ARPG communities are their own worst enemy. Just musing and laughing, feel free to ignore

[DJSamhein]

@Kaolyr

But what if at some point, you realise that you don’t enjoy your build that much and think about switching masteries? Would you do a new char to achieve that goal, having 2 of the same classes, and as a result keeping your first “depreciated” character?

Yes. If I have a hammer throw paladin and I want to make a warpath paladin, I create a new character. So not only do I have more than 1 character in the same class, I have more than 1 character in the same mastery.

@Kaolyr

In LE, most of your power comes from your gear, not your abilities or class.

Other than some build defining unique, not really.
If you don’t select any skill and use only your base attack, you won’t get far even with 4LP legendaries.

But I think your misunderstanding regarding this comes from different definitions of “character identity”. Character identity isn’t really the character personality, motivations, flaws, etc.

Character identity is simply the choices you make to create that character.
In a regular RPG like D&D, this includes choices like the aforementioned personality, motivations, flaws, etc, as well your race, your class, your height, your hair color and so on, and along with it your skills, spells, etc. All of these are sort of permanent, baring jumping through hoops to change them.

In a diablo-like, you have less choices, but they’re still choices. You choose your class, your mastery, your skills and your passive tree. You don’t have choices for your personality (though you’re free to come up with them if you want), but you still have choices. And those are part of the character identity.

Making those choices not have meaning because you can undo them with a touch of a button removes that identity.
And making it so that switching a mastery is a 1-minute thing while releveling a new character will take lots of hours, depending on which level you are, also kinda removes the incentive not to use respec.

[Kulze]

@Kaolyr

Would you do a new char to achieve that goal, having 2 of the same classes, and as a result keeping your first “depreciated” character?

That has been the ongoing theme for a long long time. Why is that actually good? Because it allows you to shift back to it. It’s not ‘gone’ but in storage simply, and surprisingly many people tend to rotate between those playstyles they like when they’re becoming established.

So now instead of keeping up a single character with progression of the game you got 2… this counters the reduced time investment into individual mechanics (as you’ve already ‘played it out’ anyway) but instead focuses on re-doing the new ones more often then formerly. The more characters the more time investment.

So when a new mechanic offering 5 hours comes out someone with 2 characters will spend 10… someone with 10 characters 50 hours in it.
This allows longevity to sustain itself to a degree. Obviously it’s not a 100% situation where everyone and for everything does it… but it definitely does increase the overall investment comparatively.

@Kaolyr

In LE, most of your power comes from your gear, not your abilities or class.

But the type of gear is reliant on class and then further on build.
Hence this still creates a identity for the character, which is very important to mention.

Yes, it’s reduced, but it’s not like for example Dungeon Siege 1 where your character had the idendity of ‘the hero’ and that was the end of the line as you could simply switch between melee and mage without any downsides. This was nigh never done though, and if it was done anyway it wasn’t investing even remotely the amount of time into your character to push that secondary way of playing up, you instead reduced the total playtime substantially.
The game was ‘played out’ quicker this way and you only needed a single character.

@Kaolyr

You have your party, class identity is distinctly defined, okay. But the leveling / story / campaign takes up 90% of the game.

Then use MMOs instead of the classic SP RPG game and you’ll immediately find it upheld again.

The only divergence - and a well designed one actually - is Final Fantasy 14, which simply removed the need to create a new character but demands playing up the respective aspects nonetheless from start to finish with fairly minimal reduction of effort being needed comparatively.

[CaiusMartius]

@Llama8

I think that there’s definitely room to listen to other people & change, but if they change “everything” then you get a game made by a committee as you say & that’ll suck. There is a middle road.

I agree which is why I said “listen.” The “game/movie/song by committee” thing is something that sends me into a coma.

[oldschooldiablo]

@ResplendentEgo

I don’t think so, especially not in an ARPG. Character progression in ARPG’s are based on gear

It is a fact that it does in fact do this.

