Arenas need a reworking ASAP. What are the devs thinking? ($$$ obviously)

I mean, if you read the rest of my post after that sentence, you might find out I’m not as biased as you’d like to think. This is actually why I don’t quote people, is because I don’t like to make people think those are the only parts of their argument I paid attention to.

If you look at what I was laying out, I gave a pretty good explanation of why it’s the case that modes like this don’t prosper in staying interesting or holding people’s attention and when that mode would be acceptable and wouldn’t.

So riddle me this: What evidence or argument would you accept that what you want isn’t something other people would generally find fun? What would resolve your disagreement with my position? Set your terms. I’d like to see how you could be convinced. If I’m so biased, surely you’re being objective, right?

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Honestly I think just looking at what endless arena is, with the context of an afk timer in the game, should really just tell the devs everything they need to know about what should be changed to make it better.

5 waves before a break makes no sense when we can’t afk for very long

Having to push from half of what we last hit every time, makes no sense when we cant afk very long

These parts had arguments for them when we could go eat dinner, take a dog outside etc… in the middle of an arena push. Now the design just feels at odds with other parts of the game.

Also yeah, the loot how it exists atm is meaningless. I’d personally love to see it work where each subsequent set of waves is exponentially harder, and we can see a progress bar or something go up that indicates the loot we’d get. It’d make it more exciting, make the competitive side way more exciting, and way less marathoning, and make it fit better with an afk timer that naturally desentivises taking breaks in long gaming sessions (which 100% you have when doing arena).

Current arena sucks tbh.

And none of this is even mentioning the widescreen buff >.>

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It also doesn’t make a lot of sense that it’s a mode that is supposed to be used as a bonus or for leveling that you have to activate with a key. It’s either a challenge mode or it’s content / part of the leveling process. It kind of can’t be both.

I’m fine with them making it more interesting or not, as long as it doesn’t become the definitive best way to grind for anything.

Yeah, those are both good points. I wonder whether LE’s arena is/could/should go through the kind of change that D3’s rifts went through (from requiring specifically “levelled” keys to start/carry on from a specific level of rift to just requiring a generic key to start from x lvls higher than you’d successfully completed). I’m not saying the change should be identical but maybe restarting x waves below what you got to last time instead of 1/2 way.

But I’m not overly fond of arena.

Why? Why does it have to be either a challenge mode or content? Why cant it be the best way to get something?

I promise you I read everything, line by line :grin:
I did not want to seem as someone who ignored some parts of your arguments, its just that part of it stands out to not be accurately, in my opinion. When you say theres no way to make it interesting there is no possible arguments to tell me here, because , as I explained you, its not truth. And thats why I think you are biased, you dont like the mode, You have plenty of others experiences over the years that you did not find fun, but you can not speak for everyone. On the contrary of you I have seen succesfully games with arenas that lasts over 30 minutes, and plenty of people who enjoy it, including me, So I cant be convinced of the contrary.

Your explanation only concerns your own terms, and does not reflect the reality of all players. As I said some people really like modes like this, and you are being resolute to infer that the great majority of the players wont like these kind of things, and honestly, I dont know how you would convince me of that. The only conclusive evidence that could occur would be if the Devs indeed created a thrilling arena, that would be a little bit time consuming (but not like the way it is now, they need to reduce the journey) and if nobody cared about it anyway. We would need to pay to see.

I guess I’d rather lay back and wait to see what’s coming next. I bet people would like and maybe even love a reworked and thrilling & fun & rewarding arena. I hope the devs could see it this way.

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At least you admit that you cannot be convinced. I respect your willingness to admit that, not necessarily that fact itself. If we’re all trying to be reasonable and have a rational discussion, we should make ourselves available to new ideas and evidence. That’s a part of every productive discussion.

Having said that, I think the fact that these are underplayed modes that people complain about constantly (like in the OP) are evidence enough that they don’t work well as content. I hope someday you’ll rethink this and come around to that proposition.

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I mentioned this earlier, but essentially what you would have done if you were to make this the best way to achieve anything in LE is reduced the game down to a single mundane task, that would then also require a long (if not extremely long) period of concentration from the player in order to complete. Players would then be wasting their time not to use it by hours and hours, which means people would play it just to see the content in the game sooner, not necessarily because it was enjoyable or fun to play.

