Well, the discussion on the PoE forums was (I am taking a break right now so I am talking about 6-7 months ago) even more fierce. We are talking hundreds, probably thousands of posts over the years. Nothing happened, the game kept being a huge success and didn’t lose any significant number of players. So I dunno, it seems strange for a much smaller players-wise game to impose such modes while the bigger one didn’t.
Yeah because death peneltys in PoE don’t matter. You need to be a very special person to die in PoE. All you need is to get your defences in your build right and to have enough resis. Mechanicly PoE is like every other ARPG not that much to take care of.
At the end of the day I don’t care because LE is a “Go tank or go home!” game and if the devs want it to be that way everything is fine. After the first couple of build guides noone should have issues anyway.
Still I think a casual gamemode would help certain players and there is no harm done if we get one. If 200 eletists feel alone by themself on their choosen difficulty… well though luck.
Well thats weird. You keep saying how easy it is to not die yet you assume that the majority of the people who would want to play the game will choose easy mode. Which one is it?
Losing exp like in PoE is bad. Like people have already mentioned in this thread it just encourages running content that is really easy instead of actually challenging yourself with hard content. Losing gold like in D2 also sucks. You either lose a large amount like in D2 and it makes gold unreliable as a currency, or you lose so little you just brush it off.
I’m gonna recommend the way Sacred 2 did it. As long as you stayed alive you built up a magic find bonus and it would reset once you died. That way you do want to avoid dying, but you don’t lose progress when you do.
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I beg to differ. My highest level character in PoE is level 99.5. I could have pushed for level 100 but got bored eventually. It was in Delve league and I was running deep delve and tier 16 maps with 8 mods without a problem. Don’t assume all level 100 guys run easy content. You cannot do it fast enough if you don’t take risks.
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I’ve never played Sacred 2, but I really like the sound of something like this. Positive reinforcement is a good thing.
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There is that desert area that summons random wraiths that attack you regardless of where you are on the map or how many enemies you defeated. I have died more than once in that area because I had to get away from my computer and couldn’t get back to realize there were enemies approaching.
People are going to get extremely angry if they die due to a one-shot, difficulty spike, or lag (doubly so for those who play with a controller or other control schemes that people play for ergonomic reasons, such as myself) and lose progress towards wondering if their build concept is even going to work in the first place. Not everybody has gear that attends to their needs, and a significant portion of the playerbase is likely to want to play off-line with no regards to a multiplayer economy. Penalizing them is just going to anger them more than anything, because they’re not the ones that are willing to play for hours and hours just to get back to the place they started. The ones that are willing to do so aren’t going to care that much about it because they’re going to grind regardless. This really is a matter of disregarding multiple segments of the playerbase just to give “the feelz” to the portion of the playerbase that would get affected by these penalties the least. It’s madness.
That is an excellent point that i haven’t thought of. Maybe devs could remove penalty when you die from such sources.
What also could solve such a problem is a pause function (if you are playing singleplayer and no other Player are on your server)
I understand that there are and will be alot of player treating this game as some kind of singleplayer/solo game but if you have the opportunity to use some of the “online” features such as a Bazaar i think even casual player could benefit from a healthy economy, by either trying out some new build ideas and buying some low/medicore items from the bazaar or Maybe if they find themselves a really nice item they have no use for and they can sell it
that sounds like you have a really really harsh penalty in mind, which hasn’t to be the case. Thats what i already said here about “a good tuned penalty”
Wow that sounds also like a really good alternative.
@devs i hope this whole discussion don’t get too much off course because alot of the feedback here is centered around the “possibility” that those death penalties would include gold loss (and we don’t even know if you plan to include that in such a death Penalty)
This has to be at the forefront of any death penalty discussion. It is hubris of game developers to think their game is more important than the humanity of the players. Sometimes we will have real life intrude on us mid fight!
My suggestions is to give players choice over what form their death penalty takes:
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Hate losing XP? No problem, your death can cost you gold and magic find chance for the next 3000 kills.
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Do you want to run some really hard and challenging fights? To prepare, you can run the ‘gauntlet’, an area that if you are successful will reduce your death penalty for the next 5 instances.
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Plan on playing a squishy build? You can spend gold on a death related NPC to make your death penalty change forms or be less punishing. This would, incidentally, make the clearspeed meta more rewarding for tanky builds, who may be able to save more gold than the squishy dying build earns…
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Plan on playing hardcore, but the game still has glitches, lag, unplayable oneshots? Lucky for you, the game now has very expensive items called phoenix stones that burn away an item/large amount of gold/skill points/crafting materials, but otherwise resurrect you at the same level of progress.
Consideting that we already have death penalty in the Monolyth and the Arena (loss of all progress), I don’t think that more is needed.
And this is going to be balanced how? How are you sure that the different kinds will be in the end equal? Because they absolutely wont be and the majority of players who care about competition will always gravitate towards the less punishing one. Gold for example. You can trade for gold, you cant trade for exp. So if you even want for both of them to be the same deal you need the gold penalty to be absolutely massive in comparison. Which will be a headache to balance.
Also I don’t think many of you understand what a tanky build is exactly. There is absolutely 0 point to build tanky in a SC environment because a fast clearing glass cannon will out damage and out speed it, thus gaining more currency and achieving better progress than the slower tank. You may argue that the tank will in the end reach higher arena levels but in comparison the glass cannon will farm much faster and get better gear so the difference will be negligible.
