Cosmetic handling and monetization concerns

Feedback and Suggestions
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Salutations, travelers. Have the devs have ever posted something or discussed how they’re going to handle purchased cosmetics? If not, is it something that’s been discussed internally at all? I’m something of a PoE “vet” and I can clearly see some monetary parallels between PoE and Last Epoch that worry me. As it stands I think the shop is fine, I don’t mind that it’s kinda like PoE but I think it should be more unique than it is. Their currency is exactly the same value as PoE’s currency and their cosmetics are just as expensive as well. This is a problem.

I don’t mind $20, $30, $40 supporter packs at all–I prefer them, but Last Epoch’s packs don’t upgrade, don’t have much in them, don’t give you the value of your purchase in LE’s currency (i.e. $20 pack should give you 200 points), and their individual cosmetics in the shop are overpriced. LE isn’t PoE so I have no idea why they would blatantly rip PoE’s monetization formula and apply it to LE.

Here’s the thing, there aren’t that many people that buy cosmetics on PoE and there aren’t many that want to because it would literally cost $150+ to get a decent looking armor set and skill gem MTX. Are you kidding me? More people would buy MTX if they didn’t cost as much as their car payment so what is there to lose? The devs stand to gain a happier community for sure. Maybe they don’t want people to buy MTX. Why are they charging $5 for a portal skin? Why are they charging $20 for a tiger pet? I WANT to buy cosmetics and support the devs but I won’t if it remains daylight robbery.

The only slightly redeeming quality of LE’s cosmetics is the fact that you can equip them on multiple characters. It’s so refreshing to properly own cosmetics and be able to reapply them to other characters without having to click “reclaim” and worry about the characters that I just stripped naked, and then reapply said MTX back to the character I just took it off of whenever I want to play that character. This is my concern and it’s the reason I felt the need to make this post.

If LE is going to commit to scalping their MTX and follow the PoE monetization formula to a “T”, does that also mean they intend to make MTX character exclusive at some point (like PoE) or will we always be able to equip purchased cosmetics on all characters at any given time without reclaiming them from another character? If I buy a weapon skin will I need to buy a second copy of that skin to equip on a dual wielding character? I don’t want to invest any money until I find out for sure what LE’s plan is and I would encourage others to do the same.

I think this game is cool and it has earned its place as one of my favorites so I don’t want it to copy any other games mistakes. I want LE to be LE–not Great Value PoE with equally expensive and unfair cosmetics.

Post script: I realize I’ve strayed from a big part of my concern in the initial few hours of this discussion. Yes the prices are alarming, but I want to emphasize that I’d also like to hear from you about being able to equip cosmetics on one character at a time like PoE. I’m not attacking anyone, I like the game and the devs, I’d just like to challenge their reasoning and what seems to be the path they’re taking as far as MTX are concerned. Of course more civil, less sarcastic discourse is encouraged. I understand that in challenging the mainstream ideas there will be some intellectual friction, but we’re all LE enjoyers so lets try to treat each other like it.

Disclaimer: I can’t interact as much as I’d like because I’m new to the forums. :frowning:

Edit: paragraph spacing

Edit: forgot to add “Edit: paragraph spacing” in my first edit lol.

Edit: Added post script, please read all necessary info

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So they’re scalping PoE’s mtx strategy by… gasp making 10 points = 1 dollar?

Maybe they should make $1 be 5 points, most things cost 7 points, and the next pack is a $5 pack that give 25 + 2 points. That’ll make it much better…

Honestly it’s fine.

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So couple of points here

Regarding Supporter Packs. The devs itentionally did it different comapred to other simialr games with the first wave of supporter packs. They received a lot of feedback about it and there is a high chances they might do it different with the next wave (next wave of supporter packs will not come before 1.2 though).

Regarding pricing and having good looking MTX I would say the biggest differences compared to PoE is: LE equipment looks very good even without any MTX. At the end fo the day, it is a optional cosmetic purchase, either you like it and want to support it or you don’t.

