Assuming again that my math checks out and I’m understanding things correctly, here’s what I would like to see changed:

  • Take out set void/armor protections and set poison/necrotic protections.
  • Add a set non-elemental (can rename) protections (not including armor).
  • Make armor adjustments to adjust for void/armor protection set being taken out.
  • Allow dodge and GB apply to DOTs in some form.
  • A little bit of a tangent here, but I’d like to see GB taken out of the game. Realistically everyone who understands the game always tries to get 100% GB. If it’s not a choice and taken across the board, why not remove GB + lower damage across the board + lower prefix values on sets (more prefix slots open up)? To me affixes are about choice. Will you add damage here? What kind of defenses are you going for? Are you going for something niche that adds to your build? If you have to apply 100% GB that is required, that’s more of a chore to fit in GB affixes and not a choice. Right now I go for 4 set GB prefixes and work my prefixes around that and would probably do that for the majority of my characters.

The game is probably at a state where these changes are not realistic as they touch the foundations. There’s probably a sweet spot of protections + HP + dodge that can work well. Theoretically you can create a meatshield maxing those out using all the prefix and suffix slots. But opportunity cost strikes again, damage will suffer.

3 Likes
11

People get murdered by DoT damage because the community thinks GB is a mandatory stat. GB does nothing against DoTs. Maybe it is actually better to invest further into resists than try to squeeze it in behind GB? DoTs seem to be countered by leech and regen, which doesn’t even seem close to good enough, but might be with crazy high resists.

Most of the math also seems heavily dependent on the chosen class. If the class has tree nodes that increase specific defensive traits, it is probably more efficient to choose that trait.

I know that Werebear has a node that increases armor and protections by a percentage.

1 Like
12

The problem with protections is that they have diminishing returns, so each point you add is less effective than the last.

Glancing Blow is mandatory because it halves the damage for the majority of incoming damage.

But yes, the maths of what is “best” (or most effective per point/affix slot) is entirely dependent on what class & mastery you have. A Sentinel is going to be far less able to use Ward effectively than a Mage/Acolyte due to the Sentinel having less Int or Ward Retention on the passive trees & fewer ways to generate the large amounts of Ward that’s necessary to make it an effective defence during combat.

13

What is the order of mitigation? When is glancing blow checked? Dodge builds make GB less efficient as Dodge is first. If you are a dodge build, it may be more beneficial to find a way to mitigate DoTs over GB. It seems like GB is the last thing checked in damage calculations. This matters.

Given the same reasoning, Protections on a block build seem worse as high protections minimize the effectiveness of block.

14

The order doesn’t matter as long as dodge happens first then block happens before the damage mitigation from protections occurs.

For example, if you have 70% mitigation from protections, have capped glancing blow & take a 1,000 hit:
Glancing blow then protections -
1,000 x 0.5 x (1 - 0.7) = 150 damage taken to hp

Glancing blow after protections -
1,000 x (1 - 0.7) x 0.5 = 150 damage taken to hp

Yes, if you’ve got a high chance to dodge, then some way to mitigate the damage from DoTs may be more effective in terms of affix slots or passive points. Glancing Blow is still important, because it reduces any hit damage by 50%, but it would be less important for a dodge build.

High protections in general protect you from one shots, if you have 1k hp & 4k protection then you it will take a 5,001 damage hit to kill you. If you blocked that hit & had 2k block protection, that 5k hit would take you down to ~14% of your hp. If you have “tanky” levels of protections and then you add on 1-2k of block protection then you’re probably getting hard into the diminishing returns, yes. As you can see from the below figures, as you add more protection the less % damage mitigation you get from it, the source of the protection doesn’t matter to the calculation though if it’s from block then you can fail the block roll & have “only” 3k protection (75% mitigation with 1k hp) instead of 5k (83% mitigation with 1k hp).

1 Like
15

That is exactly my point. Depending on the order of mitigation, certain types of mitigation gain and lose efficiency depending on the other mitigation stats you take.

If you invest heavily into dodge, to have 70% dodge chance, then GB is only effective 30% of the time. Would those slots be more efficiently used as a way to mitigate DoTs at that point?

It is impossible to stack all of the defensive layers, so you have to pick and choose. The ones you choose should synergize with each other.

Before even coming into the decision of mitigation, one should choose the way they want to take damage. Hit less often but for more damage, or hit more often but for less damage?

Spiky damage builds worry less about minimizing the damage of a specific hit, but focus on avoiding as many hits as possible. This works well with high Health/Ward and a fast way for it to recover if you haven’t been hit for a couple seconds. Exsanguinous builds are probably much better with spiky damage. (Exsanguinous + Dodge)

Stable damage builds are probably best with very high protections to level out incoming damage and leech to stay alive. High health and leech work against each other, but high protections make leech much more efficient.

Depending on the way you want to take damage, it changes the value of each type of mitigation.

There are a few types of mitigation that are almost universally good. Crit Avoidance just because it isn’t a prefix. Damage Reduction reduces all incoming damage and is just good. Reduced damage over time taken as that damage can’t be dodged/blocked/GBd. Move speed because getting out of the way of the damage avoids it altogether.

16

Protection formula seems to be protection/(protection + hp).

Hp: 100
Protection: 100

100/(100+100) = 50%

Keep adding 100 protection

200/(200+100)= 66.6%
300/(300+100)= 75%
400/(400+100)= 80%
500/(500+100)= 83%

Say you take 100 damage.

100 protection: 50 taken
200: 34 taken
300: 25 taken
400: 20 taken
500: 18 taken

It does look like diminishing returns, but look at it from how many hits to die pov. With 100 protection you die in 2 hits. With 200, you die in 3 hits. With 300, you die in 4 hits. With 400 you die in 5 hits and 6 hits with 500 protection. Doesn’t look like diminishing returns from that pov. Maybe it changes at higher values but don’t wanna do the math on my phone. Easier on excel so I’ll visit that tomorrow.

1 Like
17

Adding protection and adding health at equal values are basically the same. 600 health and no protections should die in the same number of hits as 100 health and 500 protections. When leech is added into the calculation, if you leech 50 HP per hit, you can see how the high protections side lasts much longer.

I don’t know the efficiency of increasing max health vs protections. It seems like you get much less health with affixes, but it isn’t spread out like 6/7 protections.

18

Or 1 - health / (health + protection)

Yes, but that’s not comparing apples with apples. What you’re saying is that characters with more EHP take more hits to be killed.

If you have a constant amount of EHP & shift it between all hp & no protection to high protection low hp you’ll see that either way takes the same number of hits to kill.

1 Like
19

Yes, he is saying that protections aren’t diminishing returns in real ehp. It is diminishing returns by percentage of max ehp.

20

You’d think damage mitigation is less effective with dodge (protections, GB are all forms of damage reduction). If you work out the math, DR actually works the best with dodge than straight hp. I wish I can share my excel sheet but that surprised me the most as it was counter intuitive.

1000 hp
Incoming damage: 100 per hit
70% dodge

Face value, you die around 30 hits. Double your hp and that’s around 60 hits to die. Add glancing blow to 1000 hp and you die around 70+ hits (50 damage each hit with 70% dodge, 150 damage every 10 hits)