They used an example laying out the facts behind it using D&D. It no different in an arpg

Thats exactly why max roll changed how they do there guides. Why lvl with a blast rain marksmen with explosive trap procing off denating arrow when umbrella blades falconer is the strongest rouge build for lvling.

Mastery respec does for fact remove the weak and strong points of a build.

Facts trump opinions. Which tbh those facts where layed out. U may not think it does this. In reality it does for a fact.

Theres even more facts to this i could lay out. Show casing this even further and those would be how builds where made when mastery selection was permanent

[oldschooldiablo]

@Kaolyr

This is not D ‘n’ D either, which is a party board game. In D ‘n’ D (from the few games I’ve played), the emphasis is put on your class, your party, your base stats and your abilities / passives. There is a gigantic amount of abilities and as some of them are shared between classes, class fantasy is a tad diluted.

Completely missing the point they are getting at. The same exact thing applies to all arpgs.

Push aside the game they used as an example and look at the example they gave. It fits any arpg that has mastery switching

[Erasculio]

@ResplendentEgo

that in this specific situation was adapted to be used as an insult, this applied through context

Err… Not really, no. Something may have been lost in translation (English is not my first language, sorry). But by “projecting” I meant taking what is his/her individual opinion and assuming it’s also the opinion of a majority (or of a high number of people). I don’t know why you thought it would have been an insult, I may have worded it poorly.

[ResplendentEgo]

@oldschooldiablo

Thats exactly why max roll changed how they do there guides. Why lvl with a blast rain marksmen with explosive trap procing off denating arrow when umbrella blades falconer is the strongest rouge build for lvling.

Alright, I had to look up the respec mastery costs because I was under the impression that it was 1 million gold at all levels, which makes the entire situation completely different, and I hope you can understand that. It was getting pretty confusing having so many people insinuate a player could easily do something I clearly thought was impossible.

I have only ever re-specialized a character at level 100.

@oldschooldiablo

Facts trump opinions.

Just because the nature of leveling has changed, doesn’t mean that the end game outcome is different. I can at least admit where I was wrong. This does in fact have an enormous impact on character progression getting to monoliths. This does not, however, change the fact that ultimately how well a character does , and how far it can go is gear dependent.

The issues that are plaguing the multiplayer experience are rife with inconsistencies. From balancing issues that make certain archetypes much more efficient across the board, to scaling potential, which creates power vacuums where either a small percentage of players are grossly out performing their peers or everyone is playing the same 2-5 builds.

People being opposed to a system because it changes how other people play the game is still an opinion. That mic drop moment is still just someone telling someone else how they feel. I don’t use guides, even if I play a meta build I talk to people in chat or look up characters on lastepochtools.com. Changing my mastery repeatedly to have marginally shorter runs from level 1 to monoliths is tedious and pointless to me. So I personally wouldn’t do this. How someone else decides to play is also not going to affect my experience at all. Why would I care in the first place?

Why do you?

@oldschooldiablo

Theres even more facts to this i could lay out. Show casing this even further and those would be how builds where made when mastery selection was permanent

Go ahead and lay them out. At this point, the “conversation” has turned into a who-can-be-more-right game. Nothing you, or anyone else for that matter, can say is going to convince me that having more freedom in a endeavor people use to pass their time is a bad thing. As for how creating builds has changed, shining a flashlight on mastery respecs without acknowledging the changes to individual classes, item introductions, changes in content that allow for different approaches to getting gear, etc. is near-sighted to say the least when approaching the subject. I, for the life of me, will never understand why people are so staunchly opposed to this type of change. Not that disliking it is a problem at all. But you are able to do this in quite literally every single ARPG I can think of.

If you don’t like the feature, don’t use it. If you’re upset because you don’t like that other people can do it, get over it. Pushing up our glasses to debate the legitimacy of this is a meme. Just a couple of crying wojaks killing time.

[ResplendentEgo]

My bad. My experience with the statement is this context is usually when someone is trying to make someone else appear irrational in a conversation. Therapeutic language has made its way into the casual lexicon, but the training (or at the very least the self education) to properly use much of it hasn’t. I’m also a bit of a pedantic.

