Oh, absolutely right! It’s cumulative, you create trust and yourself some leeway in handling situations. Obviously they don’t need to do it, they can do what they want!
Just is detrimental for EHG if they don’t.
As for metrics… name me a mediocre game which flourishes without major marketing and bad developer communication.
I can tell you a mediocre game which has that communication though and did definitely flourish despite the shortcomings, Starbound is the prime example.
Oh? Which one?
Oh? Yeah… you’re not using a official channel designed from the company… which should only be 1 there anyway, which is their respective news releases, nothing else. Same with feedback, should only be from one position, reddit or the forums, not both. But not the case.
And Mike? Well… how more official do you want info to get? Developer of EHG, active information channel regularly… but this one we should ignore? You don’t get more official then the person where the twitter account provides more information then the official one does?
The person where the streams are literally called ‘developer streams’?
Not official enough for you?
If not for Mike then EHG would be a shit-show in terms of communication, the only reason why they’re basically ‘saved’ on that aspect is him. As said… I hold him in high regards… which doesn’t make it better that it happens that specific way though.
Do you want to know more? Find a list of the leagues on the wiki.
That’s not how gathering objective metrics works. Have you considered the question*'What side effects could explain their success aside from ‘good communication’?* for example?
Is this a correlation or a causality? How do you gather the data? You see, you can have an opinion about the matter, but don’t try to sell this as absolute facts that are proven.
Since I usually don’t follow dev communication and news updates but rather play the game, I can’t provide much data. I only saw a few snippets from Mike’s dev stream, but it actually couldn’t keep me interested.
Your statement was very generalized - “everyone who works for a company and provides from the inside is ‘a official channel’”.
Now, if you take anything that is said in an interview or in a dev talk as an official announcement that is set in stone and can be 100% relied on, that’s on you. Do you have a quote from Mike, verbatim, with all the context surrounding it? Or point me to the specific dev stream in that this was ‘announced’? Then we can see how much a promise/announcement this was.
Nah, the only exception to their plan I find is Abyss, which ended a week early, and I also remember people being annoyed at it.
The ‘modern’ way of their league system with the 13 week timespan (well, 12,5) was implemented after ‘Talisman’ league which was 2.1 where they decided to half the progression time from one to another league.
The old way simply didn’t have the half week until it closed.
GGGs only communication issue is that they said leagues last 13 weeks rather then 12 weeks with a week of pause in-between, but to date outside of Abyss - which was 4 years post release once - it was always upheld, delays happened, reductions didn’t.
You can’t prove causation with communication, only correlation. Much like we couldn’t prove for decades - and still partially can’t - the functionality of depression medication, we only have correlation and it’s all that’s possible to go by.
If you follow games communication you can see a direct correlation with how well a game does and the frequency of their communication. Also the content of said communication matters a lot.
Games which provide clear-cut regular information about the games development and upcoming content as well as clear-cut information about their roadmaps while also following through tend to overall do better then games with a similar quality but radio silence.
Out of sight, out of mind plays a role as well as expectance and also reliability for those cases.
And I’m not selling it as proven facts, I’m saying this is the case. Communicate well and you do well, communicate badly and you do badly. Should be a given since you want to create a loyal customer base, that’s sales 101 and not some rocket science stuff.
Customers stay for 2 reasons: The product is not crap and they feel valued.
So if you provide mildly crappy stuff they at least stay because you’re still valuing them.
Good luck finding a vod from so long ago, Twitch doesn’t save that stuff, so unless someone did intentionally and put it on Youtube you’re out of luck.
Which is the whole damn mess I’m talking about that such Q&A should be officially written down and provided for the future as well as still accessible. Since the vod’s gone but people talked about it when cycles were implemented… is it all now non-viable anymore since the time-limit on providing said proof is gone? Despite being able to infer it from back then to nowadays?
Or should we instead start handling Mike as simply rambling and his answers having no actual value instead?
Because that’s the options, either limit it to the absolute official channels or use Mike’s streams as well for information (which vanishes after the storage time limit of twitch often) and then mess around with what exactly was said and how and why because maybe we missed some hidden context or he was distracted at the moment?
Which way should we take it? EHG has crappy communication and tells us basically nothing or do they give is regular information through Mike?
Because one way we know that corruption 300 is the rough balancing baseline and corruption 1000 is ‘we’ve made a mistake’. The other we can go over all the arguments regularly coming up and say ‘yeah, worthless since it was ‘only’ Mike providing the info’.
