Beloved devs, why Krafton, but not Tencent?

That’s the problem though, isn’t it?

A kickstarter is a gamble… should it be one? I personally think ‘no’.

As for the explanation:
It’s a contractual exchange. You give someone money and they provide a product in return. It’s not a charity, it’s a deal, a exchange, and that should be upheld under common rules related to that.
Isn’t though. Like many things which ‘just aren’t done’. But that’s never a good argument.

The thing that should actually be done is that the responsibility sits on the developer. If they want to provide any sort of product on their own without taking money from others… sure, be free!
But the second they do they should be held financially and contractually responsible. That means: How long is the development time? What is the roadmap? And so on.
And if not adhered to it? Refund time! Simple as that, personal financial stakes.
And if you wanna sell it? That roadmap is to be upheld by the new owners. Transition of responsibility.

You know… like in any other sector?
You can’t promise to build a house and then leave half-way and just say ‘Yeah… sorry… went awry, my bad! Goodbye!’ and no repercussion is there.
You can’t just order a pizza and then you get a message ‘Yeah sorry, we burned it, see ya!’.

That’s just not how things are supposed to go for obvious reasons.
So why for kickstarters?

But that should be the case, shouldn’t it?
I know it’s not the case… but should it be? :stuck_out_tongue:

Is it? You have kickstarters for people that just want to buy things, or get money for medicine/surgery. You’re not getting anything in exchange other than feeling good about it.

Likewise, for games, you’re donating money so people can work on the game in the hopes that it will succeed and you’ll feel good playing it and knowing you had a hand in it.

The basis for kickstarter has always been “Give me money so I can do something and sometimes you get something out of it”.

What you’re describing applies more to EA than to kickstarter. EA is when the devs put something out there and ask for players to support them while they’re developing the game. With EA you do have an expectation that it will be completed.
But the kickstarter model has always been about wish fulfilling, not a contract exchange.

Kickstarter is basically Shark Tank but with players giving money.

2 Likes

Is there a back and forth?

In terms of ‘I’ll make a product and you get access’ which is the baseline of game kickstarters after all it’s a contractual exchange.
Which states ‘You give me the money and you get a product in return’.

It’s entirely different from one set up in the way of ‘Give me money, I want to create xyz’, like a card game, or any physical product, without any sort of remuneration attached.
If it’s attached though? Once more, contractual exchange, just at the basis of ‘Pay what you want’ with minimum amounts attached. Hence why kickstarters often have tiers.

But if you pay for someone else’s medicine… do you get something in return? That’s hence charity. We need to differ between those 2 really really well.

I agree. If the kickstarter says ‘give us money, we want to make this!’ and that’s it. No return.

But… was that the case? No badges, no access, no nothing? :slight_smile:

It’s just like Shark Tank or any of the many variations. You see a proposition/business model, you think it might succeed and give you dividends (either in terms of rewards/money or in terms of fun) and you invest in it.
That doesn’t mean it will succeed. Just that you think it’s worth investing in it in the hopes it does.

There’s no obligation attached to it other than them trying to accomplish what they set out to do.
But the whole business model is simply about investing in a future possibility. Which might or might not come to pass. And if it does, then you get to play the game and you get your rewards.

Did they fail to deliver? Looking at the tiers, most of it is getting a digital copy, playing alpha/beta, getting MTX, designing items, forum title, etc.
Those seem to have been delivered.

1 Like

bro, you’re high on copium.

the very nature of kickstarters/ea is “trust me bro”.

its similar to an investment. you buy in, in hopes that it pays off. sometimes it does and sometimes it doesnt.

in the contract it states (paraphrasing) “trust me bro”

1 Like

So… speculation for return of dividends is a completely different topic then the premise of ‘If I pay xyz I get zyx in return’. You can’t quantify the success of something… you can also not quantify the ‘fun’ it provides… but you can absolutely do quantify the made promises to the result provided as a product.

Which - as was fairly hard to miss I think? - I’m saying ‘It should not be the case’.
The second you provide money for a distinct return it should be a legally binding obligation.

Umh… YES? Massively so?

Where should we start?
How about the Lost Memory system?
How about the trading aspect of ‘being able to gift items freely after a reasonable time of being friends’?
Monolith branching questlines with effect on the follow-up ones?
Where’s the ‘Gates of Memorium’?
LAN support?
PvP? (Not the modes… the basic of it existing at all)

How well did they adhere to the release schedule? Ya know… release April 2020? Overextension much?

