Dead HC toon can't use CoF items in SC

It stayed ‘off cycle’ as well and persisted in Legacy. So I’m taking my info from there. Actually the prices in Legacy are vastly higher then they ever were in cycle given that everyone migrated automatically into the cycle from PoE because they’re used to it.

So that’s another thing to be unsure about.

Why do you care about a big amount of glyphs/runes then? :stuck_out_tongue:

It showcases the difference in drop rates. CoF plainly spoken is utterly insane in drop-rates. MG works on 0,7 times the 0.9 rate, which is ok but definitely not much.

I am aware that Cycle 1.0 merged into Legacy. Which means, using Legacy as your basis has the same issue :smiley:

I never said I need a big amount of glyphs/runes either :stuck_out_tongue:
As for why, because until I started doing prophecies for them, I always had close to zero.

I’m not very interested in drop rates, but assuming your numbers are correct, 63% of CoF drop rates? Doesn’t sound like “utterly insane”.
But I think you’re forgetting that in CoF, you are farming alone. In MG, I am farming with the other 10 000+ players in my league.

Actually no! Since for some reason EHG thought it the perfect solution to delete all market listing into the nirvana. So… It’s a very very odd state. Actually a bit baffling.
They definitely have their work cut out for cycle migrations, they screwed up a few things there, clearly not being ready.

Yes, which makes sense for CoF given the amount of drops for possible basis to upgrade from.
In MG the upgrades are more spaced out but bigger, hence far less need for those.

So cross-usage for those from CoF in MG is just not a thing which would be done in a reasonably viable way, hence no double-dipping with meaning behind it, which was the point of it.

Nonono… that’s not how it works.

I’ll explain the changes and effects from 0.9 to 1.0.

So, the baseline in 0.9 is ‘100%’. That was what the game dropped, for everyone at any time without trade.

In 1.0 we got 2 states. MG and CoF.

MG drops 70%, period, nothing increases it, you have to make up for the lost 30% compared to 0.9 with the market.

CoF drops around… 200% exalted items and around 500% unique items in pure quantity compared to 0.9.

That’s the difference. As a baseline drop-rate freshly reaching empowered monoliths in MG you get around 1 unique per map and between 5-10 exalted items for a full-clear, some clearly less (if the rares are missing mostly) and some more (if it’s rare-heavy).
At the same time I dropped around 15-20 exalted items per map in CoF, with around 4-5 uniques per map with the prophecies.

Yes, absolutely true! Albeit it’s not 10k+, the majority uses MG for buying items and barely listing worthwhile things. It’s mostly use as a dumping mechanic for garbage to access higher ranks, which is an issue. Favor cost for listing is detrimental to the market state because the cost isn’t a viable hindrance for listing itself but a way to progress instead, causing prices to go ‘out of whack’ completely.

So actual listings are far less, worthless junk galore and actual worthwhile listings being either extremely cheap (by the lack of proper price checking options, the UI is hot garbage to say it mildly) or so rare that it’s hard to get one under several millions priced.
For example I’ve just looked up simple T7 attack speed gloves on the DoT mitigation base and there’s a whooping… ‘0’ listed in legacy.
Armor and critical reduction… ‘0’ listed.
Hybrid health… ‘0’ listed.

You can have the whole community going around, but if there’s no listing then that means you can have as much gold as you want… you can’t buy it anyway.

So, I went along to get the Jasper stuff with 3 LP, 2 listings! 10 mil and 100 mil.
If we go by the logic that you get access from everyone together it should be much more, right? But the rarity of specific drops is so high in MG with the reduced drop-rate that you simply have far too little supply compared to demand.

That’s the reality of the current system.

Because if you allow both, the optimal strategy will be to use both. Whether it’s use MG to gear up and CoF to farm or the opposite, whether it’s use CoF for leveling and MG for endgame, whichever it ends up being, if you allow both, an optimal strategy will emerge of using both. It’s inevitable.
Which means that players that don’t want to trade will feel obligated to use it or feel left behind.

Actually yes! The millions of gold in people’s pockets from Cycle 1.0 wasn’t deleted afaik.

No. Me having zero Glyphs of Despair has no relation to how many drops drop in CoF.
In 1.1, we have new Glyph of Envy, I wonder if there’s a new prophecy for it too :slight_smile:

In MG, there is far less need for those, because the moment I hit lvl 62 I bought 0LP Scales of Eterra for 0 gold and now I don’t need to worry about upgrading my off-hand for the foreseeable future. And there are LP listings for when I hit rank 7, and Legendary listings for when I hit rank 11.

Ah you meant the game version 0.9. I read that as “0.9 rates of CoF rates”.

That still doesn’t sound like “utterly insane” droprates. They should buff those numbers.

If that were true, there wouldn’t be anything to buy :wink: But there is stuff to buy. Specifically, there is lots of stuff to buy in Softcore Normal league.

