Crafting & Fracturing really rare items is a very negative experience and could be solved differently

[jehzir]

@rhah

The issue with PoE is that they keep nerfing the deterministic stuff. Their obsession with rng is what’s ruining it.

Excessive RNG is along the same lines as gambling, which many GGG systems are. Button pushing gambling systems meant for the high-rollers to succeed with.

@rhah

It really felt like i would eventually be able to make the exact items that i wanted, but it turned out to be a major let down.

I can agree with this to a limit. I do not think you should be able to craft exactly what we want above T20. That ruins the wow factor of finding something really valuable. I think the deterministic values should be capped at the T16-20 range with no ability to go above T20 in a totally deterministic way. There has to be a reason to go for loot after all.

[Llama8]

@jehzir

@rhah

It really felt like i would eventually be able to make the exact items that i wanted, but it turned out to be a major let down.

I can agree with this to a limit. I do not think you should be able to craft exactly what we want above T20. That ruins the wow factor of finding something really valuable. I think the deterministic values should be capped at the T16-20 range with no ability to go above T20 in a totally deterministic way. There has to be a reason to go for loot after all.

It kinda is. To go above t20 you need the right base to drop with all 4 affixes being desirable and at least one of them being t6/7. Then you have to not fracture it while you craft the other affixes to t5 which may be very challenging depending on what they start out as.

[jehzir]

This is e

@Llama8

It kinda is. To go above t20 you need the right base to drop with all 4 affixes being desirable and at least one of them being t6/7.

That is what I am meaning by the wow factor, hey it actually dropped all 4 stats, without having to remove, refine or reshape the low rolled values. It can be challenging but again to those who find many of the bases they are looking for can out probability the risk. T21+ should be natural drop, not being able to manipulate the 2-3 crafts to T5 with 1 or 2 solid T6/7

[Llama8]

@jehzir

T21+ should be natural drop, not being able to manipulate the 2-3 crafts to T5 with 1 or 2 solid T6/7

But then there wouldn’t be any crafting involved on it, which from the sounds of it you don’t want. You could have natural t21 items drop but they’d be pretty rare.

[jehzir]

I think there is a misunderstanding. What I am meaning I do not think it should be a regular expectation to take a single stat T6 drop and bring it up to T21 status. I know its difficult, but I have also done it before the most recent fixes. There becomes a fine line between making exactly what we want with crafting and the hunt for something build altering in the wild (chase items).

[Llama8]

Yeha, I get where you’re coming from & I believe that exalteds do currently fit into EHG’s bucket of chase items (along with idols with 2x useful modifiers), but there’s already a lot of RNG in terms of getting the right t6/7 modifier on the right base with at least 2 ideally 3 modifiers that work for your build that you can then re-jig your gear around to make work.

IMO, then adding a “cannot be crafted” on top of them would be too much. Unless they always dropped with the rest of the affixes as t5 but then they’d just be a different flavour of unique items (set stats, could be awesome, more likely to be garbage for your build).

[jehzir]

@Llama8

Unless they always dropped with the rest of the affixes as t5 but then they’d just be a different flavour of unique items (set stats, could be awesome, more likely to be garbage for your build).

This last part could be what they are intending with legendary gear.

[Llama8]

Yeah, who knows.

[Pri]

I 100% agree with this post. The end game is annoying in it’s current state because of exalted crafting. My last 5 exalted items (2 of them were double exalted) fractured on the FIRST CRAFT.

This needs to be fixed, unsure what in the coding makes end game items fracture 4-5x more than items pre-level 90 but that needs to be looked at.

I absolutely hate how you get excited when an item drops and the second you start crafting it it breaks. The design currently sucks in my opinion.

If you give a dog a treat and slap it on the nose every time after, eventually the dog stops coming for the treat.

[washa3]

@Pri

This needs to be fixed, unsure what in the coding makes end game items fracture 4-5x more than items pre-level 90 but that needs to be looked at.

Absolutely nothing. Just RNG.

