hello! make please crosswobs weapon’s type, it’l be varied and very interesting
Crossbows do indeed sound like an interesting weapon type. The bolts are heavier and would hit harder (I think they were better at piercing armour too? Might need a fact check), so might be interesting to have a ranged weapon with hit damage and armour pen implicits.
They also require less training to use, so perhaps if these come into the game we could also get Marksman skills that scale off something other than Dex?
ngl the more I think about this, the more excited I get.
Not necessarily, the Xbows would require less training & less physical strength to draw (assuming you’re using a windlass), have a shorter range, be much slower to draw/fire. That said, weapons in games need “balance” as much as they do being “true to life” (or the expectation of the player).
1 Like
You have to ask yourself what for? Cosmetic sure. You can go down the medieval rabbit hole about their use, repair, and functionality if you like but to what end? How would they function here differently then a bow? Perhaps Diablo 2 did it “best” but ultimately the bow vs crossbow in and of itself did not matter at all.
For reference Skallagrim has some fantastic videos on the subject, I normally would say check out Shadiversity, however Skallagrim has more videos on this particular topic.
2 Likes
I do agree with you, but remember that even the “just” for cosmetic use can play a very big role in a (A)RPG!
Besides that, some people want changes to the Wound Maker passive of Marksman. If Marksman wouldn’t be able to get 100% so easily, then the introduction of crossbows could make a lot of sense.
You could say Bows = Crit (most of them already have +crit implicits) while Crossbows = Pierce/Penetration (pierce as in pierce through enemies, penetration as in physical penetration).
On the other hand you could give crossbows to Sentinel so we can cosplay as those Rayeh dudes or the mercenaries with crossbows. 
1 Like
Diablo 2 did something similar, and you still used the same small handful of weapons because no one used the blizzard cannon because it was a crossbow, just like how no one used the Windforce because it was a bow.
Sure absolutely, however it is not where I personally think development needs to be directed at this point in the game. When they are ready to roll out new bows sure swap it up and make a few visually look like crossbows. You could even go as far to make the big “defensive” bow unique have built in shields something like Leagues immortal shieldbow.
I’m not sure I understand what you are saying.
Do you mean nobody used Buriza or Windforce?
Or are you saying people didn’t care if it was a Crossbow or a Bow and only used them because they are strong items?
Lots of games have multiple types of ranged weapons with no functional difference. Diablo 2 had perhaps the most functional difference between bows and crossbows. What I am saying is despite that difference no one cared. They were functionally interchangeable. You used a good weapon because it had good properties, the base item made no difference. When you consider that
If you need to rework a skill to help justify the functionality of a base weapon type I mean it just sounds like 2 steps forward and 2 steps back to me, more so when debating how powerful a skill is seems beyond the scope of crossbows vs bows.
Even in D2 the difference was pretty much nonexistent.
If I remember correctly there was no skill or runeword that worked with only one of them and items didn’t have implicits.
I wouldn’t say no one cared as there were cool looking crossbows (even tho they only had a unique 2D portrait) or they had an interesting unique feature.
But yeah, when you’re trying to minmax you never care about the look of an item so that applies to all items and not just bows/crossbows.
And if no one cares then why have different models at all? Or even different items? 
It’s a passive but I understand what you are saying.
The thing is that changing this passive could actually make the addition of crossbows valid in terms of being mechanically different to bows.
Also, if crossbows existed they might have their own skills which are not usable with bows, but of course the chicken can’t exist before the egg (or the other way round?).
Yes however there were differences, the fact that you agree that the difference was nonexistent functionally proves my point. The further and further you go down the X only works on this weapon type, and you proliferate that across the weapon types the more you get the feeling that you are playing the weapon and not the character. Not to mention the balancing nightmare that frankly is a bit much given, well given, the balance we already have/need in other places.
To quote Bianca Del Rio “Really queen”
Did it seem like I didn’t want to agree with the fact that there was no difference between bows and crossbows in D2? Or at least none that really made them feel different? Because if it did then I didn’t express myself well enough. Gameplaywise there was no difference (yeah one uses arrows and the other one bolts but who cares about that).