Imagine if death penalty was removed from PoE. Almost everybody in SC will play a ranger because they have the best speed and best damage, the tankiness is being removed as an equation so why care about it. See, death penalty in this situation increases the number of possible builds and playstyles, it makes the game overall better.
It doesn’t need to be balanced. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the majority of players choosing one option.
I’m not sure, it’s a suggestion thread. Surety is not relevant here.
Irony is fun.
Those are 2 of various game modes. And both are meant to be “finished” at some point via death or via cashing in reward.
“Losing Progress” in those modes is no “death penalty” in the sense of this topic here i think.
There will be many more different game modes/activities and in my opinion we should have a death penalty somwhat everywhere, maybe with a few exceptions for example in PvP.
What’s wierd about that? For me it’s easy but a lot of people will say otherwise. I simply see the whole spectrum of players there are and not only my point of view. For example when I read your stuff I’m asking myself why you even want to play because it seems that there nothing you can get out of a game because you are that skilled.
People should be allowed to choose what they want but at the end of the day I realy don’t care if there is a death penelty or not in a PvE game, because if I die it was my fault. I don’t make faults normaly so I couldn’t care less.
On the other hand I still try not to forgett about people who simply want to play and don’t keep up with all the theory crafting. Like early PoE days when I thought 90% increased maxlife could be enough when I do a ton of dmg and it took only 4-5h untill I saw this isn’t working. At this point other potential players might already be frustraded, leave a bad review and never touch the game again because they lost a lot of their gains because they died.
I can’t help it if you’ve never encountered this but I know a lot of people who prefer to play a game instead of spreadsheets, wikis and build guides without beeing punsihed for it ;).
This is somthing that is a good thing. Loosing a stacking buff isn’t the end of the world and you only lost something you had on top. This option might be one of the best to cater to hardcore as well as casual players because hardcore people get more out of the game and casuals don’t mind loosing a buff that is restackable normaly. That’s so far one of the better options I read here. Now I need to reinstall Sacred 2 and take a look at it if realy have forgotten about this :D.
A Death Penalty in games like this and how they go about implementing it in this game comes down to one huge determining factor… What exactly is the vision of Endgame for this game? Why is the vision of endgame important? well…
POE has a 10% Experience Penalty on Death. And this works in POE because for starters Endgame doesn’t start at Max Level. In fact Max Level isn’t even remotely nessisary in order to engage the endgame content in fact level 100 in POE is the end of line even playing on that character anymore. Making max level in that game more like Diablo 2 where its not nessisary in the first place for progression or endgame content but rather a Goal the player can set for themselves but its one hell of a grind in order to do so. You not only need to grind many hours to achieve this but also have knowledge of the game and build making in order to make durable builds that do not die while still retaining damage to complete content quickly enough for good exp gains.
But then you have games like Diablo 3 where endgame doesn’t even Start until Max Level in this case an Experience Penalty not only is pointless but, could hinder a player even making to endgame at all. Thus why the penalty is based around Gold Loss via Gear Repair Mechanic. Even if they had an Experience Penalty it would be moot for 99% of the games content because the endgame content doesn’t even start till max level so at that point what are you going to lose? Hell it might even have an exp pen i dont even remember simply because 99% of my playtime in D3 was endgame level 70 (60 Vanilla) D3 also has a mechanic that allows you to gain more exp on your bar from shrines BUT, if you do die with the exp bonus you lose that bonus.
So in the end whatever Penalty for Death will be decided for this game will be completely based upon what is Endgame going to be in Last Epoch? Where is endgame? Is it Max Level 100? If so what even would be the point of an Experience Penalty? Not to mention there already is somewhat of a Death Pen already at least in the case of Monoliths… You built up mods to get better exp and loot but once you die you must start completely over which is already quite punishing if you have built up a bunch of nice Extra Exp and Loot %. Same with Arena you die in there that’s the end of that key and you start over from Wave 1 again. So adding on top of that losing exp might be a little much? Again just depends on what endgame is going to be in the end as well as Balance. But, i think i would like to see something a little more creative for punishment for death than just -10% exp personally. Especially in this game that is already doing a lot of interesting things already.
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Death penalty is a good way to slow down progression of players. But development team must first do their homework before implementing to game :
- Optimize game to smoothly run on any graphic settings .
- Optimize their server’s . Reduces lag if multiplayer mode will exist at all.
- Max level should be at least 100
Death Penalty should look like this:
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Soft core only this.
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Death penalty receive less experience between lvl 30 and 50, player death will give him -30% exp gain per kill for entire one level to gain higher. Between lvl 50 and 80 , player have -50 % less exp gain. Lastly from level 80 , player death have - 70% gain exp penalty.
Until level 30 reach player there is no penalty. -
On last phase release.
This will only hurt people with less time to play and people who play regulary will have a good laugh.
In the past there was only one death penelty that was worthwhile: The loos of all equipped gear and the inventory. Everything since then was just an artifical way to make grind more tedious or simply neglectable like in D3. Sure xp losses like in Lineage 2 hurt a bit because you los weeks of progress at a certain point but people who played a lot had no problem because they simply invest enough time.
What is a meaningfull death penalty these times? I have no clue to me this is something from the past like attributes and stuff that was something nice back in the days when D&D came out. I still think everyone who wants a death penelty should play HC and be good with it because wonky builds that don’t work are bad enough to play with and consume enough time.
Every player who thought his build through and knows what to build and what defenses to go for is almost never thretend to die. The only people who would realy suffer from death penaltys will be those who have far bigger problems to beginn with then making a missclick in the game.
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