Any more questions in terms of ‘Did they fail to deliver?’

Which I’m still saying ‘It shouldn’t be’… I dunno, today the reading comprehension is kinda bad overall with me saying ‘It is xyz but that’s not something that should be the case given a promised return, hence it should be zyx instead’.
Ya know… kinda includes the situation ‘as is’ and the situation ‘as should be’.

as opposed to today having people say stuff like gambling shouldnt be random and instead it should be deterministic.

some people are so high on copium that they want to bend definitions to their will.

you can feel free to disagree with actual definitions and take jabs at people but that wont change the reality of the fact.

everyone wants kickstarters/eas to hit all their goals and promises. sometimes they do, sometimes they dont. its similar to investment. but i think i m wasting time explaining definitions since my reading comprehension is so awful.

I was talking about the goal rewards. The tier rewards. The thing that people actually paid to get. Did they get that?

Why not? The whole thing started off as “What if shark tank but with regular people?”. People don’t have to invest if they don’t want to.
It’s like saying that gambling sites shouldn’t exist or porn sites.

As long as it’s clearly marked what it is, it’s a business model like any other.

2 Likes

Ah man, I was really hoping this game would outpace the POE2 drama. Lots of interesting ideas, though they are all somewhat rough around the edges.

However, I fear this game will either go the Diablo 4 path of rote, basic powerscaling, or it will be farmed for MTX.

It was fun, but I’d rather support something else.

No, since they are inherently attached to what those include :wink: And Steam actually agrees with that nowadays related to Early Access. No following the dealine? Refund! Not providing the promised content? Refund!
Ya know… how it should’ve been from the start?
Why the heck do you think so many regulations are gradually made in terms of video games? That crap all was - and still is - rampant after all.

‘Yeah, I’ll give you access to this executable which doesn’t include the stuff I promised. What do you mean that’s not what you paid for?’ :stuck_out_tongue:

Sure… you don’t have to pay for your delivery if you don’t want that stuff. Arrives broken? Well… was just a gamble, wasn’t it?

Same situation.

If you pay for something which is specifically stated you should get that specific thing, not something else, and not something less.

Why should it be acceptable as a kickstarter but not in any other situation then the kickstarter related ones specifically? Because surprisingly those count as either ‘fraudulent’ or ‘deceptive’ practices then.
Kinda something to think about I would argue.

Definitely not the same situation, as I’m sure you’re aware.

The same situation would be your friend having some business idea, you liking that idea and giving him money for it.
If his idea pays out, you might even make money, if not it’s possible you’re even left without the money you loaned.

You mean other than the situation where anyone is investing in anything ever? Like the whole startup business model?

2 Likes

First of all… that shouldn’t be done, friendship ends where money begins. If my friend has a fantastic idea I’ll gladly support him, and for that support he’ll return something of value to me.
That’s not only fair but also mandated for proper reciprocity. Shares of the company for example. All fine. Otherwise that money won’t have as much psychological value either, which would already reduce the success chances.
Then it’s a proper investment into it.

What kickstarter commonly does though in the gaming industry is nothing else then a sales-pitch. A company is not your friend and never will be. Yes, a company can treat customers well, but they’re first off: Not a person. And secondly: A business.
And a business is always give and take, not one-sided.
Otherwise it’s a charity.

The startup business model doesn’t provide a clear-cut return, it provides revenue shares.
It’s a win-win or a lose-lose. It’s even.
Either both sides win or both sides lose.

In the kickstarter of EHG for example it’s a sale, nothing else.

‘You’ll get: xyz’
‘You’ll pay us minimum: amount’

In that buy there’s a outline included, which states the type of game, the content and examples.
That mandates that those are provided, not others, not less, not different stuff.

If I buy into the product because of the promised ‘Passive Grid System’ then actually by law that payment is attached to that buy-reason in the EU.
I - as a customer - for example paid because of the premise ‘This system will be in the end-product’.
By law in the EU the money hence was provided with a reason. A contract was formed through the intent.

I’ll give you a direct example where this is important and has happened to come into play:
The game ‘The Bazaar’ (a F2P auto-battler card-building game) had the promises of no P2W monetization at all. Same as the kickstarter of EHG by the way.
They changed that though and actively unclided P2W elements.
Now my buy-premise of ‘This game has no P2W elements’ is gone.