So again, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

[DiceDragon]

@ResplendentEgo

Just because the nature of leveling has changed, doesn’t mean that the end game outcome is different. I can at least admit where I was wrong. This does in fact have an enormous impact on character progression getting to monoliths. This does not, however, change the fact that ultimately how well a character does , and how far it can go is gear dependent.

No one said otherwise lol.

But you have to understand those are still important elements to a game. Early game is when the player learns and interacts with the game a lot.

Many players jump around and try different things in this genre before ever making it to end game, they want to explore all the options. Your opinion/knowledge on options is warped/diminished if you dont understand how things perform from the ground up.

A good example is solo bear BM, people see clips of it blasting bosses/ubberoth and go “w0w that looks so cool im gonna go play that, I can get bear at level 25? easy pz” then learn “oh wait this does not play at all like I like and its so slow to gear up” because they didnt consider the stages between level 1 and level 100 deleting the game with perfect gear.

Being able to swap mastery means you dont actually have to consider that at all. You just play whatever build farms the best. Hell, you can pick up the reflect chest, go reflect shaman, walking sim farm 500c with almost 0 gear while collecting all the loot for bear BM then swap. Cause even at level 100, the cost is quite reasonable even more so in MG.

[Makszi]

OP, if anyone had sympathy for you before, they definitely don’t now …

[Kulze]

@ResplendentEgo

Alright, I had to look up the respec mastery costs because I was under the impression that it was 1 million gold at all levels, which makes the entire situation completely different, and I hope you can understand that.

It also depends on the player being CoF versus MG… and when MG if they’re not solely buying and maybe selling 1-2 items… but actively using the trade system to provide to the market at large.

Even now I can still make 10 mil per hour roughly in Legacy… which is a bit better in Cycle since while prices are a bit lower the variety of items wanted is still a bit bigger.
Not taking the time needed into consideration to actually sell the stuff… that doubles it nearly, but less now.

So even at level 100 that’s 10 respecs possible.

One of the big reasons why I’m repeatedly saying ‘Gold for MG is a mess’.

It’s after all still at least 4 hours saved towards empowered… and not to speak of already unlocked and optimized blessings… those are a big thing for min-max after all and takes ages to re-do reliably.

@ResplendentEgo

Nothing you, or anyone else for that matter, can say is going to convince me that having more freedom in a endeavor people use to pass their time is a bad thing.

It’s still the same reasoning as ever. Limitations cause results to have more value.
The more limited you are the more valuable a result achieved nonetheless.

Mastery respec is the same freedom as creative mode in some games.
If you compare for example Factorio and Shapez 2 in the factory-game genre then Factorio provides a much much higher reward because you’re limited in how close/far away you can build (at the start), you need resources to build things and you need to handle scarcity and optimization related tasks.
Shapez 2 is a great game but you can simply build up stuff once and then copy/paste without any resources spent or anything of the likes.

For some one is better… for the others the other. The point is that there’s both a upper and lower limit, this changes per genre and per setup of the game at large. ANd in the ARPG genre a distinct amount of limitations has proven to be better then others for a larger group of people simply.

[Kiadaw]

Reading this thread remind me how many people thinks they are the expert, and how they are the arbitor of what makes a good arpg or how players feel, & game to be designed. They cannot rationale many people think different from them and they are NOT wrong becuase they did not think like them.

When someone made a claimed e.g " If they allow this, this will be the results players will feel xxx"

What they don’t realised is, they are essnetally saying “Not what players” will feel…but "What they (the person himself/herself) feel. Others may fel same, and others DO NOT.

Its a typical projection of person thoughts and feel and assume majority of people (or the smart ones) think the same. Spoiler, Its often not true.

I personally made theads and topics many times thinking most people agreed with me, and turn out not. This made me as least the humanity to know my opinion only represent my own.