Generally your kind of feedback is very constructive and helpful I think and the whole MTX shop is still in its infancy. 1.0 will bring a couple more mtx categories and I am sure that EHG will listen to the community if there are things a large portion of the community dislike.

Again not to devalue your feedback, but at the end of the day all of this is optional and if you don’t think the prices are fair that is on you.
I even agree that I think more mtx would be purchased overall if the individual prices would be lower. But for example a portal skin for 5$ is not that bad IMO. Pets are 10$ though not 20$ Pets not only have 3D models but also animations, so these are a lot more work than a armorpiece I would imagine.

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Oh yeha I forgot to talk about that point in my first reply as well.

I agree and this is somethign they actually changed after their first iteration of the MTX shop.

They changed the $ to Epoch Point ratio to be less convuluded and they reduced prices on a lot of things. It used to be more convoluded

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How is what we have different to PoE (honest question, I’m not sure I can see a difference, other than that the more expensive packs don’t give you the less expensive pack stuffs as well)?

IMO, it depends on the ratio of IRL currency to points & points to cosmetics. IE, how much do the cosmetics cost in IRL currency? Given the box price, the MTX shouldn’t as a matter of principle cost the same, or even similar to, PoE’s.

As you say, the actual points per £/$/€ is irrelevant 'cause they can increase the cost per point & reduce the point cost of the MTX & achieve the same £/$/€ cost of the MTX.

IMO, using 10 points = $1 is sensible as then the mental arithmetic to work out how much the MTX cost is reduced, as long as 10 points doesn’t also cost £1/€1 then all us dirty foreigners are getting fucked over 'cause we don’t use freedom-currency.

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I get that the shop is an extremely early form which is why I wanted to post this and see what others/the devs thought or if someone could shed some light on the potential future. I’m excited to see the game grow but the path it’s on is making me worry a little. I just don’t see the value from the devs perspective of having expensive MTX (or character exclusive cosmetics like PoE). It’s objectively not a good idea and it doesn’t feel good to buy either. They’d make less money per purchase, but they’d sell far more of each MTX.

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You seem a bit upset with my view but I’m looking out for myself, the players and the devs. As far as I’m aware (and I’m not exactly bad at economics like a lot of others) my proposition isn’t only reasonable–it’s optimal. Not perfect, but an optimal place to start. You also misunderstand the way “scalp” is used. Scalping isn’t stealing ideas, scalping is buying something and reselling it for more. The point I made in my OP is that PoE sells their MTX for far more than their worth, which is an objective fact. There are chest pieces in PoE that sell for more than Elden Ring. I don’t want to see that in LE because it’s not only ugly, but it’s objectively overpriced. I tried to be clear in my post and differentiate between the objective reality of their pricing and my opinions about it. I’m not raging about their prices, I am upset that I probably wont be buying any, and they do charge much more than the skins cost to make.

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If you’re not bad at economics then you must know that market value is dictated by what buyers perceive that value to be. PoE has expensive MTX because there are people that buy them anyway. I’m sure that if no one buys some MTX, they would lower it’s price eventually.

Regarding LE, the prices have already been adjusted in the past, likewise will be adjusted again in the future. Just like as I said, if prices are too high and no one buys them they will probably get lowered, but if people still buy them they’ll stay that way. That’s basic economics.

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You’re almost right. There are nuances to economics like Apple/Samsung selling their products at a premium because they’re wildly successful companies. Physical products value will shift relative to supply/demand and the cost of production which is the actual dictator of market value. There is a formula you can use to plug all these numbers in, it’s actually quite simple.

This brings me to my point about MTX being overpriced. These products are not limited by supply because they’re digital cosmetics, which means the only other factor affecting their price is cost of production. If EHG raised or lowered the prices of their cosmetics they would see a virtually linear shift in the number of buyers relative to the price. (i.e. cheaper products will sell more, expensive products will sell less which typically results in a linear and negative relationship between price and number of products sold).