But you were still holding a Crossbow or a Bow. For some people that is enough to use a certain weapon type. Some people want to use that cool looking sword instead of the stronger axe, just because they think the sword looks cooler. Of course that only works if the weapon isn’t complete gutter trash, but I think you get my point. Some people care as much about aesthetics as they do about “power”. 
I’m not sure if you are pro skills being useable with only certain weapon types or contra. Because you said:
English isn’t my first language so sometimes I struggle to understand some things…
To quote Dio Brando “How many breads have you eaten in your life?”
There is a functional difference beyond the ammo type. The fact that we are this deep into the discussion and you continue to assert that there is no difference only proves my point. The difference is there but it does not matter. Much like how if it was propagated here there would be no difference.
Sounds like a case for cosmetic skins to me.
Actually i left it vague on purpose. I simply wanted to point out that in a lot of games the more you lean into the weapon only abilities the more it feels like you are playing the weapon and not the character. I cant recall the champion in question but League of Legends Developers sited the same concerns.
Same. No Shade all T.
“Good grief, don’t underestimate me just because I’m a kid.” – Jotaro Kujo
What is the functional difference between Bows and Crossbows in D2?
I never tried to disprove your point.
If it felt like I did then it was my fault for not making that clear.
What I do however think is that it would be good if there was a difference.
Not only in aesthetics but in gameplay. That’s how I feel.
I can understand the points that if they differ in the skills/passives you can use with either weapon type it might feel like your playing the weapon instead of the character, but at that point the discussion turns into a very subjective and philisopical one.
Not that that’s a bad thing but at that point peoples personal taste and all of that stuff make it pretty much impossible to please everyone.
If there is no objective (gameplay) difference between two weapon classes, you can say that they are redundant (again, gameplay wise) and I would agree (at least mostly agree).
But at that point I’d say that making them play and feel different would make more sense.
And at this point we are starting to go in circles again:
No (gameplay) difference = Why do they exist? They are functionally the same!
Gameplay difference = Why is there a difference? I want to play the character, not the weapon!
I agree but even then you will still have people that say “This is just a crossbow skin for my bow! I want a REAL crossbow! They are sooooo different than bows, why why why???”
And honestly, I would totally understand those people. It’s not like you’re switching from one sword to another sword but more like from a sword to an axe or something. Just one of the many things game developers have to deal with. You can never make everybody happy! Usually both sides have valid arguments.
Agreed, but again, I don’t feel like that’s a thing that can be answered objectively.
Some people like that, some don’t.
All we as players can do is voice our opinions and it’s up to the devs to decide what to do in the end.
I personally think the best solution is if there are skills that can be used with multiple weapon types and some that are weapon type exclusive.
Especially if you have many different weapon types.
For example: As soon as you introduce Javelins as a weapon type (or throwing spears, throwing axes, throwing knives, etc.) I would bet that most people want to be able to use throwing skills with them. They might also want to still be able to use melee skills with those weapons. They probably don’t want to be able to use throwing skills with all weapon types tho.
“They will catch us in no time if we steal a single car. But, if we steal a hundred cars, then they might have a harder time figuring out which one we’re on.” - Giorno Giovanna
1 Like
Looking just at the base weapon types bow vs crossbow. The bow fired faster for less damage and the crossbow fired slower for more damage. This mattered to some extent due to how D2 damage formulas were used with weapon type skills. An overly simplistic analogy would be crossbows for bossing and bows for clear. This all went out the window however due to effects and unique. The thrust of my position, its not the weapon type that matters but what it functionally does.
Yes, exactly. This is a growing concern with PoE2 where you have specific skills locked to the weapons. It is just another way of distilling the gameplay into the weapon type has the best skills locked to it is going to become the most used.
Going to date myself here but this is just the katana meme. No bro like Katanas can cut through tanks. Because if you do your history research bows and crossbows are not that different. However that small difference did matter in ONE battle. Where the English relied on crossbows and the french relied on longbows, why did it matter? The rain. The rain caused the English to loose the fight and have to pivot their entire military goals and start to promote use of the bow over pressing peasants into crossbow use. Like I said above there are plenty of videos on the subject showing real demonstrations. A bit off topic but it feeds into the katanas can cut through tanks.meme
So to sum it up we got:
- I want my meme bow
- I want a skin
The simple solution is to add in the next batch of bows as crossbows and functionally change nothing. Once the skin shop opens up, that is where you let your artists stretch their legs. This also saves balancing energy for other areas that are in more need then trying to separate the two weapon types and develop skills to go with it.