Crafting feels kinda bugged

I appreciate that you are giving feedback on the way it feels. That’s valuable feedback. It isn’t bugged but I totally hear you that it feels that way. This is something that we are working to remedy and have a prototype that we have been testing but it isn’t quite right. So, finding that 80% of items fracture by 60% success rate actually makes a lot of sense if you do the math behind it. Let’s say an item starts at 95% success rate and goes down by 5% each time you craft. I know that’s not qu…

Craft Fake % succes

This. Mike has also talked on several occasions about how we’re psychologically inclined to weigh the failures more heavily than the successes, which gives the impression that the percentages are off when they’re actually just fine. I know there have been times when I was like “this is busted” but then I get a good run, and just have to remember that it all evens out in the end.

Conclusion after a long break

Keep up the good work, but please don’t change the crafting too much, or just don’t implement % to apply random affix… Blockquote

[jehzir]

Yea Washa3, there are good discussions in those threads. With as many times have we rolled a critical success and not even blink an eye, but instantly complain about the failure.

[EHG_Mike]

Hi everyone,
I was summoned by the linking of a comment of mine.

I have taken a few to read the suggestions in here and as always with threads like this, there are some really good ones. We want to keep the core of what makes our crafting system unique and engaging while having more excitement. Right now the two main outcomes are relief and anger.

About a month back, I went on a pretty long explanation of our goals for a crafting system rework that I think mirror a lot of your sentiments. It’s about 7 mins long I think and this link should start at the right timestamp.

Developer Stream 07.16.21 | Last Epoch

[Heavy]

Even after playing LE for 2 years, I am still in the camp of actually really liking the crafting system.

It’s just that i shifted my expectations a bit and wait until I am “excited”, to after my crafts succeed, instead of when dropping the item.

I do understand what many people complain about, but for me personally what I want would be higher end crafting mats, like new runes and glyphs, that have very powerful affects, where you really need to consider, when and on what Item you want to use them.

I already suggested a bunch in the forum and I think some or all of them should also come with a gold cost, since now with the removal of unique/set gambling (I like that change a lot btw) we don’t have any real gold sinks anymore.

[mosey]

I think its unfortunate that it seems like they dont want people to be able to get " perfect " items. You can beat the game with t15- t16 items and even push 300 - 500+ corruptions with t15 - t16 items so why do they make it insanely improbable for you to get very good items.

For you to drop an item thats the right base type you are looking for that also rolled 2 tier 7 mods on it both mods being something you want and this item has a high rolled implicit is already insanely improbable. Now lets say you have played this character for over 6 months you absolutely love it very very few items can even be upgrades. For you to take this amazing item that just dropped and rune of shaping it 1 - x times to almost perfect then either take the bad suffixes off or upgrade them to tier 5 and then rune of refinement those stats to near perfect… its just not going to happen. And this is just for ONE slot.

There needs to be an extremely rare glyph… like farming 12 hours a day for 7 days you would be lucky to find 3 of them… and this item lets you guarantee the next craft and NOT add any instability. An item like this would not effect the late game at all because you are already able to push very far into the end game with 5 - 6 tiers worse on your gear but it will give people the incentive to want to play their character after its almost perfect.

I also think an item like this could be the main trading currency when trading goes live. Make it normal for someone to want to make a character as close to perfect as they can. As it is now if there is a 3 month season there is absolutely no way someone is going to have t24 + ( near perfect ) items in every slot which should be the power fantasy people chase when playing aRPG’s. Even with an item like this in the game the chances of getting t24+ items is extremely rare but atleast its possible

[Heavy]

In your first paragraph you are talking about T15-T16 Items and then all of the sudden you are talking about multiple exalted affix items.

That is going from 80% to like 120% Items.

I can’t follow that thoughtprocess to be honest.

T20 Items should be items you aspire, which I think LE currently does really well, since it’s very achieveable but does need some time investment.

Everything beyond that so a T21 or T22 with one T6 or T7 affix is something that is really a longterms goal and together with perfect Idols the “chase items” currently.

