I know this has been brought up several times, but here I go again. The skill reaches max level (20) around Lv75. After that, character progression feels overly diminished.
In POE, you get to max skill gem level around Lv85-90, and after skill gem reaches max level, you can still corrupt it, try to grind alternate quality skill gems, grind awakened skill gems. The exp doesn’t feel wated from the skill’s perspective until very late game.
In LE, there isn’t much to work with for skills after reaching skill level 20 (except few affixes that increase the level cap of skills). Really hope there’s more to do regarding skills reach max level.
Increasing the cap is likely to cause other problems - most notably massive power creep.
It is already a well established fact that most of a builds power comes from skills and this is already something the devs are looking into. Increasing the cap would make this issue even worse.
Adding +skill affixes can already make certain skills way more powerful than probably intended - remember the trees of each skill have been balanced (and continue to be fixed) to fit within the cap without allowing someone to build skills that would be so OP the game would be even easier than it is.
The devs have confirmed that most LE builds are “finished” by level 80-85 so this is their target. Skill progression could be extended (xp wise) to make it more likely that you get to level 20 closer to 85 rather than 75, but then this poses another issue in that respeccing builds / skills will take longer. At the moment respec’ing skills is generally easy and making it require more xp to do so, is likely to be seen as a negative change.
Imho, with the devs balancing skill power with gear/passives (i.e. giving the latter more weight) will allow for more end-game progression - in both gear/loot upgrading and perhaps making the last 15 passive points have more value. This, imo, should address the character progression being “finished” too early.
I feel like something is missing after lvl 75. Leveling slows down all skills are chosen and besides a level and a skillpoint every now and then it feels bland. The higher my level is the less exited I’m about level ups and skillups. Sometimes I think there is a third stat progression system missing and even if it is only a progression system taht allows to get 25 attribute points that you can freely spent or something like this.
I don’t realy know why I feel like there is something missing and maybe I’m just paragon damaged because I miss the constantly ping of a level up and beeing able to increase points in something… I don’t know.
I don’t get this feeling with any other game strangely but I get this feeling in many places and game systems we have inside LE and I can’t put my finger on it.
I always felt like another system was wanted as well. Something not directly related to increasing character power. Maybe a little skill system for crafting/monolith that adds modifiers/bonuses. Maybe it could have some stuff that could buff Idols and/or Blessings. Maybe some stuff that could increase drop rates of specific item types or mods. If you choose put some points into a node in this hypothetical tree to increase drop rate of Crit Multi, for example, then items would have a higher chance to drop with those mods, be it affix or implicit. The blessing for Crit Multi would have a higher chance to roll as well.
There are a number of changes Mike has talked about regarding potential changes to late game progression that could help alleviate this issue. The first, and most obvious, would be the Favor System – which has thus far been touted as some kind of late game meta progression system that’ll be separate from other systems. However, considering it’s still very likely in the concepting phase there isn’t much known about it beyond the few instances it’s been brought up in the dev streams. In addition to this, Mike also discusses how they plan to slow the late game (level 95+) leveling speed and possibly shift some of the power skills provide to gear instead.
June 24, 2022 Dev Stream - again, talks to how they’re looking to add a more interesting tail to endgame progression and finishing off a build
August 12, 2022 Dev Stream (1) - talks to how late game progression is not quite as good as it should be and how a few changes at the top end could help resolve this
August 12, 2022 Dev Stream (2) - continues where the previous left off, specifically talking to the Favor System being apart of those changes
August 19, 2022 Dev Stream - probably the most descriptive high-level discussion about the Favor System thus far
Though, talking specifically to shifting more power to gear, this was brought up more recently during the Multiplayer Dev Q&A with Zizaran, in which they provided some further information on their plans:
So, at the very least, they’re aware of the issue and have some plans to help alleviate it in the future, though we don’t know the full extent of these changes just quite yet.
by the time i get to the mid-80s i lose interest and start another character.
(altoholics anonymous meets on the second thursday of each month, if that month includes a full Moon that falls on an odd-numbered friday. i’d go to the meetings , but i’m usually busy leveling a new toon)
Which has its own set of consequences.
Before 1.0 or at 1.0 they’ll likely do a very thorough balance pass. Which such ideas like the OP/yours have implications for ( I seem to remember reading a Dev post about this, but cannot find it).