It is regulated in the Unfair Commercial Practices Directive (UCPD) 2005/29/EC actually and it states that this is cause for a refund.
For how long? Not stated as live-service games are between a service and a product, hence a massive legal gray area.

But in the case of ‘The Bazaar’? They were forced to refund anyone reasoning the refund with the directive stated in it.
I personally did so as well for that game by the way, and got the refund.

Why did they have to give it?
Because otherwise they would’ve broken existing EU customer laws, which should be at that level world-wide actually, and more, it’s still riddled with loopholes after all.

Which aspect is it specifically?
Deceptive business practices.
If you promise something and then provide something not fitting to that promise it would mean you wouldn’t have spend the money. So since that’s not the case you were deceived and hence have a right to get your money returned.

As said, not often enforced and a hassle, but it happens, and that’s one of the reasons why - once again mentioned - Initiatives like ‘Stop Killing Games’ happen.
To not allow predatory practices or unfair practices to exist.

That will depend on the friends. I’ve loaned money to friends and family and had no issues with it.
You can’t just make a blanket statement like that and expect it to actually be true.

It’s exactly the same thing.
Startups: You give us money, we’ll increase our company/business and you’ll get revenue.
Kickstarter: You give us money, we’ll work on the game.

For both it’s win-win or lose-lose. Either EHG succeeds and you have a good game to play (both sides win) or they fail and they don’t have a game to sell and you don’t have one to play (both sides lose).

Kickstarter is 100% based on the startup investment model (it’s actually how they got started in the first place), which is turn is based on the whole Shark Tank model. You pitch an idea and hope someone will give you money to achieve it.
It’s always an investment and it’s never guaranteed.

1 Like

Once more:
If you’re a kickstarter backer and you backed because of - for example - the passive Grid.

Where is your game? :slight_smile:
EHG got money.
You never got what you wanted though, did you?
If they said ‘this will be a ARPG like diablo’ and then provided a platformer… would it be the product you invested into? No.
Same as with the aspects of it. You can’t differentiate without going into nonsense territory, which is the point.

So that’s all that’s needed, nah… your argument isn’t sustained.

That is actually covered by kickstarter’s terms and conditions. And is reason enough to get a refund.

This, however, is not. You’re buying a whole package. Parts of it may not be delivered and the product still be the same. The basis of the kickstarter was:
“Last Epoch is a loot-based Action RPG that combines time travel, deep character customization, crafting, and an engrossing item system that guarantees endless replayability.”

Then they detail a bunch of stuff they wanted to make (and most of which they delivered). Saying that you backed up only because of the passive grid is the same as saying that you backed up because it shows 10 masteries but now you have 15. You’ve been deceived.
Or they added arena, which isn’t part of the kickstarter. Oh noes… whatever shall I do?

You decided to invest in a game. It delivered a completely different experience. That is misleading and reasons for a refund.
You decided to invest in a game. It delivered the product with only a few things that changed. That’s just how game development works.

Especially when EHG has always been open when they changed things.

Your argument is like saying that if you invest on a chocolate company that says they will have a golden colored packaging and then they change it to a silver one then it’s a totally different product.
If the golden colored packaging was the single reason why you backed it up, then it’s your fault. Details may change but the product will still be the same.

I’m not talking about ToS, I’m talking about law-related things.
And ethical conduct for doing business beyond that.

Not by law, you don’t.
Otherwise ‘The Bazaar’ wouldn’t have gotten issues with that now related to EU-law, wouldn’t it?
But it did as it’s against law.
And it would be in their ‘whole package’… just that the package is a different one… still the same game, isn’t it?

ToS is worthless when it comes to law, plain and simple.

And it’s even more worthless when it comes to ethical conduct.

I know law tends to differ from ethical conduct all too often.
And I know even beyond that ToS don’t even adhere to laws in several cases, like Blizzard’s ‘we’ll cease your license without needing to name a reason at all’ BS.

Outside of the list of named ones I mentioned…
Like PvP.
Would you say that playing PvP versus PvE is substantial enough to warrant someone not engaging in a product and not paying if they’d known it otherwise?

That’s the whole premise of that specific direction of law after all in the EU. It suffices already, plain and simple.

Sure… one is different, the other is more.
Kinda odd to complain about ‘more’, is it? Natural to complain about ‘different’ though.