Moreover, it’s not easy to vary or make more interesting because it’s a single task, of killing waves of enemies. Think Monolith, but every node is the same and also doesn’t end for 30 plus minutes. If it had any novelty, it would wear off in two to three attempts. In other words, if you’ve done it, you’ve basically seen what it has to offer. So it would be the ultimate repetitive content. To then all but mandate players keep playing it in order to not waste hours of their time trying to get gold, experience and items would be to make the game ultimately repetitive. This is why I think it would be fine as a challenge to do at the end of the game, but probably shouldn’t be the best way to play the game.

In addition to that, over the long term you’d be changing the attitude about what makes a build viable in the game. Only builds that were able to make it to the latest stages where the rewards were the best in this mode would be considered viable. Unless you make the rewards cap out fairly early on to avoid this, players would be stuck considering any spec they wanted to play that couldn’t do this to be not just suboptimal like a lot of them are now, but actually pointless if they were trying to play at any level of efficiency.

This is not just the case in ARPG’s, by the way. The more simplified any type of game becomes, the more the creators must rely on things like loot, luck and peer pressure to keep the audience engaged. Games like Fortnite and Apex actually bypass this long period of concentration problem by giving you a bunch of random upgrades during each match, but also by randomly seeding your opponents by where each of you chooses to start on the map, so that you feel like you have a high chance of winning a match based on the luck around that decision at the start of each match. In other words, you have a huge incentive to start over again immediately every time you die, which makes you feel the time investment you lost playing the previous match less. This is an almost-malevolently genius model these developers have figured out for how to keep people engaged with what is otherwise an extremely simple formula for a game. Apex, Fortnite, PUBG, all these games are markedly less complex than ARPG’s or even competitive shooters that have come before them, and yet people are more obsessed with them than they’ve ever been.

I personally don’t even think the fact that people play them automatically makes them good content, so much as it demonstrates that developers are manipulating those players psychologically to get them to keep playing as long as possible. There’s no evidence than any fighting or interaction they have during those matches is any more fun than the experiences they could have in other games. In fact, a lot of those games involve just running around and hiding until key moments. It’s evident that you could have a lot more fun interactions with other players playing other games for that same amount of play time.

Just so im not misinterpreting, are you arguing that games people think are fun arent fun, but people are convinced by game design to think they’re having fun, when they’re not, so they think these games are fun?

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More or less. I guess I’d say they’re being tricked into feeling like the games are more fun than they’re actually having.

I’ve argued this before in regards to RNG loot also. There’s a phenomenon called “schedules of reinforcement” that compels you to do certain things compulsively, even if they aren’t necessarily enjoyable, or as enjoyable as they were the first time you did them. It’s a habit of mine to point this sort of thing out because I think games are becoming simpler and less interesting the more developers hone in on how to take advantage of this tendency in humans.

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If someone thinks they’re having fun, are they not having fun? Just sounds a bit liek you’re argument is just ‘Well I don’t see how these games could be fun, but i don’t think people are lying, therefore the games aren’t fun, they’ve just persuaded people they are’

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If you reduce what I’m pointing out in complexity that way, it certainly sounds that way, yes. That’d be pretty absurd if that’s what I was actually arguing. However, I don’t think what I’m actually saying here is a controversial observation whatsoever.

If you go back and look at what I point out in regards to how those games are played, large portions of those matches are spent not really doing anything. And your incentives for starting over involve a lot of random chance.

Take slot machines, for example. Some people are willing to sit in front of those for literal days. Does that make pulling a lever the most fun anyone’s ever had? No, what they’re doing is being influenced by factors other than the mere enjoyment of what they’re doing.

Also, have you ever gone to a party you didn’t want to be at because your friends pressured you into being there? And then maybe you consumed alcohol to take the edge off, like many people do. Was that fun because you ended up doing it for 8, 10 hours? Or were you manipulated into being there?

