its the node on rive that turns it into a 12 12 3 sequence. 2 juicy nodes for the third strike are behind it and there is an entire section on the tree dedicated to buffing the third strike. why on earth do you make us choose cadence only to hard nerf those choices? makes no sense.
It makes total sense?
Exactly right, you are rewarded with extra juicy third strikes because you delayed them. its called a trade off its a pretty important design element in video games that makes you consider your choices. Behind it is also the ability to remove the third strike completely. For builds that want to go 12 12 12.
5 Likes
Right, because ~3x multiplier is so good that we must add two extra strikes that donât get said 3x multiplier to balance it out.
Meanwhile Multistrike can enjoy ~5x multiplier on every strike without a trade off 
Sorry, which node in Multistrike gives 400% more damage for 1 point? Are you thinking of Determination, perchance, that gives 240% more at max stacks & requires 5 points? Multistrike also requires 4 hits to get up to that bonus so itâd be better on bosses but possibly worse on clear depending on how effectively you can keep the stacks up. And Multistrike requires further points to get the additional max stacks.
If you take both Azure Cresendo & Triple Threat you get 204% more (1.5 x 1.36) for 4 points which is comparable to Determination on a per-point basis.
There is plenty of room on the tree for straightforward buffs to the attackâs DPS. If the attack is unconditionally weak, EHG should just tune those up a bit.
Itâs probably true that the cluster is not an optimal choice in any Rive build as it stands. But thatâs just unrealised potential. Imo itâs the main Rive node that is actually conceptually interesting especially now that Flame Drinker is meganerfed. It tantalises with possible interactions⌠that just donât exist yet. All it takes is some unique with a sufficiently imaginative skill modifier and messing with the strike order could become a really interesting and valuable mechanic.
There is no unique support for Rive, so itâs clearly some room that needs to be filled out. Some random examples that would directly interact with the order changes
- Riveâs 3rd strike does 200% more damage and places the skill (all strikes) on cooldown for 4 seconds
- Modifiers to Riveâs third strike apply to every strike (lol)
- Riveâs 1st strike converted to X, 2nd strike is converted to Y, and 3rd strike is converted to Z, where X,Y,Z are eg. Cold/Fire/Lightning (variants that swap the order like the Scales of Eterra)
Initiate and Path of the Knight are 350% more (2 x 1.75) on every hit, boss or no boss.
Not sure how did you arrive at 240% more 
Determination says âwhile at maximum stacksâ, it should be only 60% more right? So in total 560% more (2 x 1.75 x 1.6) on every hit.
Compared to Riveâs nodes you mentioned + Brutality, giving a total of 295,8% more (1.5 x 1.36 x 1.45). 591,6% if we think of the 200% damage effectiveness as another x2 multiplier for simplicity. But this bonus is only on 1 out of 5 hits.
PS: Assuming you go for 4 armament stacks, weâre looking at this:
| Hit no. | Multistrike | Rive |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | 350% | 0% |
| 2 | 350% | 0% |
| 3 | 350% | 0% |
| 4 | 350% | 0% |
| 5 | 560% | 591,6% |
| 6 | 560% | 0% |
Iâm being a dumbarse & assumed the bonus was per stack. Though the bonus wouldnât apply to the first 2 hits.
1 Like
Makes sense.
On the topic of skill points ⌠I hope Multistrike gets a âmodern upliftâ so that some of itâs passives will cost less points too 
But yeah, right now Iâm not a fan of Riveâs third strike spec and Iâm avoiding it like a plague 
The only time when I see a benefit is if you only want it for mana refill.
1 Like
To be fair thats just a discussion in value.
I dont think cadence is actually good for 12 12 3 builds. but more so builds that want to make use of the pull or energy waves more often, which are specific to 1 and 2.
locking powerful 3rd strike mechanics behind it just makes sense from a design point. its like skills that have a charge mechanic, making the charge take longer in exchange for bigger pay off is good design. that does not mean its optimal or balanced correctly in every case.
The issue isnt the design here, its pay off for said design perhaps, but thats its own topic.
but if you use rive solely as a utility pull tool, then cadence is pretty good to remove the third strike, so instead you are getting a pull every other swing instead of every 3rd swing without cadence. like in a HH focused build, I just used rive as a utility tool its own damage basically didnt matter.
That is exactly what OP is telling the world here.
In case it wasnât clear, right now you CANNOT utilize third strike damage nodes without taking Cadence, and taking Cadence makes it pointless to take the third strike damage nodes in the first place. Itâs an obvious design flaw, so OP is giving feedback about it.
Iâve already provided an example from a similar skill where the âpowerful mechanicsâ arenât locked behind anything, so from a design point of view there should be no problem with Rive having its third strike % more damage nodes accessible without Cadence being a requirement.
Rive does have powerful nodes not locked behind a downside? as matter of fact, its generally not worth spending 8 points to get the ones behind cadence. you are spending a total of 8 points to get all the lead up nodes to cadence, and the ones behind it.
That does not make them poor design, it just means they either need a boost in power, or exist for a niche build that for whatever reason wants more hits of 1 and 2, but does not want to ditch 3.
Also just because other skills are imo, poorly designed where the answer is obvious of âjust get more damage 4headâ if anything means those nodes should be nerfed or the ones behind cadence buffed.
The answer shouldnt be âremove cadenceâ which is what OP is implying. Because their tiny brain cant fathom a world where you have to make a choice between a slower pay off for bigger pay. heck you should just be able to delete 1 and 2, and always have 3 with full power! its stupid that it has build up nodes at all 8)
And its not like rive needs buffs, its one of the most played mana gen style attacking skills on sent vs say vengence or multistrike which see very little play. Rive is perfectly fine lol.