12 weeks aren’t 3 months, though, since we don’t have 12 times February in a year. So, how much can you shave off from 3 months to be still acceptable?
It’s closer to 3 months than 10 weeks two days, granted.
If we want to be pedantic, let’s do it right
How is this not stating a fact that has been proven with other games? Isn’t the word “absolute” a bit… well, absolute? Without a doubt?
Take everything in a game with constant development with a grain of salt? You seem to be aware that miscommunication can happen and that caveats exist, that he talks while playing, and not reading from a written statement.
Do they aim for 3 to 4 months long cycles? Probably. Will it always be the case? Probably not. May a studio nowadays, with more competition on the market, adjust their schedule on the fly depending on what other studios announced? Most likely. Have they said that they might change this and monitor the situation? Possible.
This situation reminds me of the outcry to mid-season bug-fixes that changes the balance, where people said that EHG promised not to do it. And when you read carefully, you will find that they wrote something along the line “This stance might change” all along.
Maybe. But from what I saw and found, he doesn’t know everything and points out that certain things might change, that this is their current stance on stuff, etc.
I am 99.9% certain that the stashes will be available as ‘remove only’ like it is the case with 1.0 cycle stash tabs in legacy, so people will not lose any gear stored.
That’s because GGG has 13 weeks cycles, not 3 months ones.
Always had em.
Sometimes longer.
Doesn’t matter how long the timeframe is, if you say you provide it you provide it, what’s the major point you’re trying to make there that that’s not getting into your head?
If you say you do something you do it, simple as that. If you can’t do it for whatever reason you screwed up, take responsibility for it. All there is to it, always was the case, always will be.
Didn’t plan properly? Your fault.
Forgot something? Your fault.
Didn’t know something? Still your fault, research more.
Is it excusable? Absolutely! But first you gotta take responsibility for a mess-up, after a mess-up it can be excused, not taking responsibility though is never excusable, that’s the damn basic of it.
Oh come on… those aren’t even correlated properly to each other!
How’s ‘proper communicating’ the same as ‘providing a clear framework’.
And how the heck are you managing to find fault at ‘providing a clear framework’.
Are you the kind of person going to work ‘some time’ and ‘for money’? Nah, you wanna know what you get into, that’s the friggin baseline.
And for a game the baseline is to give us the relevant information as a player. Which in a cyclic system is ‘how long is that cycle?’ and ‘what exactly happens after the cycle ends?’
Both screwed up by EHG because seemingly it’s not clear how long it is and also they screwed up the - which was expected as a baseline - proper merging over of your tabs to at least have the same amount of tabs in legacy then you had in a cycle.
So basically ‘good luck?’ for information? Knowing nothing?
That definitely sucks, should be outlawed actually in my eyes. How does a customer make a informed buying decision if you get no info about the product?
When does it become fraudulent hence? Or false advertisement?
That train of thought is nothing you wanna go through or even start, leads to customer exploitation left and right… luckily we aren’t quite there, but the software sector is the closest world-wide in achieving it.
Who made that an argument?
You just now, didn’t make that one before for a reason, because it leads to another dubious aspect beyond the current topic even.
You don’t interfere in an ongoing cycle, that’s the whole thing. Future cycles are open for discussion, that’s another topic.
Make the special event completely separate and don’t reset the cycle. I know, you are strongly against the idea of dividing the playerbase, but for special events it’s the standard practice (get inspired by GGG). An abrupt cycle end will upset a lot of players.
I’ve seen multiple people note that Mike rambles and trails off when he’s streaming. It’s VERY likely that he gives off the cuff answers that aren’t set in stone.
Unless a dev stream (which is short for developer stream, not necessarily a stream about development) explicitly states that it’s for announcing new information. I take everything said with a grain of salt.
Give me an official announcement or it’s hearsay.
For example, Fatshark announced “there will be solo mode on launch or with a patch shortly thereafter” a month before Darktide launched in an official public announcement. We’re now closing in on 2 years since launch and they’ve not added Solo mode and haven’t made any further official announcements, only responses here and there that it’s “not in a state they’re happy with” and “not a priority”. Which aren’t official announcements, they’re public replies and can be taken as official, but they’re not set in stone and can change at any time. That is a case to be outraged about (and I am, I’m very vocal on their forums about it lol), but in this case you had one employee (no matter his rank at EHG) say something offhand in a stream from months ago (I presume before the release of 1.0) with no official follow up and you’re taking that as gospel?
That’s a you issue, mate.
Edit: the only official information regarding cycle “length” is “they will start with each major patch, i.e. 1.0, 1.1, 1.2” nothing about “no refreshes” or how long between the major patches.