What ends up being the case is that the relief you feel from getting the rewards from or just getting done doing certain activities gets mistaken for joy or enjoyment retroactively, because your brain has to justify what you were doing up until that point if you’re satisfied with the result. Even though the activity itself was not enjoyable, the reasons you were compelled to do them get reinforced, so you’re encouraged to repeat them in the future. This describes a LOT of things people do compulsively, even though they aren’t necessarily very fun to do.

So then, something actually being fun to do is just a little more complicated than merely being fun because you’re willing to do it.

I don’t think this changes my point that what you’re saying is ‘I don’t find x fun, therefore it isnt fun, these people are just convinced it is but they’re wrong’

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I think your point is to say that I’m saying something other than what I’m saying in order that you can be right and me wrong. So I guess we’re unable to discuss this topic effectively at this point.

I would say however, if you decide you want to look into the point I’m making, check out “Learning: Schedules of Reinforcement” by ByPass Publishing on Youtube. You can also check out the article on Reinforcement on Wikipedia. It covers variable ratio schedules of reinforcement. The one on Operant Conditioning is pretty good also.

If you look into this stuff, it starts to explain all sorts of negative behaviors and bad relationships that are otherwise really weird and hard to understand. Everything from why people play the lottery all the way up to staying in a one-sided romance.

Part of the reason I think people should know about this stuff is because understanding it does seem to give you some resistance to the effects. You can interrupt the cycles of behavior that lead to schedules of reinforcement, if you understand how they work. At least, that’s been the case for me in my life. I learned about this in college and it’s been very helpful to me in avoiding this kind of thing. I intentionally avoid a lot of variable ratio reward based games, or I just don’t look up what rewards I can get so I never end up grinding for them. I also never gamble, period. If I hadn’t learned about this, I might have.

No i understand that stuff. But you’re trying to apply it to apex legends, specifically because your hypothesis has been established by the fact that you personally dont understanx why people could find it fun. But you do you.

Outside of that, what you’re trying to argue also doesn’t really work towards the point you were making towards llama. None of the stuff to do with this has any intrinsic bearing on arena being, or not being, able to be aimed at multiple avenues of gameplay.

Realistically any forced competitive mode generally does badly, and it’s from competition around something you’d do anyway, that good competitive stuff ccrops up. Right now the only people who will push arena, are people who want to push ladder so their name is on a leaderboard. Meanwhile anyone that plays the game for their own sense of progression, doesn’t have any reason to touch it. This makes little sense.

More on to that, is that in the arpg genre specifically, competition has nearly always revolved around the community coming together to optimise, and see who can, do x best/fastest. Arena isn’t a good way to do this. We can even look at the LE community races, where it ended up just being ‘heres a limited skill pool, see what you can do’. That was where the fun was for people, because that’s how this stuff has always, and will always, work.

But sure, please continue to argue that apex legends isn’t fun, in fact its the devs using the same psychological manipulation casinos use to prey on gambling addicts, that just makes people think its fun, when in reality they arent enjoying themselves at all.

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It sounds like you understand and agree with what I’m saying and that my points are valid but you don’t like them, is more or less the issue. Which is fine. I don’t think that’s what this thread or discussion are supposed to be about. And it doesn’t matter to me, either way.

But yes, being compelled to do something because it’s faster or the best way of playing the game or gives the best rewards does actually influence the way people perceive and choose to play the content. This is absolutely unavoidable. Why would you waste tens or hundreds of hours playing the game in the least efficient manner when you’re supposed to use the Arena? And why would you consider any build viable if it couldn’t make it to the latest stages that give the best loot?

I hope that helps. Enjoyed speaking with you.

It might come as a suprise to you, but just like arena champions, dungeons, different monolith nodes, you can have different rewards in different places. That’s generally how arpgs are designed.

Also i can’t emphasise how much I don’t agree with you lol

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I now notice that the OP agrees with me that arenas should be shorter. So the original suggestion was not just that the least complex and singularly repetitive way to play the game be emphasized over other content, but also that it should take less time so that it’s more convenient to complete.

Each of these points probably should’ve gotten more discussion in this thread, looking back on it.

And yet they weren’t because of how he made his points and the language he used around them.

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Yeah I don’t disagree that was a big part of the issue. Unfortunate. You know I try to keep it on the level around here. lol

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