EHG can sell unlimited MTX because they’re digital so these prices can be altered to be any number under the sun for no reason. If they can sell an entire game for $35 why is it necessary to sell a tiger pet for $20, for example? People that don’t actually think about this kind of stuff will say “it’s your choice, you don’t need to buy it, buyer’s perception of value,” etc., but these MTX have objective value that I’m trying to expose.

Most “gamers” live in a bubble and don’t want to think about it. It hardly costs anything to make these cosmetics but they’re being sold for exorbitant prices–this is the objective reality that I’m talking about and my motivation for talking about it is the fact that I’d like to buy some MTX for a fair price because I love the game and I want other people to be able to do the same. I’m talking about an “everyone wins” proposition so it’s unclear to me where the disagreement is.

Did you enjoy paying $140 (or whatever currency you used) for your MTX? Think about the contents of those packs. Do you feel as though you got your money’s worth? It’s OK if you do feel that way–I know some people will, but do you also think that’s what the majority of people think? Or do you think we kind of deliberate whether or not the MTX are worth it to us given the price or maybe we should wait until our next paycheck or maybe next league because we need new tires for the car? If small digital goods affect your bank account that much, that’s a pretty simple indicator that something is a bit expensive.

I’ve talked to so many people about this before and they usually say “the prices are fine but I won’t buy any”, which indicates the prices are not fine. A price isn’t good just because a couple hundred people bought it. Buyers shouldn’t be a minority in a game they like and support. Buyers might not buy everything but a majority of players should have at least a supporter pack or two that they like. Someone that buys something will always go back at some point. If the majority of players agree that the prices are bad, they won’t even bother checking the shop–it just becomes another advertisement they learn to ignore. (Which could also mean they fall into the same problems as Fortnite or League of Legends; rotating player base, terrible player retention, power creep from adding new OP mechanics, “I miss the old >insert game title here<”, and the sole focus of the devs would be to change the game drastically in order to maintain a steady flow of new players that would actually buy something from the shop.)

Like I said, I like this game and I want it to grow into a proper heavyweight that can compete with the likes of PoE and part of me thinks it will. I just want to do my part to see that it gets there and I’m proud to be here trying to help the next big ARPG grow. There are just small issues that can easily develop into big ugly ones if they’re not ironed out early on and we can learn from the older ARPGs.

Edit: Address error

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While I don’t disagree with your post, do you have anything to back that up? Are you comparing the cost to how much it would make if it sold X units? 'Cause I’d be shocked if it cost “hardly anything”. Plus that’s a very fluffy term & would be different in different countries (given EHG are based all over the globe).

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The brand is also important in that. Which is why people will pay a higher price for Nike shoes but won’t pay the same price for another pair that is the exact same but without the Nike logo. So consumer perception is also important in the price. Apple gets away with it because enough people give them enough value for the prices they charge, even though those prices are obviously way higher than supply/demand/production cost.

They do have an objective value. It’s the time required to make them and how much you’re paying the person or persons that do them.

That’s just objectively not true. Just contact any designer to make you a simple logo and see how much they charge you. And MTX have dynamic animations, so they’re harder to make.

I bought all 4 supporter packs and, as I’ve said before regarding this, I would have bought them anyway even if they gave me absolutely nothing. The reason I bought them is the same reason I bought so many supporter packs in PoE: just to support the game. That I get something out of it is just a bonus.

The majority of people won’t buy packs or MTX. Nor do they do that in PoE. Nor are they supposed to. Packs and MTX are just an extra income source to keep the live service going and it doesn’t require every player to buy them. Just that enough players do.

Even if you were to sell MTX for 1$ each, most players still wouldn’t buy them.

Fortnite and LOL’s problems have nothing to do with their shop and all about the direction they decided their game and gameplay (emphasis on the gameplay) should have.