I agree the UI sucks. Specifically my grief is using all the dropdowns.

I liked the World of Warcraft auction house:

Yes yes… I heard that argument already.

I never heard actual worthwhile examples though which I’m asking about.

Will one be 5% better to use then the other at a specific stage? Sure! Will one be vastly better? Sure!
I personally would say leveling up with MG, switching to CoF and then back again would be the optimum… but if you think like that you’re falling into a fallacy there because you forget to take one important aspect into consideration.
Progressing the ranks comes at a cost, a time-investment.
If you progress MG you’ll loose out on all the potential loot dropped from CoF + the potential rank difference as well. If you progress CoF you’ll loose out on all the access for gear from MG which would align with the potential rank, as well as sellable items. It’s not a ‘you get both’ but a perfect ‘give and take’ there in the first place.

Also, a secondary issue… progression rate doesn’t align with the factions, you get access to different things at different times. CoF has a perfect progression rate because it is dependant on content you run. MG is not. That’s a design problem, not a framework problem of the system. One which I’ve mentioned that it needs to be fixed anyway.

So, let’s take the ‘optimal’ situation. You start as MG to access all uniques and idols early. Now you suddenly have your full unique setup handled and the idols filled up with ‘working ones’. Optimal can’t be afforded, LP can’t be bought.
Hence you switch over to CoF, but CoF doesn’t give you the bonuses which you should get by that time. Which means you loose out on 45% extra drop-rate + 50% idol drop rate (25% for thrice, hence instead of 4 you drop 6 idols overall in big number law).
Also you’re missing the favor which should’ve been used up to that time for unique drop prophecies to achieve your LP uniques, you got the baseline at least.
Ok, so… common uniques are handled with 2 LP drops and rare uniques (outside of bosses) with 1 LP, which is… Rank 8. That’s the next breaking point. Your switch to MG.
Now you don’t have access to any exalted to buy, and you don’t have gold. You need to farm up to Rank 8 with that to get proper access.

You see the issue? It’s not ‘better’, and by the time it would be more functional it’s too late for it, there’s no reason to switch anyway.

Even worse currently!
Imagine someone realizing that CoF sucks for them. They wanna switch.
Now they got to restart basically if they got fairly far into it.

I would deem that far far worse then the alternative option.

Same for Legacy, you can have a billion in your pocket when there’s no listing available :stuck_out_tongue:

That’s solely a progression item, not relevant for crafting itself as it randomizes the mods you’re not upgrading. So you can easily ruin a exalted item since exalted affixes can’t be upgraded. They’re simply there for corruption progression.

Yes, those happen because of the forced listing mechanic.
Which is bad.
Which is why I’m saying ‘favor cost for listing is dumb’. Because that’s the outcome.
Would happen anyway? Yes! By a factor of a hundred less though. You don’t list a item which has a high cost for listing attached to it without reason commonly, you use those costs for something else.

If EHG wants to use favor cost for listing then that favor needs to be used a collateral and not as instant payment for progression. So if it’s sold then you get it rewarded, if it’s not sold then it’s dead usage. Enforces listings to be done with intent rather then out of necessity.
Even better when favor is solely used for payment of items and scaling with item prices instead. Mandates saving that up for expensive items.

Also scales are a rare drop, their access shouldn’t be handled together with common uniques in Rank 3 in the first place, they should be available later. Much like rare boss uniques shouldn’t be in Rank 3 and especially not empowered boss uniques in Rank 3. That’s a design error again.

Once again, see proper priced scaling + non-enforced listing for rep gain.

Legendary listing are a mythical unicorn which doesn’t exist.
Out of all 3 variants in Legacy there exists a single listing which has a whooping 12% elemental resistances on it.

As for LP listings… 1 LP is doable, 2 LP has ‘1’ listing for the cold/fire variant, none for the others.

MG is a mess in terms of supply/demand and access. It’s a disaster.

It’s thrice the amount of exalted items compared to MG and over 7 times uniques compared to MG.

What? buffing it? That’s nonsensical already, the lack has been target farmed boss-uniques, everything else was just CoF people saying ‘But I can’t get 3LP+ versions of it while MG can buy them anytime!’… yeah, sorry, not anymore, the initial instability has turned into ‘we don’t have listings for it’ so we can’t buy it and personal farming is unreasonable in the first place outside CoF.

Oh, there’s a lot to buy! Garbage over garbage with garbage as a topping. But the actual ‘good’ items? They don’t exist.

So yes, I’m unable to buy most things since they don’t exist, with that I mean bases to even attempt my optimal crafts, I need 5-10 of those to achieve the outcome needed after all.
I’m fine with grinding up to achieve it… but it not existing and hence not being able to even attempt it since each try costs 15+ mil every months once to find a single listing nobody has snatched up yet? It’s not optimal to say it mildly.

