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Damage Penetration - Diminishing Returns(?)

Could someone check my math and confirm? From what I can tell, a few points into damage penetration (on skill tree) at 10% penetration each, is very much worth it but after investing a few it certainly has diminishing returns.

My conclusion, always invest up to around 20% but more than that and it starts to not be worth it. Early on every 1% pen is basically a 1.4% MORE damage multiplier (10% pen = 14% more damage), but at 20% it becomes 1.2% MORE each and at 40% it becomes 1:1.

Not sure how to enter excel data or fancy information so I will copy paste below showing numbers. Keep in mind %MORE is relative to the previous investment in penetration and not a running total.

Damage Pen Resist Total Dam %more
100 0 30 70 0
100 10 30 80 14.28571429
100 20 30 90 12.5
100 30 30 100 11.11111111
100 40 30 110 10
100 50 30 120 9.090909091
100 60 30 130 8.333333333
100 70 30 140 7.692307692
100 80 30 150 7.142857143
100 90 30 160 6.666666667
100 100 30 170 6.25
100 110 30 180 5.882352941
100 120 30 190 5.555555556
100 130 30 200 5.263157895
100 140 30 210 5

Would love to hear other opinions on this. Especially when to strike a balance between crit multi and ele pen (two huge damage sources) and how much to shoot for of each. I’m thinking intuitively, max crit multi but first try to hit that 20% penetration figure.

Total damage calc is as follows: Damage*(1-((Resist-Penetration)/100))
% more damage calc is as follows: (Total Damage - Previous Total Damage)/Previous Total Damage*100

Cheers!

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Your base assumption that the mobs have resistance is incorrect. Unless the mob says it has a resistance (some of the scorpions have resists) or if you take a resist modifier in the monolith.

If they do have resists then your maths is correct, otherwise the penetration is a straight more modifier.

First off, thank you for everything you do for the community. I’m pretty sure I posted on here a year ago and you chimed in to help out!

Here are the numbers with “0” resists. They are actually much worse overall:

Damage Pen Resist Total Dam %more
100 0 0 100 0
100 10 0 110 10
100 20 0 120 9.090909091
100 30 0 130 8.333333333
100 40 0 140 7.692307692
100 50 0 150 7.142857143
100 60 0 160 6.666666667
100 70 0 170 6.25
100 80 0 180 5.882352941
100 90 0 190 5.555555556
100 100 0 200 5.263157895
100 110 0 210 5
100 120 0 220 4.761904762
100 130 0 230 4.545454545
100 140 0 240 4.347826087

And here they are at capped resists (where they look amazing, but again biggest bang for buck is in the first 20%);

Damage Pen Resist Total Dam %more
100 0 75 25 0
100 10 75 35 40
100 20 75 45 28.57142857
100 30 75 55 22.22222222
100 40 75 65 18.18181818
100 50 75 75 15.38461538
100 60 75 85 13.33333333
100 70 75 95 11.76470588
100 80 75 105 10.52631579
100 90 75 115 9.523809524
100 100 75 125 8.695652174
100 110 75 135 8
100 120 75 145 7.407407407
100 130 75 155 6.896551724
100 140 75 165 6.451612903
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Yes, the first 20% is the target range based on either gear or passive/skill stats with anything more than that per 100 damage you lose at a ~240% rate based on the non-resist values.

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Because you’re comparing it to a lower base, but zero resists is a much more common occurrence. Personally, I’d do 9% (max t5 resist pen roll on an amulet), 30%, 40% (20 stacks of shred on a boss), 49% (max shred + pen).

Not quite sure what you mean there.

The 240% is the linear regression rate from optimal to the maximum obtainable amount of penetration.

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Just want to note that the base value is irrelevant when comparing against the change in %MORE damage. If I put a base damage value of 100,000 in then all of the %MORE values will still be the exact same. Example below for the Zero resist scenario:

Damage Pen Resist Total Dam %more
100000 0 0 100000 0
100000 10 0 110000 10
100000 20 0 120000 9.090909091
100000 30 0 130000 8.333333333
100000 40 0 140000 7.692307692
100000 50 0 150000 7.142857143
100000 60 0 160000 6.666666667
100000 70 0 170000 6.25
100000 80 0 180000 5.882352941
100000 90 0 190000 5.555555556
100000 100 0 200000 5.263157895
100000 110 0 210000 5
100000 120 0 220000 4.761904762
100000 130 0 230000 4.545454545
100000 140 0 240000 4.347826087

Also of note is that if you already have a form of shred, reaching 40% pen, then adding more on your amulet might not be the best investment. Going from 40 to 50 pen gives you between 7 and 15% MORE damage (depending on resists). Take that into consideration before choosing it over a nice Crit Multi for example.

2 Likes

I agree completely. When deciding what affixes to go for, if you’re going to min-max you need to be aware of how much of the modifier you already have & whether it depends on anything else (crit chance, chance to apply an ailment).

Crit multi is an interesting example since it requires you have a decent crit chance first, and even then, it’s incremental value is halved due to the base crit multi being 2 (assuming you don’t have any other sources of crit multi). So that 29% crit multi amulet modifier is at best 14% more damage assuming you have 100% crit chance. For a 70% increased damage prefix to have the same incremental value, you’d need to have less than 500% total increased damage, which isn’t too difficult to have late-game.

2 Likes

According to this information penetration and shred are kinda useless…

Nope.

Penetration/shred are “more” multipliers and worth getting if you can. But just like every other stat in the game (except the more damage multipliers in skill trees), theres diminishing returns.

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Everything which adds up together has a kind of DR when looking at total increases to damage. It is the same behaviour for increase and more multipliers:
Penetration adds up → DR
Crit Multi adds up → DR
Increased Damage adds up → DR

Even skillponts spent into skill specific more multiplier have a DR: Looking at Draining Assault from Warpath you get 15% more damage per point spent. First increases your damage by 15% but second point pushes you from 1.15 * damage to 1.3 * damage which is “only” an additional increase of 13%.

In general you should spread your stats among as many different additive sources as possible. While all types of increase (physical, damage over time, melee, …) go into the same “more”-pool.

Edit: Wasn’t meant to be a reply to LLama8 but a general comment. Just still not used to this forum.

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You clicked on reply to post (the reply button on the bottom right of the post), rather than reply to thread (the reply button further down next to bookmark/flag):
Imgur

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What Oeller said. Stacking any additive damage is going to show diminishing percent increases. The amount of actual damage you’re getting is the same from 10% pen to 20% as it is from 0% to 10%, but because you’re starting at a higher baseline of damage (since you already have 10% pen), the % increase is just smaller.

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