Im sure it does have its own set of consequences. but this way would keep power creep at bay. Anybody who plays PoE regularly knows how much of a slippery slope power creep is. Plus, at the same time, it would address the feeling of “whats the point of continuing” that this topic brings up.
Keeping power creep in check is crucial, especially in LE, where all current content is already doable with a wide variety of builds.
I feel like skill level progression is in a good spot and would prefer it stay where it is. IMO, any stretching out of it would negatively impact experimentation and adaptation by making respecs more cumbersome, and that is one of the things I like most about LE. I feel like we have a nice medium ground between full power skill swapping on the fly (which is awful) and long catchup grinds to try new skills at a decent power level (which is also awful).
If “I hit max level on my skills well before my character was max level” is an actual problem (and I don’t really agree that it is), I’d rather that problem be solved in a way that doesn’t disrupt that medium ground.
Yeah, I agree. The talk of slowing down leveling just has me worried, as it is already enough of a chore to grind through 90-100, with nothing to show for it, except those last few novelty passive points.
Slowing down leveling, or skill leveling won’t have a positive impact on the game, imho. It will just discourage alt-play, and people will burn out far faster than otherwise. Having a fun, impactful experience is the key to retention. Not some artificial gateway on progression – I’ve never quit a game I was having too much fun playing, regardless of how fast I leveled. I normally quit games when I reach the “why does it even matter” stage, when the time-investment far outweighs the fun-payout.
The opposite is also a problem, like POE and Grim Dawn have. Where you need to invest far too many hours/grind/levels just to enable the build you are going for. I never understand build-enabling items that are ultra-rare, or require a level > 80% the max level of the game. It’s like “hi, congrats on finally being able to play your build… for your final 5 levels until max!”.
All I suggested was slowing down skill progression, it doesnt have to mean you hit max level at player level 100. I dont care either way. Instead of capping out at level 75, make it 80-85. Increasing cap is not the answer, especially since like Bronco mentioned, a lot of us dont even see a problem here, including myself.
Depends on the game, to me level 95 is still pretty low in PoE, you are about 44% of the way to 100 (roughly as 97.5 is 50%) it took me 24 /days to hit 100 on my first character, the quickest I did was just under 5 days and you actually have a lot of room to grow with 5 more points after you also have money to burn. The main reason is jewel sockets and PoEs flexible tree which other games dont have
Whereas in LE 95 is meaningless either way compared to 90/95/100 doesnt feel any different.
Grim Dawn just hands you level 100 but also wont let you roll your end game gear until 94, so making new characters feels like shit, You steamroll on a leveling build then respec at 94, play for a few hours and have nothing to do
Which is intensely stupid on POE’s part, given how little impact 5 passive points are going to make by that point in your build. 90+ is just as meaningless most of the time in POE.
I hit 100 once thanks to trade rota’s, but now usually top out at 90, 92-93 if I am still having fun.
Chris’ “vision” is starting to bite the game in the ass, the retention numbers right now are absolutely garbage! Fingers crossed big time PoE2 changes up the formula a bit.
It’s unlikely since it’s mainly a new campaign (and base classes, ascendancies, gem-socketting shenanigans), unless they change the xp formula for the original campaign as well.
Some high tier builds in PoE gain massive amounts of power for a skill point at 95+ and some dont even work well until 94+ unless you have insane gear, namely Aura/Attribute stackers gain tremendous power, but the main reason is you continually refine your passives until they are basically perfect, you drop nodes here you dont need to pickup something else now
For example you hit 97, at the same time your Enlighten gem levels up giving you 1% more mana available, which means you can now level up/use Clarity Aura and drop a few mana nodes which freeing up 3-4 points at 97 is huge, that could be a jewel socket with 45% crit multi
Yeah most people stop at 92-93 because of XP loss, if XP loss didnt exist, most people would play to around 96-97 easily, maybe even do 100
You arent lying, the xp loss is real! There have been so many times when I was ready to go for an end game boss, but was 90% to a level (around 92+ like you said) so I just mapped till I dinged.
You are also right in saying those points after 95 are in fact crucial to some builds. I have played ssf exclusively for some time, but always wanted to build an aura bot. With those builds you could do a lot with the extra levels.