‘Ah, sorry, we didn’t have the cheap bricks anymore, so we gave you the premium ones which will last longer and sustain better against most known issues the cheap ones have.’ ‘How dare you upgrading what I ordered!’ :stuck_out_tongue:

Or a portion in a restaurant. Albeit at least we can argue it’ll go to waste there, so at least a reasonable basis. Hard to have masteries ‘go to waste’ as they don’t tend to rot (I hope at least! If not I hope EHG has good coolers to keep the shaman fresh! :stuck_out_tongue: )

Sure! Doesn’t matter though.
‘Yeah, we’re not gonna deliver your stuff to your side-address… instead we’ll deliver it to your main address since we don’t have fuel to reach your side one.’

Open, transparent… don’t give a crap anyway, I want what I want and how I want it, as a customer understandable, won’t you say so too? :stuck_out_tongue:

Nah, if they promise to make chocolate and tell you ‘we’ll have a chocolate with hazelnut, one with plum and one with rasberry!’ and then you get ‘a hazelnut, a strawberry and a banana’ instead.

Still chocolate, right?

Edit:
And if they specifically mention ‘gold packaging’ and they provide ‘silver’… then yeah, obviously? Not what I ordered, is it? Nitpicking, sure… but who are you to decide what reasons I pay my money for? I ordered gold… I’ll get gold or money back, as should be my right.

Yet. The product still isn’t complete (nor can it be since it’s a seasonal model). Mike has already said several times on screen that it’s something they want to add as soon as they figure out the way they want to implement it.
Some things have been dropped and were announced to the players as such and the reasons for it. PvP isn’t one of them.

Not that odd. More makes the game more complicated and maybe I didn’t want a more complicated game.

The kickstarter also didn’t mention anything about pinnacle bosses. Pinnacle bosses is more. And yet people complain about them.

Maybe I didn’t want premium ones because it’s a publicly accessible construction and expensive premium materials will get stolen.

If you buy it from Amazon, sure. Or if you buy it and it’s delivered all squishy. Because that is a product that is on display to be sold as is. Even though in the last case you definitely don’t complain to the delivery service, since they’re not contracted to you, they’re contracted to Amazon. So you complain to Amazon instead and Amazon will square things out with them.

But with kickstarter you’re not buying products. You’re investing in a business. And there’s no guarantee in any investment business - kickstarter, startup or otherwise - that every single detail will be as as planned.

As long as the end result is the planned one (in this case, “a loot-based Action RPG that combines time travel, deep character customization, crafting, and an engrossing item system that guarantees endless replayability.”), their obligation is fulfilled.

I look at it this way and I’ll continue to say it in my replies:
EHG has a good game and have done some great things with the resources they had. They need more resources to compete with GGG and Blizzard. Whether or not Krafton was the correct choice vs other options, we will never know the full story. Its dumb to speculate as much.

The situation with Subnautica is curious and we have to see how the courts rule. It does sound shady but we still have no clue. For all we know, that was just one deal that went sour for unknown reasons to all of us and the EHG deal will be as positive as it was with the rest of Krafton’s games.

To address everyones outrage that Judd and EHG sold out for corpo bucks… GGG did that years ago. Yet, no one cares. You people are so fickle. You think GGG is infallable. You forget that they gave streamer queue priority for a league launch and swept it under the rug with Chris Wilson apologized. Yet, a CEO of a smaller ARPG studio is trying to make sure his studio and the game survives by bringing in corpo money… and you roast THAT guy?

2 Likes

Oh?
And here I thought ‘1.0 release version’ would count as ‘complete as promised’.
Not to speak of missing the deadline by friggin years :stuck_out_tongue:

How long exactly is the leeway? A year? 2? 10? 20? 100?
Where exactly is the line?

Sure… and I’m also sure some people were outraged at that, as they’re allowed to!
So, no matter how many years in… should that be refunded then? :slight_smile:

Hrmm… we’re going into interesting topics now. Timeframes, if simply saying ‘yeah, that’s the reason so we won’t do it despite promising it’ trumping the reason for the payment.
All very murky at best.
Legally wonky even in the EU, but wonky… not inherently forbidden as there’s still the respective scale included… which plainly spoken… it shouldn’t now, should it?