If they pushed out a major patch in a month the cycle would last a month. That is their official stance. Not an offhand comment from a stream.
You realize that the ‘gospel’ of Mike with ‘3-4 month’ is the superior option compared to ‘no information’?
Doesn’t make it better, makes it worse.
That’s a severe mistake to not provide that when it already is happening. So thanks but I’ll rather stay with the gospel there for the benefit of the doubt, otherwise it’s incompetence and nothing else.
Yea nothing will change for CoF players, other than you having to be in legacy cycle and deal with your stash there. Also some people dont want the arena ladder reset i would imagine. Overall the idea is good but they could just make it an event cycle and run it along the current 1.1 cycle that would make even more people happy.
Yes, and I suspect he probably said it in sufficiently soft language to enable them to do what they’re doing. The human memory is a falible thing & I know he didn’t say “leagues will be no less than 3 months and no more than 4 months”. Which is why official statements are preferred to this kind of almost-friendly chat.
Are you sure about that? I’m sure you’ve got the proof to back up that assertion…
They don’t need to be, but it’s better if they are, expectations can be managed.
Should that be a mediocre game be in a genre I don’t enjoy (& therefore think that all games in it are mediocre), or should it be a game in a genre I do enjoy & have played jlbut just didn’t personally enjoy? 'Cause if it “flourished” then surely it wasn’t mediocre by definition, you just didn’t enjoy it for whatever reason.
He does appear to have a bit of a lack of experience with either nuance, or plans changing. It’s probably a good thing he doesn’t have kids (& I’m not saying this in a mean way) 'cause yhey really throw a spanner in the works.
He can also be both an official and unofficial source at different times during a stream.
Funny you should mentin that, the wiki now has the length of league against each league & there are actually quite a few that are less than 13 weeks. Abyss was 11.42 weeks long (not 12), Talisman, Warband & Tempest were 12 weeks long (though Warbands & Tempest was back when they had separate league mechanics for HC & SC) then (and this is a bit of a list), Expedition, Ritual, Harvest, Metamoprh, Synthesis, Betrayal, Incursion, Besiary, Breach, Essence, Prophecy & Perandus were all 12.4286 weeks long (which as I’m sure you’ve noticed is not 13), Legion was 12.5714 weeks (also not 13) & every other league was more than 13.
Honestly mate, either have kids or interact with them or their parents. It’ll shine a light on what life is like for those of us that don’t have the luxury of living in an ivory tower.
You say that, but there’s an aweful lot of fault/blame being thrown around. Life is not smooth, never has been, never will be. You can’t plan for everything, but that doesn’t make it “your fault”. Shit happens.
Proper communication provides a clear framework. You can’t have one without the other.
Yeah, it’s probably all we have, other than his comments on Discord.
Ok, well that’s just you being an arse, many others accept that things change & can have the mental flexibility & emotional maturity to accept that things change. And yes, some of those are also neurodiverse.
This seems like 1.2 patch is again ”late” because this ’event’ seems like mini cycle with minimal changes.
If EHG had faster (3-month interval) between cycles i could be happier about this ”mini cycle” because then this would be small ”challenge” so the people could play fresh start, continue in legacy or take mini break and come for 1.2 but i have a feeling this is like a ” we are delaying 1.2 but we give these little sprinkles for you.
they simply can’t make this cycle last exactly 3 month, and so with the new cycle start like 8/9 october, when the same day will come the D4 expansion, you should not be influence to much from other games, but launch a cycle in the same week of another ARPG super important drop is simply nosense.
So i guess the cycle 3 will start after the end of this event, and so around 21/22 October, even if i don’t know if two weeks after D4 expansion launch will be enough for let the non super fun of LE join the cycle, but that period is really hard in general, on November come out also the beta of Poe2.
If they could have done it, it would have been great to make this cycle last two months, so as to have a full month of time in practically solitude for the cycle 3, but it’s not the case.
Yes, and it sucks no matter if you do it as a person or as a company. It’s crap behavior.
Umh… you can’t prove non-existence? That’s… not a possibility? You can prove existence though, so at least make a notion towards where it was mentioned?
Quality-wise for the actual gameplay loop. No matter if you personally enjoy it or not.
And without at least half-way decent communication from the devs.
I explained it above. 13 weeks between leagues, before 2.2 it was 1 week ‘pause’ which reduced it to 12. Bad communication but people realized what GGG meant.
Afterwards it’s 12,5 since it’s mid-week where it ends.
Not comparable to what EHG currently does.