Try to price check then.
Go ahead and sort by highest roll… ah wait… right… we can’t do that!
Or check for a secondary affix beyond the T7… oh wait, it’s not possible!
I think they at least fixed including the missing affixes for idols? I’m not sure for that, gonna need to test it out with a few.

So yeah, MG is a hot mess for functionality and overall setup.

The only reason any double-dipping can even happen is because MG is set up like a hot mess in many ways.
Those double-dipping options are miniscule nonetheless as the downside to attempt to doing it is massive.
Hence the punishment for switching factions is just a ridiculous notion. Neither the removal of prophecies, nor the removal of favor nor the removal of item usage is any any way/shape or form reasonably implemented.

You’re forgetting legacy is a thing. Right now I have rank 9 in both, mostly because I tend to switch characters a lot and don’t delve too deep into endgame. I’m sure many people have max rank in both already. So for everyone that plays legacy, a strategy will emerge where they can switch at wil for an optimal strategy.
And people that don’t like to trade will feel like they have to, much like already happens in PoE.

How is that any different from what you propose. They got to rank 5 in CoF and switch to MG, they always start at rank 1. The only difference is being able to still equip the CoF tagged gear, which, I should note, is actually a small percentage of your drops.

EDIT: you seem to be forgetting a simple fact: CoF exists for the single reason that some people don’t want to trade. If you make it so that you can switch at will and CoF doesn’t prevent you from trading, you’re taking away from those players.

Well, go tell then how you expect this to look like.

If you go into MG you don’t get extra drops, so CoF is immediately useless. Your main resource - gold - would’ve been far faster to acquire in MG, you’re at a detriment for every second of CoF used.

If you switch from MG to CoF then you don’t get any favor… which… as already mentioned needs to scale. So there’s - currently - less of a downside, a nigh non existent one.
But that’s EHGs fault for the way they implemented it. Once again, you can’t say ‘the limitations are great!’ when the implementation of a system is screwed up. You fix the system properly and look ahead how a fixed system would interact with each other.
But again, why go into CoF in the first place from MG? Ah yes, because you can’t buy high-end stuff in MG currently in Legacy anyway because there’s nothing listed :stuck_out_tongue:
Without the functionality it can’t be used properly, simple as that. You can’t price check, which is a mandatory baseline function given the affix system in the game. It’s missing.

Implement MG properly and you don’t get double dipping anyway.
In the current state switching is not relevant since when you reach Rank 9 you’re ‘done’ already and you either farm for gold and decent sell-able items or you are in CoF trying to get it yourself. It’s fairly even. It provides no upside to change outside of… flavor.
Flavor is hindered, you can’t switch with your mood despite not having a distinctive upside presented.

You can play on in 200 corruption without bricking your character since half your idol page is unusable and your main items.
That’s the difference.

The tagged items from MG are those which are the most important.
The tagged items from CoF have no function since they’re all sub-tagged ‘non tradable’ anyway while using that faction.

You don’t ‘take away’, that’s nonsensical in argumentation alone.

One provides a bonus by personal effort.
One provides a bonus through community effort.

You either grind the resources to use the mechanics of one… or you grind for resources for the other.
Without favor you don’t get items form MG (yes, laughable cheap, hence scaling needed)
Without favor you can’t use prophecies.

That’s all the limitations needed.
You take jack-shit away. It’s flavor it’s playstyle, they’re nigh equivalent at end-game, just different in how you get your items. You either wait months for a listing or you grind months for a drop. It doesn’t matter. The argument of ‘MG is always better’ has failed in LE, MG is currently worse actually.

There is no forced listing mechanic. You don’t need to list anything to progress in the ranks.

Something being a rare drop or a specific drop doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be available on the auction.

Personal farming isn’t unreasonable. And you already always farm for things. Favor included.

They do.

Is this perhaps your first time playing a game with economy based around the players?

Firstly, clunky UI and completely missing filtering options are two different things.
Secondly, searching for Solarum Greathelm with Attunement affix above r3 and checking the prices was still very possible.

I’m just going to reply as a whole.

If you’re in legacy, you already have max rank in both and you have lots of favour in both and you already have lots of gold. The restrictions you mention don’t apply to legacy. Which means that you then end up with a balanced cycle but legacy becomes way more unbalanced and switching is the norm.

The only reason CoF exists is because in EA half the players said they didn’t want to trade.
If you allow CoF to trade, you do take something from them. You might say you don’t, but you do. It’s like saying that adding a god mode option doesn’t take anything away from the game because it’s an option, when it clearly does.

Lastly, there is a simple argument for this:
-Either there is a benefit to switching factions back and forth, in which case CoF players will always feel like they have to trade, like in PoE, or
-There is no benefit to switching factions, in which case nothing needs to change.