No, you made that up.
OP asked an open question:
When a node buffs damage, but an unavoidable node directly before it nerfs damage, that is a very obvious example of poor design.
Thatâs one of the possible solutions, but Iâd rather see them split the path, move the third strike cluster, or do literally anything else than keeping the current node setup.
This topic isnât about mana generating style of play, or about âpull enemiesâ style of play, or about âenergy waveâ style of play.
This should be obvious, but in case it isnât - itâs irrelevant to say âthese other styles of play donât need a buffâ when we are NOT talking about those styles of play.
Well, maybe instead of throwing ad-hominem and attacking strawmen, learn to read what is actually written in the topic.
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Itâs on the title: âcadence needs to goâ, meaning it should be removed.
2 Likes
I didnt strictly mean as a mana gen. but as a âno cooldown, attack buttonâ lightning blast, smite, fireball all fall into this category, they have no cooldowns, and focus on just⌠attacking.
Why? That just makes the skill tree so much more boring. there is 2 nodes for third strikes behind cadence, one which is 1/1, for 50% more damage, and 50% inc aoe. This is âpay off for delayingâ the other one is 12% more damage per point, which is less then the 15% per point with no penalty that is in the other branch of the tree, but comes with in exchange 5 mana per point refund. probably overkill if you take the mana gen passive or use mana gen affixes. but the idea is pretty simple, its for using the third strike to recover mana after likely spending it with first and second swings with energy waves and suctions.
Again this just feels like an issue of these nodes feel too weak for what they are or have misguided use. the mana node should give more mana, and have less damage so you dont think you want it just for the damage, and the damage/aoe pay off node should have more damage/pay off to justify the delay currently its too weak to justify its downside.
But this is like saying cinder strikes âonly do the first hitâ node should have 0 downsides, which would just be a no brainer take every single time. That node has problems because its downside is too steep, but they nerfed its downside and it became way more usable recently.
Thats all that needs to happen, is they need to adjust around cadence to make these nodes justify you thinking about picking them.
1 Like
I can read the title, thanks.
The âneeds to goâ is also open to options - for example âneeds to goâ from that position, âneeds to goâ away from the third strike damage nodesâŚ
The title doesnât say âneeds to go from the game/sentinel/rive skill treeâ. You guys arbitrarily decided that.
You specifically named all the the other sentinel melee attacks that generate mana, but okay. None of the other âno cooldown attack buttonâ skills you mention have a node that nerfs their damage, so nothing changed.
Perfect, so make the Cadence node a fork from the armor shred node, easy fix:
Let the player choose between the intent you just described as well as Third Strike unhindered by Cadence.
And if the mana refill is the reason for current configuration, then just move the third strike mana refill to the Cadence node itself. Problem solved.
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Yeah at this point your just trolling for the sake of the argument.
Your only proposed solution is âmake rive third strike betterâ
Sure, those nodes can have their power gutted to compensate for not being behind cadence, or is that not a viable option? fuck it then, just ignore those and make the 15% node in the upper part of the tree 100% more damage per point does same thing without the downside problem solved.
No, youâre just unable to accept your mistakes
LOL 
You realize I literally just drafted a specific solution? Man, youâre funny when you run out of arguments.
I already offered a solution for the mana refill, feel free to re-read it. There is no compensation required for the damage nodes and third strike removal node.
Yes, and Iâll welcome that change.
Rive specced into third strike really does need a damage boost, so that is one of the options for improving this Rive spec, but it doesnât change the problematic status quo of only doing damage with 1 hit out of 5. My proposed change fixes that problem.
This is another of those instances where you pick on things with a literal value knowing full well that things have meanings, just to prolong the argument or give reason to yourself.
âX needs to goâ is a well established sentence that means it need to go away. If he meant any of the ones you said, than that is the fault of the OP for not explaining correctly, not everyone elseâs fault for assuming that the sentence has the meaning that everyone knows it has.
When we say âOur president/manager/boss/whatever needs to goâ no one turns around and asks âGo where? On vacation? How niceâ, unless theyâre trying to be a clown.
So yes, the OP is saying that this node makes no sense and should go, as in not exist anymore. Which is what any sensible person would read into that.
And yes, you are just trolling for the sake of argument.
Guess itâs time to pick on your things now. 
Exactly!
Sorry, but it seems you are the only clown here.
I donât know about you, but when we say âOur president/manager/boss/whatever needs to goâ, itâs pretty normal to ask âWhere?â and the answer will be âto the doctor/to the next appointment/to take care of their child/whateverâ.
Now I wonder which context is used more often:
- X needs to go (to the next appointment, to the doctor, to the gym, âŚ)
OR - X needs to go (permanently be removed)
So no, what OP is saying remains to be clarified by OP. And yes, you guys did arbitrarily decide that OP can only mean âpermanently be removedâ, and now weâre doing this off-topic bullshittery.
You know very well that OPâs decision doesnât make or break the suggestion. So even if OP directly said âPlz remove Cadence from Rive treeâ (which he didnât), it doesnât mean itâs the only available solution. And it is certainly no reason to start attacking his intelligence like DiceDragon did.
This is another of those instances where you DJ should remember that âTo speak is silver, to remain silent is gold.â.
I donât know if you actually expect me to answer you, but youâre going to be disappointed. Iâm just going to ignore you, because there is no point to it. You only win these arguments because people get tired of it, much like they get tired of arguing with children.
I might engage once in a blue moon to point something out, but youâre going to look outside and say that the moon is never blue so that means never. This happens more so when youâve actually said something wrong and instead of saying âmy bad, didnât noticeâ you always just double down.
So be my guest and keep doubling down. Or feel free to feel like youâve won. Maybe someone will give you a cake for it.