Should MTX be cheaper? Maybe. It’s hard to know the objective cost of them without knowing EHG’s structure and salaries. I know that the price for something like this actually falls down when you have a bigger team, so I expect that the cost for making an MTX is higher for EHG than it is for GGG.
I don’t agree that they should be cheaper than PoE’s because EHG has a box price. The cost of maintaing a live service is pretty high and the initial box cost won’t cover that for long.

Ultimately, it really IS the player’s perception of the value that will dictate their cost. If enough people buy them at their current price, there is no reason to lower them. If they don’t, then there’s reason to.

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Then why not ditch the box price & go PoE’s route? That way you get way more players & therefore more people to buy your MTX. It’s worked pretty well for GGG, even from back in the day when things were janky as fuck.

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It’s a choice. The box price helps cover their costs for longer so they can keep the game up while developing. If it didn’t have a box cost, they would have had to release much sooner and with much less content.

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This isn’t one of those convoluted, blurry, nuanced, detailed, unique concepts in life. It’s not one of those things I need some documentation to prove. Look at all of the character models with unique animations that relate to their abilities (leap, throwing, slam, etc.), bosses, items and their associated 3D models. All of that comes in a package for $35. I’ll always mention Elden Ring on this topic. Elden Ring is $60 and it’s an insane game with so much content. A company cannot, in good faith, charge the same prices for some body armor, regardless of how it interacts with the game and its mechanics. I’m not asking them to sell their skins for 10 cents, but I am saying their prices are still beyond too expensive.

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Elden Ring is a terrible frame of reference. You are comparing a Triple A title produced by an incredibly large company that knew their game would sell millions and millions of copies within the 1st week because of their track record, to a much smaller development team who only after a few years of Early Access finally reached a million copies sold.

Elden Ring, Bandai Namco and From Software’s potential RoI is so much higher than EHG’s. This is so ridiculous.

Edit: And yes, you do need substatial proof for a claim like this. Anything with money needs some documentation.

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Those are different things: the box price is meant to cover the initial development cost for EHG. The MTX are meant to cover the costs of an ongoing live service for many years.

Elden Ring has so much content for 60$ because they have a huge team and they have a lot of money to pay upfront to cover their team costs. So they can afford to do so. A smaller team making the same content would take a lot longer and the cost to them would be much much higher.
It’s the same principle of large surfaces vs small stores.

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Like PoE did? It (apparently) was in development for ~6 years (for 3 years prior to it’s unveiling in 2010) before it’s “release” (1.0 in 2013). Did the devs do all that work for free because there was no box price? No, of course not. There would have been some form of investment prior to the initial sales of supporter packs (which started in 2012).

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When PoE started being developed it was just a group of friends doing it. I don’t know how they financed it, but I expect they simply had another job as well.
And when they did release it, it only had 3 campaign chapters and a primitive version of maps.

LE already has more content than PoE did at launch because they were able to dedicate themselves to the game from the start, due to the kickstarter and the box price.

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You’re right, they’re a huge company. They do have a good track record. But how do they pay their employees salary? Their employees cost much more than EHG’s. They don’t have MTX. They still have to maintain servers. They were a small company once too. By all accounts (and by your metric) FromSoft should be broke right? If these 3D models really are so hard and expensive to make.

I see a lot of people are coming at this from hearsay but I’m trying to separate from that and maintain focus on objective reality. EHG would sell more products if they sold cheaper and that fact is supported by economic reality. They wouldn’t lose any money. I don’t need documentation to prove common sense to you either. Look what EHG give you for $35. They’re trying to sell you a pet for more than half of the box price as if these 2 things are almost equal in worth when in reality it’s so far and away from the case. I’m not convinced you’ve read everything I posted.

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You say this but act as though we disagree. We aren’t speaking at cross paths but you still defend expensive shops. It’s definitely playing into my point about “gamers” being in a bubble without much thought in regards to the current state of the industry and the real cost of game development and economics.

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