Listing needs favor.
Spending favor is 50% of your reputation gain.
Favor income *vastly outstrips any need for a full payment of gear since it’s a fixed price by item type.
The trader for favor is a joke, you can throw money into a well and wish for good luck and it’s nearly as effective.

So yes, it’s enforced in the current state as you don’t have a viable alternative to spent favor. Hence you list worthless crap since you need to use up your favor to progress.

Never said that.
I criticize the positioning of the restriction mechanic.
A common unique and a empowered boss unique shouldn’t be available at the exact same second.

Which should be a no-brainer. Accessing empowered timeline specific loot before having access to empowered timelines is a massively failed design choice. It’s baffling how that got through in the first place… it’s baffling how after 3 month of it existing it’s not adjusted accordingly.

If you want to farm for a 2 LP Wraithlord Arbor through personal drops as a MG player instead of buying it you can also simply go and buy a lottery ticket and hope for the jackpot.
In CoF it’s still a reasonable drop, albeit takes a while.

Basic non-LP uniques, yes.
T7 top-tier base items with the proper T7 affix? No.

Re-read, I gave examples. A LP 2 rare unique is something which is feasible to be farmed through CoF, it’s nonexistent in MG currently.

So don’t say ‘yes’ when 2 minutes checking immediately tells you it’s ‘no’. Don’t argue for the sake of arguing, fact-check first.

Dunno, do 8500 hours Path of Exile count?
I’m a Standard player there. I can buy good equipment which comes close to BiS or even BiS at any time I have the funds there.
I can’t in LE since the market isn’t working out all too well currently. I would argue to a decent degree because the baseline functionality to handle it comfortably isn’t there. I could be wrong but I doubt that to be the case after 3 months of pure frustration with all the issues it has and the sheer time investment needed to price items and check for availability.

I mean… we can’t even have a search for 2 different tiered affixes at once. Not to speak of actual QoL mechanics like ‘on the fly’ price checks of a pre-existing item. Click, open price check window, choose base + affix, see results listed by cheapest price.

It’s already baffling enough that the default listing method is ‘newest to oldest’ rather then ‘Gold: Low to High’. Which should be a given as a baseline.

Ok, very simple search.
Do one for a double health idol (% and flat) and then tell me what the currently cheapest one with 5% health is, and how the cheapest one for the lowest flat roll compares to the highest roll.
I can eat lunch during the time that check alone takes and then to price 1 singular item which is actually good accordingly. And that’s one you actually find decently often!

And even that only has 7 pages total available, actually 6… page 7 has only 1 listing, prices are all over the place since nobody knows how the heck their item compares to others.

And let’s not start with the fact that we can’t re-price items without re-paying the favor price again. That’s baffling.

As said, MG is a hot mess.

Yeah, my favor is gone the moment I switch faction though. So no, I don’t have a lot of favor, I have it once. Why is it gone? I don’t know… we already have the faction tagging after all, so why would it be needed in the first place?
And if the faction tagging wasn’t there… why would it be needed anyway when I can make a second character and nonetheless do it?
Serves no function. Detriment for no reason.
Same as to why my prophecies just go ‘poof’ when I switch away from CoF. Makes no sense. Set them inactive instead.

You… don’t… allow… CoF… to… trade.
You can switch anytime with the downsides.
Your character can trade whenever.
The only hindrance is to choose your personal ‘flavor of the day’ already.
It’s not ‘choose your style’ at the beginning of a character, it’s a switchable faction.
Why would you allow faction switching if your argument is the case? It makes no sense, especially in conjunction with ‘Only a minority of items gets faction tagged through CoF’. Because yes! That’s a problem! Upgraded items don’t, only freshly created items do.

So… why can I take over upgraded items from CoF into MG and use them? They’re affected by the mechanic. At least be consistent in one thing!

It’s… a… mess. Simple as that.

That’s the bs though, it doesn’t stay true.

Who are you to decide that someone should be punished to switch when there’s no actual need to be?
What’s the reason behind it.
In case that there’s no need to change but simply a want to change… what point speaks against it?
EHG provided us with the option after all, so there has to be a reason as to why it should be a possibility.

You know… like… ‘Eh, I don’t feel like CoF anymore, I would rather go MG’ or the alternative ‘Eh… I don’t enjoy trading anymore, I would rather go and play CoF’.

Why do I have to make 2 identical characters to enjoy my ‘flavor of the day’ when it could simply be handled with 1? And if the argument is ‘well, input the effort to do that at least’ then fine! No issue with it! I’ll gladly play up a second character. So a rooster of MG characters and a rooster of CoF characters.