Not having to take responsibility for your action is the ivory tower…
Yes, so?
If something goes wrong someone is to blame, or several people.
There’s a difference between taking responsibility and learning from it or simply ignoring it or brushing it off.
It’s obvious that someone’s to blame, that’s a given.
‘Don’t throw blame around!’ why not? I was inflammatory above, I took responsibility for being irritable. Is it excusable? Up to you, nonetheless my mistake, isn’t it?
And ‘shit happens’ is the lazy person’s way out. The prime example on how you avoid responsibility to save your mind from having guilt. Nothing else.
True, I think proper communication goes beyond this basis though.
No worries, I do too.
Not mid-cycle though. Do it for the next, then it’s fine.
Still not enjoyed but I can tolerate it, mid-cycle I can’t since it’s a shitty move screwing over people’s plans.
Has nothing to do with neurodiverse or not, doesn’t make it better either way.
And if ‘emotional maturity’ is the same as ‘rolling over and taking it’ then you’ve mistaken what the term means. And ‘mental flexibility’ meaning ‘accepting that shit happens’ then it’s also not a positive thing I gotta say.
I don’t think either of those terms leads to ‘compromising your integrity’ if used properly, which you didn’t do.
So if you went through all of his statements & none of them gave “an inkling of a reduction”, like, I don’t know, maybe using wooly language? That wouldn’t be proof? You’re quite happy to give absolute statements but don’t want to back them up. And TBF, I wouldn’t want to go back through 1-2 years worth of streams either. But still.
So you’re talking about a subjective thing as though it were an objective thing. Gotcha.
So you accept that the leagues themselves aren’t 13 weeks long. Thanks.
Sure thing bro, 'cause no parent has ever had to face the wrath of a child (like we are here) because stuff happened & plans have had to change. Honestly, having kids is an eye opener, it really does force one to grow up.
Did you? I couldn’t see it.
No, it’s a realist’s way out, it’s how life functions out in the real world.
Nope, never said it was. But it does mean not acting like a child & throwing your toys out the pram because things have changed.
I did, you just don’t like it so you’re ignoring it.
When 2.0 hit, they did not announce how long the two challenge leagues would last. People asked them multiple times - no answer regarding the timeframe, even though GGG staff did answer other parts of the question.
This is a game advertised with “continued development”. This means things are prone to change during the lifetime cycle.
Your informed decision was to buy a product that will change over time. Or to buy/support a product in active development, which in itself is an informed decision that things will change.
I love some customer rights. But I also love it if people consider the consequences of their ‘informed’ decisions - which are rarely as informed as they like to think.
The state of affairs in this case seems to be that the informed decision of people is based on hearsay from some information in a dev stream - feeling entitled because of it - without being actually able to say what exactly was said and how it was phrased.
I agree, it is better. But whenever people start to ramble that stuff absolutely needs to be a certain way, I like to challenge that view, because most of the time, it is nothing more than wishful thinking.
The world/game isn’t doomed if things don’t go the way some people feel it should be. If that would be the case, neither LE nor PoE would have made it out of beta status.
There has been an expectation that Last Epoch would have 3 to 4 months-long leagues, each accompanying a new major update and following the cadence of 1.1. then 1.2 and so on, with each of those releases having the content announced on EHG’s roadmap.
“Ah, but EHG has never explicitely stated that!” - they have seen (here, on their official forum) players stating those expectations over and over and have never bothered to correct them. Saying “ah, but EHG is not going to correct every single wrong thing people say on the forum” is being disingenuos - those were widely seen expectations that the developers could have talked about.
And now they’re doing a cycle reset. Why?
To fix the economy? Too little, too late. It has been too long since the exploits and the number of players around has fallen considerably, it’s unlikely that the remaining ones care that much (or they wouldn’t still be playing). Sending everyone to Legacy is also going to send the duped gold to Legacy, where the economy will also be in shambles (and has been since the previous cycle, with its own gold dupe).
To implement quality of life improvements? Again, the number of players has already fallen significantly, doesn’t appear to be much of a reason to do those improvements now for the few players that remain instead of waiting for 1.2.
To make a big impact and get people back to playing the game, sooner than when they’ll be able to release 1.2? Makes sense - Path of Exile does the same thing - but why reset the current cycle?
IMO, EHG should have done the same thing Path of Exile does, when they get at the end of leagues with few players - they create short events that run in parallel with the league (so no reset for existing characters), allowing people to start fresh in temporary circunstances. They get (small) player spikes without bothering those still enjoying the league.