[EmperessPotatoe]

Literally not how opinions work. You are talking about a group of people who are all playing the same game. It comes with a certain mentality most of the time, so its usually pretty fair to assume, within the group…that many people likely would feel a certain way about a change or that they feel a certain way about anything.

When you are in a room full of Anime fans, do you think they would mostly agree that anime is good? Or do you think some of them would suddenly dislike anime?
Do you think they would object to there being MORE anime every year? I would wager that room would be really excited for more anime.
You? You would have every one of them say something entirely different or even unrelated.

You are right on a global scale, but this isn’t global…this is a small faction of people all aiming in the same general direction. It’s pretty easy to predict how the community at large feels about a thing by actually talking to them.

Did you do what I did? I spent nearly a year just sitting in-game, talking to people and asking them about certain features and how they feel. I went to other forum based websites and asked there, then I came here and made a post.

I didn’t just randomly assume with no data, I had facts to support my claim.
I literally had a signed petition that was submitted it to EHG. Whether that actually had any effect on them changing mastery? I have no idea. But at least I got people together and asked them their opinions before making a post.

You just did the exact opposite, and the very thing you claim I was doing.
You made an assumption about what other people are doing and thinking, without any data to support your claim.
I advocated for people, you just make assumptions.

I did the same thing here. Hundreds of people in-game and on the forum are asking for some pretty basic quality of life changes, and all it takes is a handful of overly vocal dipsticks who can’t be bothered to actually read and contemplate on what they read, before responding. They just hear a basic one-liner from a giant wall of text, respond from a purely emotional standpoint, present a bunch of false logic paths and straw-man arguments and slippery slopes…several different logical fallacies usually, and then they pretend they have a point when all they did was gibber incoherently like somebody rolling a 1 on a speech check in DnD. Critical failure is always imminent in those cases, and they tend to do nothing but derail any attempt to affect positive change in any community or product of ideology. Anything you care to name, is ruined by those kinds of people. It’s where the “we can’t have nice things” phrase comes from, because those kinds of people never solve problems, they just add to them.

But again, on a global scale, you would be correct.
In the microcosm of a niche game market in a niche game?
It’s easy to extrapolate with such a small group. Ask the developers, I’d wager they would say something in the same vein…

[Llama8]

@EmperessPotatoe

handful of overly vocal dipsticks who can’t be bothered to actually read and contemplate on what they read, before responding. They just hear a basic one-liner from a giant wall of text, respond from a purely emotional standpoint, present a bunch of false logic paths and straw-man arguments and slippery slopes…several different logical fallacies usually, and then they pretend they have a point when all they did was gibber incoherently like somebody rolling a 1 on a speech check in DnD. Critical failure is always imminent in those cases, and they tend to do nothing but derail any attempt to affect positive change in any community or product of ideology.

It’s things like this that lead to escalation, threads getting closed & you getting temp banned. If you can’t see that you’re involved in the escalation and general arsehattery then that’s a you problem. I’ve highlighted a few phrases l, you might want to consuder why, you wouldn’t want to just react emotionally & gibber incoherently now would you?

@EmperessPotatoe

In the microcosm of a niche game market in a niche game?

You’re looking at it from the wrong angle. Yes, arpgs are a niche market & LE is a niche game in it, and yet there is still a wide range of viewpoints. Just because you’ve selected “hundreds” of views doesn’t mean they cover a wide array of players. You apparently didn’t include anyone like AbombDaChamp, for example, or a streamer or anyone who can do the campaign under 10-25 hours (which is probably a significant subset of the playerbase whether you like that or not).

You’ve also not answered my genuine question as to how you managed to take that long, though I think I remember reading one of your posts where you said you didn’t have a clue what was happening. I could be misremembering.

@EmperessPotatoe

It’s easy to extrapolate with such a small group.

Yeah, I can do that too with a different group & come up with some very different answers. Doesn’t make it reasonable to apply that to the entire community, but at least I’m aware of that.