But I can’t! We don’t have enough character slots to even do that. I would need 30, we don’t have that.
So before not either the limitations are gone or the character limit is increased to 35 (30 permanent ones for Legacy, 15 for MG 15 for CoF + 5 for cycle/hardcore whatever) or this arbitrary limitation not letting me play in the style I want is gone I won’t be happy about it.
Why? Because it’s not reasonable. We have the option with miniscule amounts of effort extra to ‘play both factions up’ already! Because of that the reason is simply non-existent as we can already do it. We’re simply limited by technical database reasons do actually execute it.

That is how it is now to desincentivize switching. That’s not how you propose it to be, though.

In fact, with your idea you can simply have a character for MG that buys all the stuff for your CoF characters. You play it every once in a while to farm favour, then when you make a new character you buy all the low/mid/end level gear, put it in the chest, then create the character as CoF which now has better drops and once he levels he can simply gear up the BiS gear you bought as MG.

Except you can bypass those downsides easily as I just mentioned above.

It’s the same reason someone is “punished” for respecing skills. And like respeccing skills, you usually make up for lost time a lot faster at endgame.
After all, you could apply that same argument to skill respec and even to mastery respec.

MG/CoF is part of character identity. If you want to change the identity you should either not be allowed at all or you should be penalized for it.

It should be the same as “Eh, I don’t feel like playing Runemaster anymore. I would rather go Necro”. You want to change, make a new character.

Again, that argument could also be applied to mastery respec. There is no difference between the 2. So it’s a design/flavor/identity choice.

Yeah? So?
Again… where does the gold come from?

Can’t I do exactly that already anyway?

If I have the gold what hinders me to make a new character, outfit it completely in MG when I’m max rank there… play it up and switch to CoF right away?
Beginner gear costs literally nothing after all. There’s tons available since MG is treated as a garbage dumb of worthless items to progress.

How does that actually limit me from already abusing it this way? I don’t care about 30 minutes playtime to get enough favor for a single item back when switching. So why have it in the first place?

You’re talking about ‘endgame issues’, those are the ones which automatically solve themselves anyway by circumventing it simply.
So they have no purpose.

The end-result is one way or the other… I need to invest time to get gear to progress, after my first character - which won’t be able to double-dip because of the rank of the factions limiting it - I don’t have those limitations anymore.

So the current limitations hinder non-existent double-dipping for the first character and for the second character they… well… they don’t exist simply as you circumvent them anyway?

I mean… if the whole account would be bound to a single faction and switches around at the same time I could actually to a degree understand the thought process. Like this though? It’s just… baffling how badly it’s handled. It has more flaws, issues and arbitrary non-effective downsides then anything else. It lacks function. It’s badly done.

What hinders me now from doing exactly that? I get tons of early level drops, slap it onto my new character, play up, still have money… use MG.
The only hindrance is that I need to go to another CoF character, slap it full of prophecies to empty out my favor and then switch with the prophecy-less character to MG. I loose nothing, if it’s only my second character - and for some reason I already have ranks - then I can simply slap a few enemies to get some decent enough gear to do monoliths to buy some more decent enough gear to actually be at the top fairly swiftly.

Which is why I’m saying that gold is a mess to use as the medium to buy items, it removes the whole reason for the limitation in the first place. It’s arbitrary again.

You already can… it’s just a useless hassle! It doesn’t uphold for progressing in the first place… and when you’re done progressing you have equip for a secondary character immediately anyway, CoF or MG doesn’t matter. Unless you didn’t have any sort of foresight to actually keep a few cheap uniques for the campaign… which get thrown at you in masses.

But… it has a reason for the respec. It’s so you can’t change builds before a boss. Character identity.
Factions aren’t hinged on that.
Factions don’t allow build switch before bosses as you can only do it in town anyway.

It’s apples to oranges.

You can’t tell me that a faction is part of the ‘character identity’ either. The progression is account wise, the favor is account wise, the access is account wise. It has nothing to do with your personal character, it’s account based. That’s as far away from ‘character identity’ as one can argue.
You can’t use that term willy-nilly as a basic solution to everything, it needs to have meaning.

Yeah, and I do! No problem. 15 classes… I think it was 20 character slots? Nice! Works!

15 classes… 2 factions… 30 character slots… shit! Can’t do that. Big problem. Remove one limitation, character limit or faction change limit.

And that’s fair, hence… give me 35 character slots :slight_smile:
We don’t have that, it screws us over, can’t do it.

Remove it until it’s the case, simple solution. Make faction choice permanent then. It isn’t so it’s just a badly designed system. You can argue as much as you want about it but you get the ‘either/or’ there simply. If it’s meant to be part of the identity then don’t allow switching. If it’s not then there’s no reason to enforce us to make 2 characters. And it’s even worse that you’re punished account-wide and not your character if it should be part of it.
No matter how you twist and turn it at one corner you just… get stuck with it. It makes no sense either way despite being understandable where you come from there.

Got it?

That’s just your silly opinion.