“Death by sword. Death by broken bones. Death by crushing. There’s not much difference, right?” – Ainz Ooal Gown
1 Like
I can understand that concern, but I think it is flawed to think this way.
Firstly because I think that having some (not all) skills limited to one specific weapon type makes the weapons more interesting. It gives them a theme or “character” instead of just being a statstick with a different skin. This is of course more on the subjective side of things.
Secondly, and this is very much an objective view (I’m hesitant to call it a fact, but one could also call it that), you said:
which can be said even if there was only one weapon type. This argument is not linked with the amount of different weapon types at all. Why? Because people will simply use the best weapon base for any skill. If we take PoE as an example, let’s say (theoretically) the Vaal Axe is the highest DPS two-handed weapon. It has the same range (if not more) than all the other 2-handers, attack speed is in the top 5, damage is #1 and it even has the best implicit.
Why would I ever want to use any other weapon base for any skill that benefits from raw weapon damage? You see what I’m trying to say? If the gameplay is not distilled into the best weapon type it is distilled into the best weapon base. Or the best spell. It’s the main problem every game faces.
That’s why, even if some people say it feels forced, I think that making skills usuable by only certain weapon types (in some cases exclusively to one weapon type) is a good thing. To be clear, I really HATE forced diversity (in this case I don’t feel like it is forced diversity but rather giving credit to the differences of weapon types), but if you assume people will always minmax, then this problem can’t be solved otherwise.
If every melee skill can be used with any weapon, people will (by that logic) always use the best base. So why even have other bases or even weapon types? What justifies their existence?
I have to admit, I’m still not sure what side of this topic you’re standing on… 
I feel like you’re against different weapon types (at least to some extend).
Or maybe you just don’t like making (some) skills usable only with certain weapons?
To me the issue is simple: If you make every skill usable with every weapon (or lets at least say melee/ranged/caster with the associated skills), you will end up with 100 melee/ranged/caster weapons which are essentially just stat sticks and 99 of them will never be used because one of them is objectively the best one. Why would I ever use this sword if that axe is better in every way and I can use the same skills with both of them?
I mean you could make skills/passives themselves interact differently with different weapons (like some give attack speed for swords, leech for axes, etc.) but that would be the same turd in a different tuxedo…
“Hate is a place, where a man who can’t stand sadness goes.” – Godo
That is by design. I find it provokes more thought. I am against making skills limited by weapon type, as well as passives. However I am also for it, IF it is done comprehensively. Having said that, it would require an overhaul and I don’t think that is the direction the devs want to go in, and currently its not a priority in my view.
As for weapon types without that overhaul any functional difference is just a rabbit hole leading to a development pit. Yes its a bit circular but you cant really have any meaningful difference in “same family” weapon types without some functionality difference. Clearly you cant compare a sword to a bow. Arrow go Whoosh, Bolt go Whoosh so whats the difference?
Happy to continue but it feels like nothing new is getting added to the conversation and we are going round and round with what amount to: I want my crossbow because, and no a skin wont satisfy me, it has to be different.
Edit: seems to me like changing the next batch of bows into crossbows with a new implicit is the way to go as I have said before. --Repeated for clarity as I am not against implicits.
1 Like
I do not see the point of this, all they would be is bows with lower attack speed and higher base damage. There isn’t any inherent bonuses that can be put on crossbows that do not fit on bows. Also lots of extra animations needed for it to work.
2 Likes
Good work, Doom. Really added to this.
Maybe a bit of a meme, but technically you could dual-wield crossbows. That’d be funny to see.
But that’s already the case in PoE, there are some skills that require a specific weapon. Are they going further down this rabbit hole in PoE2?
Which one was that? 'Cause we kicked the #### out of the French in Agincourt/Crecy back in the 1400s.