[EmperessPotatoe]

@Llama8

It’s things like this that lead to escalation, threads getting closed & you getting temp banned

nothing in there is worthy of anything other than recognition. People do it in literally every thread. they see one line they don’t agree with, and make an emotional argument instead of one based on reality.
Calling them a bad actor isn’t a bad thing, it’s simply what they are. If “you”, them, can’t come into a discussion with a serious head on your shoulders, why waste your own time and our time doing half measures?

If calling out bad behavior is bad, then I don’t know what to tell you. I guess we just suffer in silence? Or maybe we can hold people actually accountable for derailing countless threads with their willful ignorance?

[DJSamhein]

@EmperessPotatoe

nothing in there is worthy of anything other than recognition. People do it in literally every thread. they see one line they don’t agree with, and make an emotional argument instead of one based on reality.

You mean like you ignoring the vast majority of what people reply to just to focus on something you don’t agree with? Like you asking what’s the harm in having the choice, getting at least 2 different answers to it, but disregarding it entirely and replying to something else instead? Oh, the irony.

[Kulze]

@EmperessPotatoe

I didn’t just randomly assume with no data, I had facts to support my claim.

Ok, provide em then, don’t just say ‘trust me bro’ with it.
If you want facts to support you then you need to provide em.
Then it needs to be seen if the method of getting those facts actually allows the proper options to voice it against the premise you seek.
Then you need to reveal the results of that accordingly, sustaining or not sustaining your initial thoughts.

@EmperessPotatoe

I literally had a signed petition that was submitted it to EHG.

Have you preampled it with a vote? So you get an actual spread rather then simply some signatures which sustain your thought that it’s a ‘yes’?
Because ‘hundreds of signatures’ is really not hard to get when there’s about 600k or so potential players for LE… I think more even.

@EmperessPotatoe

and then they pretend they have a point when all they did was gibber incoherently like somebody rolling a 1 on a speech check in DnD.

Your lack of comprehension is not the fault of the writer, it’s your personal shortcoming.

Albeit it definitely would be better for people to generally dumb things down a bit more, which is not always possible.

Also I wanna point out:

@EmperessPotatoe

They just hear a basic one-liner from a giant wall of text, respond from a purely emotional standpoint,

This is primarily you actually.

Your way of writing depicts a hefty emotional inbalance regarding the topic.
Unless you’ve never learned any sorts of manners, which is also problematic, but on a general position.

So maybe start properly writing instead of flinging shit around like a monkey and then people are actually willing to properly engage and go in-depth about things.
Because the moment they say ‘no, I don’t think so’ they get battered with shit into their face rather then proper explanations and getting into actual reasonings.

Entirely on your there, nobody else. The only person putting themselves on a pedestal are you, stating that everyone not of your oppinion is simply wrong and incompetent, positioning yourself as having the moral high ground.
Which plainly spoken makes me kinda disgusted at you.
It’s apalling and actually the reason as to why people state ‘we can’t have nice things’.

Why so? (You see, explanations, might do you well to include them in your posts)
Because people either become defensive, which is not conductive to a proper discussion.
Or they become tired and just let it be since nobody wants to interact with a exhausting, arrogant and self-centered person which lacks the ability to look beyond their own personal and extremely limited little world.

@Llama8

and yet there is still a wide range of viewpoints

Yes, because the genre is not very diverse yet and sub-genres haven’t properly formed.
100% true.
Has to do with the complexity of the systems commonly needed and the lack of large-scale engagement of individuals comparatively to other genres at large.

@EmperessPotatoe

If calling out bad behavior is bad, then I don’t know what to tell you. I guess we just suffer in silence? Or maybe we can hold people actually accountable for derailing countless threads with their willful ignorance?

I got a very simple question:
What do you think people are doing here repeatedly… towards you actually?

Many suffer in silence.
Those that actually write out are the ones you’re ripping into willy-nilly though.

That’s kinda telling.

Also, me for example… why do you think I’m ripping into you here so much and not for example Kiadaw despite not fully agreeing with that post? Or Makszi despite simply telling you off rather then providing any reasoning? Or ResplendentEgo despite misunderstanding the whole situation?