Personally, I really enjoyed playing my first Amazon in Diablo 2 online and having a random guy pop into my game and dropping off his “trash loot” which were major upgrades from a higher difficulty I wouldn’t reach for quite some time. :slight_smile:

I also enjoy this benefit via Bazaar in LE.

I think you keep forgetting that every item you can buy was in fact farmed by an MG player.

I don’t see you posting screenshots of the Bazaar showing zero results of 2 LP uniques, so maybe take your own advice first.

So you’re not used to compete for the good stuff. That explains some of it.

Now go back to the time before PoE had Premium Tabs, or to the time when they had Premium Tabs, but didn’t have first-party OR third-party item search functionality. I wonder what your experience will be like.
Suddenly the “hot mess” looks much more favorable, eh? :smiley:

200 000 gold. Took about a minute.

Again, missing filter options and clunky UI are two different things. We were discussing clunky UI and I agreed with you that it sucks, I just cited a different reason.

I don’t know why are you asking me to search for an example of missing filter option, but I’m not particularly interested in searching for price differences between lowest and highest roll on a specific idol, so you can search for the comparison part yourself.

Yeah, this could essentially be done the exact same way that a character moves from Cycle to Legacy.

If I have a Cycle Faction state of 10 when on the current cycle and my legacy is 8, when the cycle ends and my characters are added to Legacy, my legacy faction is now a 10.

Should be the same thing with HC to SC.

The fact that as CoF you can’t use MG gear. That’s what’s stopping you right now. That’s the design that doesn’t allow you to abuse the mechanics and force everyone to trade.

As for gold, the meta would simply be to take the most broken character that can do high corruption, get a lot of gold that way and with selling gear that drops. You would need to play about 1/10th of the time you play with your CoF character to fully equip it with BiS gear.

Again, gear restrictions are what currently stop you from abusing this. And it’s what you want to remove, which would actually make this happen.

You can’t.

They are, though. Even more important, it’s linked to player/game identity. It’s why some players prefer CoF even though MG is easier to get BiS. Because they have a clear path without trading and without too significant downsides for their playstyle.
It’s also why many players left PoE, because there was no alternative to having to trade without feeling completely screwed over, because SSF in PoE is a joke.

I don’t disagree with this.

So, to recap: having no restriction on wearing gear will lead to having an op character in MG to quickly farm favour and sell stuff (and remember that gold is account wide, so your CoF characters are also contributing to your funds). This character could then simply buy all gear you need for your new CoF character that never even joins MG.
Whereas currently you can’t do that because you can’t equip the MG gear.

You might wanna re-read.

Go ahead and tell how to progress your rank without spending favor :slight_smile: Double the time investment? Sure, just the dumbest solution possible.

First of all, you can stick your sass where the sun doesn’t shine.

Secondly, D2 ‘trading’ was barely a in-built mechanic, derived from a time when game development wasn’t as advanced as it is nowadays, developers stumbling around partially blind still as online play wasn’t established heavily, especially not in that genre.

So the take itself is nonsensical.
Obviously you don’t want to let players skip progression as a in-built mechanic in the game. Manual trading is just tolerated, they could as well limit that and it would be a viable and acceptable thing.
But allowing it with a in-built mechanic is idiotism when it’s realized and not handled. It reduces overall engagement time with the game, progression rate is one of the most important aspects of the genre.

Yes, with 1/7th the rate of CoF. Hence while commonly a Wraithlord Arbor drops for a CoF player every 200 or so hours as a LP 2 item the baseline - without taking into consideration LP increase - for a MG player is every 1400 hours. That’s a chase-item level drop-rate.
When taking the upgrade for LP into the equation we reach beyond 2000 hours.

How long are we discussing? Didn’t get the notion that you can personally check it in 2 minutes? How many times could you’ve done it yourself since I gave the exact items even?

So don’t come along like this. I know the pressure of proof is on the initial poster but I’m not going around to wipe your ass for you. It’s not like a google search were the answer is somewhere bundled 5 layers deep in the search results.

‘Compete’ for the good stuff? What do you mean ‘compete’?
If waiting in front of the bazaar for a random listing popping up your example of ‘competition’ then you’ve simply lost your mind.
Get out there with that fucked up notion, that’s even beyond something that should be recognized in the first place.

It’s not like those pop up every 5 minutes to be gone right away, you see them every few days coming in at, best. What do you expect people to do, sit 72 hours in front of a screen no-living? No matter who, if a person does that and deem it ‘competition’ or a worthwhile endeavor of any kind they need some dire help.

First of all… premium tabs came with the API, which meant the time between it and coming into existence wasn’t even half a year if I remember right.

Secondly, if you try to compare standards from 10 years ago to today then you can also go back to saying ‘D2 is peak gaming today’ and people would laugh at you. It’s dated, it’s missing proper design-aspects which have become common knowledge and it’s a failing product if released nowadays without adjustments.