Ok, so if you simply close your eyes and ignore those 5 extra masteries exist… would that cause you to have a different product?
I mean… if the chocolate example company says they’ll produce 3 flavors… but add a fourth… is that now too complicated of a choice? :stuck_out_tongue:

Unless that stuff is directly interwoven - and hence not a choice - with the promised content then it’s extra.
Much like weaver is not ‘extra’ but actively interfering as it’s not a choice. It’s a change, not a expansion by itself.

Yeah, for different reasons though.
Wanna name em and get into it? Those are coherency issues. And they’re not based on the kickstarter premise but the live-service premise. Which both are important to differ topic-wise.

Not your problem when they build it into your house now, is it? Because it’s the company responsible for keeping the construction site safe, not yours as the contractor.
You got provided better materials, and unless they differ in usage and the company providing those with the company using those (you know, construction companies generally have special deals and buy that stuff for you, you don’t have to get them and then handle that the right materials get to the right place, obviously. Same as you not having to provide the coders for the game extra :stuck_out_tongue: ) there is no problem with that.

Murky here, but generally how you state it should be the way it goes, absolutely. Here we sadly have to deal with the delivery service itself, which is bollocks.

Am I?
Last time the term ‘investing’ is related to shares.
Do I own shares of EHG when backing the kickstarter? No? I own a license to the game and not even as a full product with a offline executable installer and all versions freely available at any time to go back to?
No LAN either to sustain offline-play only for groups?
Is that also ‘still planned’? :stuck_out_tongue:

Yeah, but only if you miss the capacity to read the full page… which I hope people are a bit smarter then that.
Because the statement on the page is a ‘sliiiight’ bit more then that :stuck_out_tongue:

Obviously not in this case. It was a choice between launching the game incomplete and keep working on it or not completing at all and going bankrupt.
In one case we get a game that continues to develop, in the other we get a game that is dead before launch.

Dunno about you, but I do prefer the former.

Also, regarding the PvP, you might notice that it was part of the goals and one that wasn’t met. The goals that were met were “Funded” (where you get the game) and Controller Support, which they have.
So if you invested in LE because of the PvP, then you should know that the goal wasn’t met and they don’t have any obligation to add it.

Did they fail to deliver “A loot-based Action RPG featuring time travel, character building, crafting, and an item system that guarantees endless replayability”? If yes, then you could be refunded. If not, not refud.

EU laws regarding investing (and crowdfunding falls under investments) are very different from product trading. Which makes sense because they’re 2 different things.

Kickstarter falls under the former. Buying a game on steam would fall under the latter.

It would. Because there is one extra mastery tree. Which makes creating builds more complicated because you have more choices.

Not talking about Uby. I’m simply talking about Aby when it was introduced last season. Some people complained because they didn’t want to have pinnacle content in the game, as it made it feel like the game no longer catered to them and that they wouldn’t be able to play the whole game anymore.

Who said I’m building my house? Nothing in the original premise said that. I ordered an undisclosed amount of cheap bricks to do whatever I want to do with them, like creating some sort of communal structure, and I got premium ones which will cause them to be stolen, and thus my project destroyed.

Point is that getting an upgrade isn’t always something you might want. If you’re renting a car and they give you an upgrade to a bigger car, it’s harder to drive in the city, or to find a spot to park. And it will consume more gas.

It’s not. Investing means you provide resources to assist in the success of a business in return for a potential reward in case they succeed.

Shares is simply the most common practice in high business practices. But it’s definitely not mandatory.

You can invest in a bookstore, either by providing money or even just providing labour, in return for a discount on sales, for example.
You can invest in a dog washing business in return for getting your dog washed for free.
You can invest invest in an hospital or library in return for having your name in one of the wings.

But you’re investing in the idea. Details change over time. The idea is what you’re investing in.
The rest of the page is simply details on how they aim to reach the idea of “a loot-based Action RPG that combines time travel, deep character customization, crafting, and an engrossing item system that guarantees endless replayability”. Which, again, they might change, as long as the main idea is delivered.

If you invest in a company that aims to reduce electricity costs by replacing bulbs with neon and then they come to the conclusion that neon isn’t practical so they instead replace them with led. As long as they reduced the electricity costs (the idea being sold) the details can change.

Anyway, not sure if it’s worth continuing this already long discussion. You seem to assume you’re buying a product when you’re clearly not (especially because the product doesn’t exist yet, so it would be hard to do so).
Crowdfunding falls under investment laws in the EU and in most of the world, where applicable.

And the laws and expectations are different between both.

1 Like