Ask yourself… why would I only do it with you?

Maybe you can finally reach an answer that you are the problem here and not everyone else you try to make it out to be.
Fix your writing, start properly asking questions if you’re unsure what someone means, go into details for explanations when someone doesn’t entirely pick up on what you convey and provide proper examples or best-case actual proof. And not flimsy made-up facts saying ‘I did xyz’ without anyone knowing the methodology used to get your results in the first place and then also not revealing what the journey to achieve them even was.

[EmperessPotatoe]

more like people don’t see everything, and not every point is as sharp as you might think thus not worth responding too…

@Kulze

Ok, provide em then, don’t just say ‘trust me bro’ with it.

see? read one line, ran with it and made a bunch of assumptions. I literally described what I did and you still ignored that and asked me to describe it again…ITs still up there for you to read.

@Kulze

So maybe start properly writing instead of flinging shit around like a monkey and then people are actually willing to properly engage and go in-depth about things.

if what I said was incoherent to you, I don’t even know what to think anymore. You pretend to be smart but then say really dumb crap like that.

@Kulze

Because the moment they say ‘no, I don’t think so’ they get battered with shit into their face rather then proper explanations and getting into actual reasonings.

lol people disagree with me daily. the only people who ever get any ire are the ones doing the one line of reading, like you do.

@Kulze

Why so? (You see, explanations, might do you well to include them in your posts)

I explained, you blatantly ignored what I said and then asked for clarification on something I already clarified twice.

@Kulze

Or they become tired and just let it be since nobody wants to interact with a exhausting, arrogant and self-centered person which lacks the ability to look beyond their own personal and extremely limited little world.

yup. just my view. not all the people in chat an in the forums and on multiple websites. not the people who voted on a petition and signed the petition. Not me sending the petition in and hoping for the best.
Just me. Randomly assuming things with no information nor data or other people backing me up.
Just me.
Yup. For sure.

@Kulze

Those that actually write out are the ones you’re ripping into willy-nilly though.

nope. just you. you got called out so you rage emotionally instead of actually reading.

@Kulze

Ask yourself… why would I only do it with you?

I wouldn’t ask that here because I already know. you got called out for attempting to derail the thread. And you didn’t like it, so you derail the thread. Proving my point about the community being it’s own worst enemy.

@Kulze

not everyone else you try to make it out to be.

never once said everybody else.
I just said people like YOU. You are not everybody, are you?
I asked questions, you just didn’t like them. I did ask for details, nobody provided them or often mock me for needing details, so a non-starter there.
I do have proof, it got sent in to EHG…not you. You aren’t the developers…

@Kulze

‘I did xyz’ without anyone knowing the methodology

its a pretty standard method. pretty much every petition is just you asking people if they would sign it after explaining what it is for.
Not hard to understand…and yet you call me ignorant and pretend I am the one not reading, while you constantly project.

@Kulze

also not revealing what the journey to achieve them even was.

I did, you just didn’t bother reading that part because it was inconvenient to your point. It’s not my job to hold your hand and make sure you read everything.

Your whole post is nothing but proving my whole point. The whole topic was about people like you lol.
And now I can safely leave. My point has been made. You don’t care about logic or reason or even reality. You just see what you want to, nit pick things that don’t make sense, make baseless accusations that can’t be made once you read…basically everything comes down to you being emotional and irrational about the issue because you got called out.
You and everybody like you.

See ya. Muting the topic since it got derailed. Deuces.

[DJSamhein]

@EmperessPotatoe

more like people don’t see everything, and not every point is as sharp as you might think thus not worth responding too…

Well, I’m out. There’s no point in continuing to argue with someone that cherry picks comments to reply to and then insults people and says they cherry pick comments to reply to.
This will just keep going in circles and escalating until a mod will come and close the thread, so have fun.

[Kulze]

Yeah, even for me who loves argumenting it’s becoming clear that it’s a worthless conversation.