It’s comparing a mute movie to a modern cinematic movie and saying ‘but that was fine then, why not now?’

So no… the ‘hot mess’ does still look like shit, because by today’s standard… it ‘is’ shit. Simple as that. Don’t try to sell me your car from 1920 as a prime product of fitting standards.

Well, if I only do the first third of a task then I can also boast it to be quick, also you seemingly looked in cycle, where the lower price tag makes sense. Legacy it’s 600k, but the two other parts for a proper price check and hence pricing are important.

And we’re talking about a well used item which sells a lot, dropping decently well though too and hence having at least 7 pages of listings.
Now imagine doing a price-check with 20+ pages of items fitting, good luck. That’s simply crap unless you want to underprice, which makes it not worthwhile to list most items in the first place.

Ok, let’s go from the top instead again to make my point clear.

We have a mechanic intended to hinder double-dipping between factions, right?
That’s the intended function for it.

So, to not double-dip I’m never allowed to have access to both factions freely, right?

Ok… now I got 2 characters. One played up in coF, one played up in MG.
Where exactly is the difference between one character switching between both?

My singular character switching between both will only face downsides by design.
My dual characters will not only profit from their own faction but also from the cross-effects counted as double-dipping at any moment.
Find a untagged good item in CoF? My MG character immediately takes it.
Got enough gold to outfit my CoF character fully in MG? Just switch it over, no downside.
Find a full set of gear in CoF? Switch the MG character over, also no downside.

I can already circumvent it. I have no reason to switch with a single character anyway… so there is no meaning to the hindrances in the first place.

The only thing gear restriction does is wasting your time with a singular character. You wouldn’t gain any profit from switching from a ranked faction to a unranked one.
And if both are ranked then you have 2 characters anyway. So you only do it when it happens naturally through some way. You already double into it. It’s just tedium before that… which doesn’t happen before ranking up to at Least Rank 8 in MG anyway where it becomes nonsensical for CoF to MG changes anyway.

Which I was 100% sure to uphold itself during the beginning of 1.0.
Half-way through I realized that they’re equivalent since MG is badly set up and CoF only needed some adjustments to remove the missing aspects. Like boss-drops. Which we got in 1.1
CoF has the same standing as MG, actually… some items are easier obtainable in Legacy through CoF then MG.

Actually nah, not anymore, that’s a goner since juicing maps has so much variety because of the Atlas passive-tree and the scarab rework that you can literally target farm nigh everything.
And for really rare items you wait until the surprisingly common ‘Sightless Seer’ scarab which guarantees a T0 unique every single time.

SSF in PoE has become a thing which can be done without being a full-scale masochist.

Well, who says I need that though? The issue was that ‘trading feels mandatory’ is the aspect, right? So what upside do I have as a already established CoF character to switch over to MG? Sure… I can target buy… but the majority of higher items aren’t available there. Actually… CoF has clear-cut ways to target farm rare uniques in a way that a 2 LP rare unique is a possible goal. MG doesn’t have that reliably since the rare uniques with 2 LP are extremely rare and hence the demand outpaces supply, leading to ‘0’ listings.
On the contrary… with how the LP upgrades are handled I’ll likely get a rare unique through CoF which isn’t CoF tagged as the upgrade mechanics don’t tag, only the creation ones. So I could simply switch over to MG with full gear on a secondary character and ignore the gear limitations through those means. Doesn’t sound very balanced to me.

And by the time I have two characters, each in one Faction It mostly focuses on what happens first, depending entirely on playtime put into the respective Faction… will I first get a full set for another character through CoF targeted drops or will I first find some ‘lucky listings’ pop up in MG? That’s where I would then go in such a case.

Which leads down to the aspect that if you focus on a single Faction you’ll always have a superior experience then switching anyway, the fringe cases are small. So I don’t see the reasoning for the - severe - limitations for changing in the first place as I can circumvent them the second I have both types of character anyway. And with CoF I can already circumvent the progression from MG as well. It makes MG the inferior choice actually. It even hinders people switching from MG to CoF and not the other way around.

Ah, but it does have a downside: now it no longer has CoF drops. If there were no gear restrictions like you’re proposing, I wouldn’t need to switch to MG, I would stay CoF all the time and use full MG gear.

It still is. You get the base drops traders get and you don’t get the benefits. Because non-SSF can do the exact same target farming you can, probably better because they can just buy materials if they run out, and they can still simply buy whatever they need.

If you can have a single MG character that immediately buys the stuff you need, rather than rely on RNG (no matter how better than RNG is, it’s still RNG), it will feel mandatory. Because with CoF there is always the chance that you won’t find your item. You can farm a boss 50 times and those shackles still won’t drop, even with the rank bonus in 1.1.
So obviously players that don’t trade are immediately severely handicapped vs players that do. Because players that trade can get both the full MG gear and the full CoF bonuses. Thus, double dipping. Thus, you can’t wear the other faction gear to prevent this.