Speaking of T24+ Items is not extremely rare, that is just unrealistic, even with trading.

I personally hope that Exlated Items are not even tradeable, but that’s just me.

[mosey]

I was saying that the game can be pushed far into end game with fairly common items t15’s and the chance of getting t24 items in every slot even after 6 months of playing the same character ( a typical league is 3 months long ) is not only improbable but impossible. You can have a t24 item but for it to be rolled well with the correct stats is just not going to happen.

Saying you dont think exalted items… one of the very few chase items in the game should not be tradable is just silly. There is solo self found for a reason and it seems like you would gravitate more towards that when trading goes live.

T20 items do not take time to get… less than a week and you have every slot t20 easily. At the very least t18-19 because suffixes on items are really lacking and the difference between a few percent chance of applying frailty on hit means absolutely nothing when frailty only stacks to 3 anyway. Its the jump from t18-20 to t24 that is unreasonably difficult… i do think it should be a chase a huge grind to even expect t24’s but i dont see it happening for almost every slot in a 3 month season when 2 t7 mods already make the item drop with like 17 instability minimum.

[Heavy]

@mosey

T20 items do not take time to get… less than a week and you have every slot t20 easily.

Hm, I am not sure if we play the same game, I don’t even have T20 Items in most of my slots after literally hundred of hours playtime on my main characters.

@mosey

At the very least t18-19 because suffixes on items are really lacking and the difference between a few percent chance of applying frailty on hit means absolutely nothing when frailty only stacks to 3 anyway.

That is a very specific example only available on a few item slots, but I see where you are coming from.

Having a T16-T18 Item with priority on 2 or 3 stats is decently easy, but getting the last affix to T5 is not that important, I agree, it’s only for min-maxing.

Fraility is a really specific example though, most other suffixes are really worth taking that extra Tier to T4 or T5, especially because higher tiers are exponentially better than lower tiers.
Most Affixes don’t scale lineraly.

@mosey

i do think it should be a chase a huge grind to even expect t24’s but i dont see it happening for almost every slot in a 3 month season

Maybe we do have very different expectations and that’s fine, but I think it’s ok to not plan around getting any usefull exalted Item and in case you do get one, that’s just a nice unexpected bonus on top.

@mosey

when 2 t7 mods already make the item drop with like 17 instability minimum.

This is not true, T6 and T7 affixes are treated as T5 affixes for the base instability on an Item, so they are no different than magic and rare items and it heavily depends on all the other affixes on the Item.

With no other mods a Item dropping with 2xT7 and no other affixes will have ~10 instability, depending on the other affixes it can definitely be 17 or higher, but then the other affixes also need to be decently high.

The calculation for base instability is just super complex and will totally de-rail this thread.

@mosey

Saying you dont think exalted items… one of the very few chase items in the game should not be tradable is just silly. There is solo self found for a reason and it seems like you would gravitate more towards that when trading goes live.

I do love playing solo, epsecially now with the new target farming in MoF, however this does not change my view, that trading is bad for aRPG’s in most cases, it does hurt more than it really helps from my PoV.

I am really interested how trading will exactly work, since I think EHG actually has some cool stuff regarding trading, to not make it “search for your perfect item and click to buy”, which is absolutely against everything a loot-driven game should stand for IMO

But yeah this whole discussion will also de-rail the thread, but there are at least 100 different threads about trading floating around here in the forum

[DigitalHype]

I know this isn’t trendy with ARPGs. But, why not add some small level of progression to the crafting system for your character. I do not suggest complexity here. Nor the ability to become immune to failure. Just some slight chance improvement based on prior crafting successes. Perhaps a modest reduction in chance to fracture after a certain number of critical success.

When it comes to combat you progress in several ways. Both in terms of the game design (gear, passives, skills, blessing) and skill (map layouts, boss mechanics, build intricacies, etc.).

When it comes to crafting there is almost nothing you can due to improve once you understand the instability/fracture system.

[Vekongnitoo]

Yes this one i agree with 100percent