As we saw in 1.0, pretty much all items end up in trade. And the effort to collect them with MG is lower than with CoF.

Yes, but if you don’t place restrictions, you can simply focus on CoF, only occasionally going to your MG character to farm a little more favour and gold, because you’re already max rank in both.

Read my reply a few times and maybe it’ll click.

You can spend favor by buying stuff too, silly.

From just these opening words, it’s clear you didn’t read what I wrote. Go back and read it again.

Now we split that estimated 2k hours between 10000+ MG players and … voila! :ghost:

Glad we are on the same page.

Firstly, it’s called auction sniping.
Secondly, if anyone needs to get out, it’s you, because this whole MG talk is off-topic here.
Finally, sniping stuff isn’t the only way to compete with another player via in-game economy systems.

I’m sure that D2:Ressurected and the private servers running for years are all examples of a failing product. Oh wait… :smirk:

That’s easy. When some rando on the internet says his opinion, provides no proof for his arguments, then tells everyone else to go check it for him, surprise surprise, people are not going to jump as the rando whistles :wink:

Plus, I already told you that using Legacy post Cycle 1.0 as the basis for pricing is silly.

I think I’ll just stop wasting my time here.

Nah, that’s just a style change. I switch out CoF bonus drops for drops able to be sold in MG. One isn’t inherently superior or inferior to the other there.

How would you get the needed favor then? Or the gold since your CoF drops would outperform the cheap ones, leaving upgrades to be in the 5+ mil section? You can’t sell after all.
Ah! Take into consideration… non-scuffed implementation, hence scaling favor costs. It doesn’t work otherwise. It’s back to comparing a non-broken mechanic with another non-broken mechanic. Limiting because something is broken rather the fixing it is a bandaid, hence detrimental long-term.

Which ones? People have mostly gone over to not picking up gear, in SSF you simply pick up only gear aligned for specifically you and you actually use the mechanics which provide you upgrades rather then simply going for currency and bartering that.

You don’t run out with a triple Atlas rotation anymore, which you have unlocked when it becomes the point to use it. You can perma-sustain fully juiced content nowadays without fail.

Well, my starting character only needs mediocre gear anyway, I burst down stuff one way or the other, not even slower feeling wise.
By the time I reach the content which actively would hinder me to progress without much time investment we’re once again in million gold ranges per item.

Yeah, because you’re literally forced to put them in for favor usage and hence progression. Which… as mentioned… should be a goner.
It would make things a ton easier of you’re not reliant on enforced listings to progress realistically. Because every listed item is a potential sale, and every sale is a bit closer to a buy.

Ok, that there is the first actual well argument. Hence… Kudos. That makes sense. But… also only works for a secondary character, not the first. And does it matter for the second in a meaningful way? You’re already established after all by then so you can’t afford MG upgrades through pure CoF gold drops.

And… why the loss of prophecies and favor besides the usage limitation? That one I still don’t understand.

Which doesn’t help you progressing into the market though. Why would you buy random garbage that 98% of the time turns into anything else but a T7 exalted item? Especially at that price-tag.
Also a random listing without care can still lead to a sale, you’ve just likely undercut all the actual listings then… but gotten nonetheless closer to a buy which you won’t be able to afford from raw gold farming in any reasonable time.

Yes, and now we reduce it by demand and get as an end-result how likely they stay on the listing :slight_smile:

Auction sniping is usually done on larger scale auction sites with specific live-searches. We’re not in 2005 where people stared the whole day at ebay. And trust me… I know that all too well since my father made a lifetime worth of money from doing exactly that for years as a hobby outside of his job.
Also the rate of listings was despite far less usage then nowadays far higher then what the slim amount of possible upgrades one can have after 60 hours playtime, hence you didn’t have to wait for days.

True, but you can only compete over existing things. Hard to fight over wishes and dreams.

Nostalgia mostly, not because of it being peak gaming design and quality. Core players stay loyal to a product since they are emotionally connected to it, a new player has a miniscule chance of touching that unless brought in by one of those and hence forming a personal connection through that as well. It happens very little.

Diablo 2 is not - not anymore at least - for the genre what Supreme Commander is for RTS.

I provided proof during posts which went in a 5-10 minute ratio. The exact base + affix search. Sorry that I wasn’t precise enough to fulfill your desires of going the extra mile out of the blue for something I deemed so easy to check by simply having the client open that I didn’t even deem it worthwhile.
I simply expected nobody could be so lazy as to not use that minute to check out of simple curiosity. Guess I was wrong.

It was no different during mid-cycle in Legacy… and Legacy with the influx of items should’ve overall more listings rather then less. Seems paradoxical with more items there, potential people which might play in it in the future but go back to the cycle not setting up a few items to make some gold on the side while they’re away.